GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk4 => Topic started by: antgti on 20 January 2004, 00:17
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Not sure if any of you lot are going, but this sunday santa pod has the first RWYB of 2004 and it might be worth a look if weather is amazingly nice to us (listening to the rain on the window i think it may not) I am going up there with a big convoy of Puntos, (I'm sorry, i used to wn one and my mates still have a few) although one is hiding a 2.0 20v Coupe Turbo engine under the bonnett so should be quick,
I might even take the Diesel up the strip, as long as i get evenly matched, i don't wanna try a skyline cos that would be silly.
So is anyone else gonna be up there then, go on, even if it is cold there will still be a good turn out.
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might make the trip up there if the weather's not too cold!!! Froze my tit's off on Sunday at the Newark meet but still had a damn good time.
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I may well make the trip for that one, its only 35 mins for me.
However, the chances of no rain are probably zero - that place has its own micro-climate!!! It could be bright sunshine and 28 degrees everywhere else, you drive into Poddington and it starts to p!ss it down!!!
We could have a three-way diesel thrash, but after talking to Mr Frosticles at Newark, I don't much fancy my chances! ;D
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why what has he done to his then, whats the spec??
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Its been re-mapped to give him about 190 bhp and approx 300lb ft of torque.
He mentioned sunday that the guy was working on a new program too, so he may well bust the 200bhp mark soon!!
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Would be nice to get to the 200 mark but I doubt it. The new program should give me better fuel consumption and also more power but I've not been told of exact figures yet. When it's done Simon will do a power run in the car to see exactly what it's doing.
It's in at the stealers today having the usual warranty work done (Creaking drivers seat base, Window regulators, Corroding Alloys) But hopefully will be back in my filthy mitts by this evening. Whilst at the Stealers, (Nottingham West Bridgeford) I saw an R32 in Berry Red which by all accounts is extremely rare?? All I can say about it is:- YES PLEASE! ;D
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wouldnt mind a nosey at that but as 'frosticles' said it was bloomin cold on sunday and think ive only just thawed out!!!!, think the weather forcast is a bit pants this weekend and had better spend some time with wifey and kids as i left them behind last sunday!!! he he he lol! :P, but when te weather is better im up for a ride to pod deffo!!!! hey frosticles have u orderes that skoda wiper yet??? ;D
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maybe next month after i've had the chip/exhaust done, Feb. 16th isn't coming quick enough ! :(
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Off to my local Skoda dealers tomorrow as it happens ;D Thanks for the tip. Well good looking mod.
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hope you have a good skoda dealer!! the one round here was crap!!!, if you want the part numbers theres a 'skoda wiper thread' somewhere on here!! (may have 2 go back a few pages!!) ;D
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200bhp out of a diesel? me thinks that will go bang very soon! :o
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The PD Diesels come out of the factory "Seriously de-tuned" The 150 is capable of running 200bhp all day without problems. It's the clutch and gearbox that will suffer the most. (Mine's slipping when very cold)
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Seriously detuned? i doubt it, 150bhp is very tuned for 1.9 diesel lump.
The problem with tuning these engines is boosting the turbo, how long will the engine last?
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UPsolute who re-mapped my car have quoted about 5% drop in life expectancy for the engine when driven hard all the time. So it will still be good for 200k+ These diesels cruise along at such low revs that the wear factor on the engine is a lot less than a high revving petrol. Like you say though, Turbo life may well suffer.
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not turbo life, engine bearing life and melted pistons.
using forced induction, especially more boost(i believe its already quite high on the diesel) will certainly lead to much shorter engine life.
i wouldn't believe any tuning company, as they aren't gonna tell you that the engine won't last.
be wary ;)
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who gives a toss, the man will have sold his tuned diesel by the time any serious miles are on the clock and moved on to a mk5. by which time he will have had his fun,(which i would have thought would be a lot of fun with that bhp in a diesel) and then some other mug who is paying a lot less for it second hand can pick up the repair bill later on. so come on live a little, buy it use it and deal with the consequences later, live for today and sod tomorrow, cos when GPS speed cameras come in in 8 yrs time we won't be able to have cars like these.
