GolfGTIforum.co.uk
General => General discussion => Topic started by: oldmanmille on 30 November 2006, 16:00
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Sorry if this has already been covered but I can't find it anywhere!
I have had a Mark 3 GTi 8v golf for about two years now and it has never ever let me down and it is great. Even had it on Oulton park when i cooked brakes on the Clio 172 I was using, and it was only 12 secs slower than the Clio. It handles great for standard suspension and is very smooth on the road. Performance isnt shattering but is OK.
I now also have a Mark 1 with a 2.0 8v conversion with modded head and cams etc. Anyway, my question is: Why does the mark 3 get a slagging? What am i missing from mine that I am unaware of!
Just for information as it has puzzled me for some time now :huh:
I am thinking of getting a Mark 2 also now as I think I have the VW bug :rolleyes:
Cheers, John
ps: Anyone at Oulton Park on the 8th? If so, give me a holler as I am there with my lad as he is first timer for track days and we are trying out the recently purchased Mark 1.
Anyone else for trackdays? Cars and/or bikes? I'm looking to beat my bike time at Oulton of 2secs, so wish me luck :laugh:
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In standard form the Mk3 has a soft suspension and therefore does not handle as well as the earlier Mk's.
They are also heavier. So to compensate they upped the power of the 2.0 litre 16v to 150bhp over the Mk2's 139bhp.
Overall the Mk3 is the better car but it gets slated because of the weight and handling.
You cant get ABS and air-con in a Mk1 or 2 Gti. :smug: :grin:
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2secs is a pretty good time
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The mk3 came at a time when the hot hatch was a dirty word for insurance companies and so it was built for comfort rather than performance, it also came about when the safety standards changed so in order to satisfy the tests it became heavier due to reinforcement etc. In reality the 8v mk3 should never have been badged a GTI but from what I can gather it was done purely as a marketing tool and to give VW a representative in the "sports car" market. :huh:
VW knew they got it wrong at this point and tried to bridge the gap between the 8v and the VR6 by upping the power and putting out a 16v version.
This bit is purely my opinion and it's not a dig at anyone, :rolleyes: but personally the styling and the looks of the mk3 doesn't even compare to the mk1 & mk2. :wink: As I say, that's my opinion and if you disagree with me then I'm sorry, but you're wrong. :laugh: :laugh:
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I think it was the drastic change in shape thats done the most of the damage. Cars were goin away from the boxy squareness of the mk1 and 2 and the mk3 was the outcome. That on top of the extra weight, under powering and rubbish ride at first.
I grew up with the mk3 as the new gti and therefore always wanted one. Its a quality car thats just very different to what went before it.
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You cant get ABS and air-con in a Mk1 or 2 Gti. :smug: :grin:
Yes you can
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MK3 in standard form is sloppy, underpowered, overweight, and ugly. It shouldn't really wear a gti badge, if we are all honest. VW pulled a real stinker in terms of the mk3 GTI and paid for it, as they are only now getting their name back for producing a good gti again (the mkV) Too much emphasis was created on comfort.
Edit: you can tell gibby and i have the same book. :cool:
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Edit: you can tell gibby and i have the same book. :cool:
and that i have a mk3 :grin:
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Daz - come on then tell me! Topher said the same thing and he came up with a Rallye, which I'm sorry is not a GTi - its better like the VR6 is better etc.
I have always said I prefer the shape of the Mk 2. But will probably never have one.
I like my Mk3 as it is and wouldnt change to any other Mk.
(thats not strictly true as I am planning some changes to mine! :laugh:)
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VEry few of them came with air con, but some did have it, they were the run out models, I.E. G & H plates. (was usually the valvers)
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What am i missing from mine that I am unaware of!
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Anyone at Oulton Park on the 8th? If so, give me a holler as I am there with my lad as he is first timer for track days and we are trying out the recently purchased Mark 1.
You'll find out on the 8th :smug:
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I like all golfs, every mark. I have driven one of each aslo, I dont not like the Mark 3 i just like others better.
My dad currently has a mark 3 8v, which i was insured on for about 6 months, he is happy with it, just depends what you want out of your car. but he is 50 and wont me racing round b roads on a sunday afternoon. where as I would be, in my mark 2
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VEry few of them came with air con, but some did have it, they were the run out models, I.E. G & H plates. (was usually the valvers)
Now come on ya dont get away that easy! Air-Con and ABS!