Forced induction is the way to go, look at the torque level of a small capacity diesel to that of a big old petrol guzzling technologically out of date V6.
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actually that sounds quite b!tchy, no animosity intended. Us diesel boys get quite protective
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Diesel car is never gonna match the v6 :D ;)
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oh yeah, so the v6 diesels, are they close enough
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The straight 4 aint bad.
The problem with diesel is its never gonna produce the bhp a petrol can produce, unless you crank up the turbo till it melts the pistons.
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the only thing i will say is i am a realpetrol head, i have had all manor of ford XR, Gt Turbo Punto, Punto HGT and i loved them. Petrol has had 30 years of development and i mean serious performance development. Diesel performance has only had 10 yrs of real development. So give it another 5 yrs and the diesels will be something special. Give a new diesel ago for a couple of weeks and you will change your mind.. My mate has got a VR6 Corrado and even he admits that there isnot much in it between his and my 130 diesel. Once i have got it chipped then i may have the edge.
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The problem with diesel is its never gonna produce the bhp a petrol can produce, unless you crank up the turbo till it melts the pistons.
Why is that a problem??!!
When you put your foot down at 80 miles an hour in 6th (or 5th if you have a 5 speeder) it isn't bhp that moves you along, its torque, of which the diesel engines have an abundance.
Its worth bearing in mind that the figure 'bhp' is simply a by-product of torque and gearing.
The reason these diesel engines 'only' produce 150 bhp is because of the limits of the engine speed. Were a diesel engine to rev much higher (and providing the torque curve remains flat) the bhp figure would go through the roof.
Bhp is a much talked about figure because people perceive it as a tangible thing. The fact is, its simply a by product of two other measureables; in fact, there is a problem directly measuring horsepower of modern day internal combustion engines because they produce rotary motion not linear motion, and unless the engine is geared down, the speed at which they do work (time and distance or RPM) is too great for practical direct measurement of horsepower. So all those dyno curves we see are actually a measurement of torque with the correct formula applied to calculate horsepower
To put it into real terms, if we were both travelling along a motorway side by side at 80 miles an hour, I was doing 2200 rpm and you were doing 3500, your bhp figure will be higher than mine. This is simply because you are carrying a higher engine speed, yet it has nothing to do with your engine's ability to accelerate - that is defined by the torque your engine is producing at that given engine speed. The fact that mine produces more torque would mean that I would accelerate harder than you, regardless of what bhp figures were.
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I concur ;)
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I'll going to santa pod on sunday, i will be good to see a few dubs blast down the strip
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Ah the good old bhp debate.......misguided fools!!!! The real power is measured in torque (ie accelleration through the gears) The more torque, the better the accelleration. Guess Mr VR6 has never been in a good PD?
Anyway, as AndiGTi says, By the time any problems do occur then I will have moved on to maybe a MK5 so it won't be my problem any more. If you check out the UK-MK4 forum there are plenty of chipped diesels running very good bhp with no reports of engine failures. Turbo's, clutches and boxes are a diferrent story though.
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Sorry, Forgot to reat what S11 EPS said above, Very well said, That should put an end to this BHP subject. Now.........where's Santa Pod again? he he
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Sorry lads but that is BOLLOX.
Torque is almost useless without BHP, torque is only useful once you have built up some road speed. The engine will rev much quicker with more BHP.
Imagine it like this-
You can have a very long bar to undo a tight nut, this bar will give you lots of torque, but if the person that is using the bar is a little weakling then it will still be hard to undo the bolt. That is the difference between BHP and torque, you can have torque but you still need power. So an engine with lots of torque will accelerate very slowly 0-60 if it does not have a very high power output.
Diesel engines have torque because they need a long stroke for the compression cycle, this is simply because diesel is not as easy to ignite compared to petrol, hence why petrol engines will always produce more power. Diesel engines are also very slow without a turbo, i think that says it all.
This is why a diesel engine will be good 30-70 but not as good 0-60.
I think some of you chaps are getting a bit carried away with the torque thing, i'm not knocking the diesel, its definately a very nippy motor, but i can't see them overtaking the petrol engine for performance.
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The figure that most performance parts manufacturers quote is brake horsepower (BHP) increase. This is probably the most widely used term for describing how well (or not) that an engine is performing. While the BHP figure is a good basis to determine how well an engine is performing, it is not the best to indicate how strong the engine is. BHP indicates the rate at which an engine will produce power, i.e. the more BHP the quicker you can move through the rev range while on the road. The other (and ultimately more important) figure to know is the torque output. Torque is a measure of energy transmitted at an angle perpendicular to a point of origin, or turning force generated at the crank.
So, what is the difference? Well, the more torquey an engine, the easier it will be to tow heavy loads, overtake at motorway speeds and drive uphill, etc.. The more BHP, the quicker you will be able to accelerate or change speed. One of the lesser know facts amongst the automotive world is the difference between petrol and diesel engine cars. What you will normally find with petrol cars is that the power (BHP) and torque (lb/ft) figures follow each other quite closely. For example, an Mk2 GTI 8V Golf has a stock power output of 112BHP and torque of about 120lb/ft. Diesel engines however, follow a different trend. The process of burning diesel produces more energy than petrol, but has been deemed somewhat less desireable because of higher emission levels (until recently) and higher noise levels. Diesel cars can usually produce torque figures that are around double their power figures. For example, the new Passat 2.0 TDI produces 130BHP and over 200lb/ft torque. What you tend to find is that a petrol engine will have more power than a diesel engine of similar displacement and aspiration, but the torque delivery is totally the other way round. This is why the Mk4 TDI kit car caused so much of a stir in the WRC, where its 300lb/ft engine was a cause for concern amongst its predominantly petrol based competition. Uphill, there was no stopping it.
Diesel technology has progressed over the last couple of years, meaning emissions are now at an all time low and in some cases lower than some petrol engines. But they are still quite noisy. Manufacturers seem to be stuffing their diesel cars full of sound proofing, which only reduces the power to weight ratio of their cars. Modern cars are getting heavier, not lighter, but a lot of this is due to ever changing laws meaning more and more safety features. Safety is a big seller of cars. Fortunately, car manufacturers are making their engines more powerful to cope with the extra loads, and this seems to be an even bigger seller!
So, when the time comes for you to buy a new car (you won?t be selling the GTI though, right?) would you consider a diesel? Just think of the bags of torque at your disposal. Improved fuel economy. ARE YOU MAD? IT?S A DIESEL! Get back in your GTI and go for a long drive.
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not getting involved in this dispute im afraid, i know the diesels are bloody quick!!!, im a low power petrol model so i cant say nowt!!! lol (till i get a boost of power from some where ............) ;D
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I do agree with jdrowen.
However the reason the new diesel engines are so good is obviously the torque they produce but also the high brake horsepower.
BHP is linked to the size of the bang in the combustion chamber, torque is linked to the stroke of the engine(or leverage it produces). Lots of leverage is pointless without any power to push it.
Diesels will always be limited by engine speed because of the very high compression pressures.
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they're still good though :-*
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Sorry lads but that is BOLLOX.
Torque is almost useless without BHP, torque is only useful once you have built up some road speed.
I'm sorry if you think its bollox, but its basic physics mate.
HP = (torque X rpm) divided by 5252
Road speed has nothing at all to do with it, its all about engine speed. What gets your car off of the line is torque, not power, as Power is dependant upon the engine speed (road speed is irrelevant) and the torque of the engine at that particular engine speed.
As an example, at an engine speed of 1900, where my car produces 236lb ft of torque, I am producing 85hp. Your car will be producing (a bit of a guess here, I'm sure you'll have the figures to correct me) somewhere in the region of 150lb ft of torque, therefore your engine will be producing only 43 hp at that engine speed.
Where our engines differ is that my torque pleateaus at that point meaning only one factor of the above equation, revolutions, increases my horsepower to its maximum.) Once my torque figure starts to decrease (before the point of maxium power) it is only the increase in revolutions involved that maintain and increase the power, to its peak figure of 150hp.
Whilst a petrol engine might ultimately have less torque, its a much steeper curve (meaning it increases slower, but for longer) and the formula above dictates it will produce a higher horsepower figure, as it has an extra 2000 rpm within its rev range and its peak torque figue is higher up that rev range.
If you manipulate the above formula will see that the horsepower figure of an engine wll only ever be greater than that of the torque figure once an engine speed of 5252 rpm has been passed. Bearing in mind our diesel machines do not rev that high, it is not surprising that the power is well down, compared to the torque figure
I think some of you chaps are getting a bit carried away with the torque thing, i'm not knocking the diesel, its definately a very nippy motor, but i can't see them overtaking the petrol engine for performance.
No-one's getting carried away, the simple fact is that the amount torque your engine has is one of two factors (the other being maximum engine speed) that will determine how much power your engine produces.
Where people get carried away is with power, because if you have no torque, a high power output is only achieved with a high rev limit, which for everyday driving is useless. Hence we don't all drive F1 cars that have approximately 270lb ft of torque, but due to a 18,000 rev range are able to produce 950 bhp.
Secondly, diesel already has overtaken petrol for performance - as much as the 1.8t turbo boys won't like to admit it, other than than the 0-60 benchmark (which is still debateable as many magazines have reported a sub 7.5 second time for the diesel) the PD150 is quicker than the 1.8t in all the in-gear benchmarks.
This has the potantial to turn into an argument and go backwards and forwards (in which I see no benefit to, as we've already stated our beliefs), so I suggest that anyone interested goes onto a search engine and searches for sites concerned with this.
Personal preference will come into whether you prefer a torquey engine or one with a higher final horse power figure. Personally for the journeys I do everyday I prefer one that sits at 2200 rpm when sat at 80 miles per hour, that doesn't require a down-change to accelerate quickly, and its torque that makes that happen.
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let's end this here, diesels smell like tractors, end of story.
*runs off fast* :P :P :P
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Hail S11 EPS. here endeth the discussion!
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well as i said i aint getting into disscussions with this as im a slooowww boy (petrol!!!) yeah these diesels are quick and will whoop my ass any day but each peep has there own theory on power/torque/bhp etc, i havent got a clue to be honest!!! if i get in it and cant move in the seat under accelration its fast!!! thats how i decide!!!, unfortunately i have to rely on my 8v for a bit of this as the mk4 dont do alot till youve got it wound up then it dont feel fast as youve fell asleep by then!!! lol ;D ;D ;D
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;D
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sorry,
The only way to end this argument,( which i feel pleased with cos i never had a post with so much responce) is as Harry Hill would say to have a big bundle.
Now the only way to do this is Santa pod, Mr big Bollox GolfVR6 bring it on, I challenge you to a qtr mile, you vs a Diesel. I will do it on Sunday if you want as its gonna be a dry day and i will be there, I THINK MY 130 WOULD DO WELL. BUT TO BE FAIR IT SHOULD BE A 150 DIESEL VS YOU or even Mr frosticles as his is quicker.
Then we can see exactly what a Diesel can do. If they are slow then you win and look the daddy. If not then,,,,,,,, ummh,,,,, i don't know,,,,,, something that would annoy you,,,,,,,,,yeah thats it ,,,,, you ave to go and buy a diesel. So both ways you're a winner, one way you get to look the daddy, the other you get yourself a better car.
IF DIESELS ARE CRAP COME AND PROVE IT!!!!!!!
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I'd like to see that, VR6 being beaten by a diesel.
Talk to the hand
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Secondly, diesel already has overtaken petrol for performance - as much as the 1.8t turbo boys won't like to admit it, other than than the 0-60 benchmark (which is still debateable as many magazines have reported a sub 7.5 second time for the diesel) the PD150 is quicker than the 1.8t in all the in-gear benchmarks.
Not strictly true. The 1.8T petrol unit (150bhp) is massively detuned unlike the diesel unit which is quite tuned already.
The petrol unit is easily producing 225bhp in the S3 and TT, and thats from factory.
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Petrol engines are faster than diesel engines because its better to produce your peak torque at a higher rpm.
;D
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Oh really?
Well seeing as you're clearly passionate about Audi's, lets use them as an example, in particular The 20v engine as used in the UR Quattro and the S2 coupe (both very quick cars).
Based on your comment above, its peak torque figure must be high, right? Do you know at what engine speed peak torque arrives?
I'll tell you.
1950 rpm
That would be 1000rpm above tickover, some 5250 rpm short of its red line and 4250 rpm short of its peak power figure.
So, how does that work then?
Like I said, you think you're right, I think I'm right, and we can go backwards and forwards quoting all manner of sh!t to prove our points.
So, in the interests of geting back to the original thread, lets just agree to disagree.
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I can't comment if thats true. However the Audis you quote are turbo charged so they will maintain the peak torque for a lot longer than 1950rpm.
I am just quoting off the website you probably copied all your information off.
;D
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getting back to the original topic, how about a trip to Santa Pod or maybe one of the show's this summer to put these challenges to the test?
could have a shoot-out at GTI Festival :)
http://www.golfgti.co.uk/viewfutureevents.asp?eventID=35
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Can i ask where you get your info from?
The normally aspirated 20v engine doesn't reach its peak torque until at least 4000rpm.
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Whats up GOLFVR6,,,,
You
YELLA?
The challenge was there, yet no responce. :P
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If ya like!!!! :o
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Oh really?
Well seeing as you're clearly passionate about Audi's, lets use them as an example, in particular The 20v engine as used in the UR Quattro and the S2 coupe (both very quick cars).
Based on your comment above, its peak torque figure must be high, right? Do you know at what engine speed peak torque arrives?
I'll tell you.
1950 rpm
That would be 1000rpm above tickover, some 5250 rpm short of its red line and 4250 rpm short of its peak power figure.
So, how does that work then?
Like I said, you think you're right, I think I'm right, and we can go backwards and forwards quoting all manner of sh!t to prove our points.
So, in the interests of geting back to the original thread, lets just agree to disagree.
YES the peak torque is about 2000rpm, BUT the turbo charged petrol engine you quote also maintains this torque for most of the rev range.
SO its better to have your peak torque at a higher rpm, its OK to reach it quickly, its if the engine can maintain it.
;D ;D
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Peak torque at higher rpm = More Power
HP=torque*rpm/5252
Hence petrol engines are better than diesel engines ;D
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Can i ask where you get your info from?
The normally aspirated 20v engine doesn't reach its peak torque until at least 4000rpm.
The UR Quattro and the S2 coupe were turbocharged though, not normally aspirated. I didn't need to go on a website to find that information.
Like I have said numerous times now, I'm not interested in arguing, as neither of us will agree with the other. You continue to come back and argue, in which there is no point, as I'm not going to agree with you.
I present you with Physics, which you argue.
I present you with an true-life example of something that destroys your own comment, and you argue back again.
So what's the point? You seem insistent on arguing regardless of the information in front of you.
I always thought you were a bit blinkered to anything but the VR6 engine, but your insitance that your car still remains top of the game 12 years after its launch and the same period of Golf development, that isn't blinkered, its plain ignorant. :-*
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BOLLOX
I have just quoted the formula YOU QUOTED to prove that petrol engines are faster than diesels.
Enough said
Argument over
:-*
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You should try researching your info before copying it from another website ;D
sussed :-*
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in fact, there is a problem directly measuring horsepower of modern day internal combustion engines because they produce rotary motion not linear motion, and unless the engine is geared down, the speed at which they do work (time and distance or RPM) is too great for practical direct measurement of horsepower.
Thats the only thing I've copied from a website, because I couldn't be bothered to type it all out.
The other stuff is from Physics textbooks I have from when I did my degree.
So how does it not work? What is yor example?
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right i think the gti thing what jv has mentioned at santa pod will be a good do, i deffo be up for that will be july so hopefully will be 'non freezin' weather!! hey may have found the fund to get that nitrous by then!! lol ;D
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Hey Kniterider, You want an argument?
Hey,
I bet my nitrous is quicker than yours........
only joking,
well since the fabulous TOMRC there has never been such a good thread, thank you all for joining in, so is anyone going tomorrow??
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May still go, depends on weather.
You going?
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We still on about this??????? Only been away for a day ::) Nevermind! Won't be able to make Santa as Little madam's not well. Will be there later in the year though if anything's organised?
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in fact, there is a problem directly measuring horsepower of modern day internal combustion engines because they produce rotary motion not linear motion, and unless the engine is geared down, the speed at which they do work (time and distance or RPM) is too great for practical direct measurement of horsepower.
Thats the only thing I've copied from a website, because I couldn't be bothered to type it all out.
The other stuff is from Physics textbooks I have from when I did my degree.
So how does it not work? What is yor example?
I'm not sure with what i am disagreeing with. You said HP doesn't matter its torque that matters, NOT TRUE
As you have quoted HP=torque*rpm/5252
You cannot have lots of torque without any HP at all, unless the engine only goes to 2000 revolutions. As you have shown HP and torque are related.
If torque is high at a high RPM then the car will be fast, for this to happen the BHP must also be high.
SO WHAT MAKES AN ENGINE POWERFUL IS HIGH TORQUE AT HIGH RPM.
The problem with diesel engines is, the torque is created from a long stroke , this will lead to a very high compression ratio which is necessary to ignite the diesel, in turn will make the maximum engine speed very limited hence not a lot of power.
Do you disagree with any of that?? :D
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SO WHAT MAKES AN ENGINE POWERFUL IS HIGH TORQUE AT HIGH RPM.
Totally agree. The higher up the rev range the torque is produced, the more horsepower an engine will develop. Power only starts to trail off when the torque curve falls faster than the rpm's increase.
The problem with diesel engines is, the torque is created from a long stroke , this will lead to a very high compression ratio which is necessary to ignite the diesel, in turn will make the maximum engine speed very limited hence not a lot of power.
Again, I totally agree. The long stroke of the diesel engine limits the rev range of the engine, so regardless of the amount of torque an engine produces it will only be as powerful as the rev range allows.
I don't think I've ever said horsepower is not important. All I've tried to get across is that a massive bhp isn't the only factor in creating a fast car and people should not assume that a low power figure means a slow car (in the case of a diesel).
That is reflected by comparing the in gear times of my PD150 with, for example, a Civic type R. That has a third as much power more than mine, but as its engine's output (torque) is produced much hgher up the rev range, all this power is produced 6000rpm+ So, how does that translate to its in-gear times? It doesn't see which way I go!
To summarise, Power is a figure that reflects an engines capability to repeat its output (torque) over time (rpms). Due to the requirements of diesel iginiting (as you said) my engine is not capable of reproducing that output over such a long period of time (rpms). that doesn't mean diesel cars are slow, it just means we can't take advantage of that output over such a long rev-range, we just need to grab another gear!
If we agree on all that, then I don't see what we're arguing about either!
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thats a good few points but when is everyone gonna go santa pod then!! 8)
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I didn't make it today, as I was cleanin' instead of racin' but we'll defintely have to meet up there very soon. I'll check out their site and get a list of evens and the dates, I'll publish them and we'll see when everyone can make it ;)
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Just had a quick look on www.santapod.com (http://www.santapod.com) and checked out the list of events.
There's RWYB's on pretty much every sunday all through Feb and March.
I reckon our best bet is the VW Big Bang meet, the weekend of May 1st to May 3rd.
What d'ya reckon?