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In standard form the Mk3 has a soft suspension and therefore does not handle as well as the earlier Mk's.
They are also heavier. So to compensate they upped the power of the 2.0 litre 16v to 150bhp over the Mk2's 139bhp.
what the fook book did u get that from len?? :laugh: :laugh: how is an engine thats 200cc bigger in a heavier car with only 11 bhp more a compensate issue?? if that was the case why did they REDUCE the power output from an increased engine size in the 8v....
agree with the fact vw f00ked up... end of...
only thing i like about mine is how much i paid for it and how well the engine goes.. and the v r ar noise... down sides, handlin not the best even thought its uprated.. brakes scarey, and its not exactly pleasing on the eye now is it... lol
:laugh: :laugh:
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No book Gaz, just simple logic! :grin:
I said compensate, not fully compensate! :smug:
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feck me len... its a good job your here... i reckon id jack the site in if you werent here with all your interesting articles :grin: :grin: :grin:
at least theres some one to have so good old biatchy debates with... :tongue: :tongue: :tongue:
ive even used the right friggin smiley old man
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hey I do me best Gaz! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
was a bit like splitting hairs! :grin:
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anyway back on topic.....
mk1, with rallye running gear, vr6 powered with supercharger, and a few subtle mods... job done.. my ideal vw.. even though it wont happen for me... lol
:tongue:
best of all worlds i reckon, oh go on then, stick a turbo on it as well so its got some relation to the mk4 clan... even better...
:grin: :grin:
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See mine would be very simple.
A Mk 2 body with an Mi16 engine in it! :laugh:
No I'm serious actually! A 1.9 liner block with larger valves, 2 twin choke Webers, decent cams and an electronic dizzy. No ECU! 300bhp thank you!
Simple and fast with no bloody electronics!
Huge discs with Wilwood calipers.
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So it compensated, by still being slower, and still having a lower power to weight ratio... Good compensation.
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i think at the time the heading was "golf loses its balls" when autoexpress or something similar reviewed the mark 3 8v when it first came out.
i think you have to go from driving a mark 3 8v every day then back in to a mark 2 16v to see what its all about. i know its a different kettle of fish but really it shouldnt be
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My personal opinion on this one,
MK1 was the prototype, basic but fun to drive even in 1.6 guise.
MK2 was when they got it right fast, light, comfy and good looking.
Mk3 pig on rollerskates and built like a tank. Frantic modification from VW to make it sellable.
Mk4 Too new skool euroboxy
Mk5 never driven one so don't know :)
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not a fan of mk1's but i wouldnt mind one
mk2's mk3's. some mk4's are my fave's :smiley:
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I'd love a Mk1 but the wife wouldn't let me have one, no power steering and not "modern" enough.
My overall fave is the Mk2, good looks, decent engines, handles well, goes really well.
I've had a Mk2 16v and a Mk3 16v, and I'd say, if you want comfort and a more modern look, go for the Mk3, but for raw driving fun, the Mk2 16v is much better.
Mk4; look modern, 1.8T engine is good and tunable, but the car as a whole, not to my taste.
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Well, here's my two pence' worth :laugh:
It's true, it does depend on what you're after. Even the mk2 16v, with "only" 139bhp is hardly a hot hatch my modern standards - so perhaps it's a bit unfair to judge the mk3 along the similar vein.
In my case, I think the mk3 was a little underpowered and it needs some work to make it look fantastic. Then again, look at Golfpro's example - they can look good ;)
I think if you want an out & out performance car, perhaps mk1 or 2 is the way to go - comfort with power mk4 and 5, and perhaps a mk3 just to be different.
Is it all just horses for courses...?
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Well, that opened a discussion didn't it :smiley: Thanks for all the input guys. I'm looking forward to the 8th at Oulton and all will be revealed - I'm really looking forward to seeing how it compares with my Scooby, Clio 172 and of course my faithful mark3 :wink:
Neaty mentioned his dad at 50 not being boy racer, or words to that effect. Well, I'm 51 and have never let age affect me, although I don't do the speed thing on the road as much these days, as the track is best suited for those games!
Anyway, thanks again for everyones input and comments, no offence taken on the Mark 3 as if i was to tell you I had a Vectra Estate 3.0 CDTi and a Vectra SRi 150 and a Vectra GSI, then i'm sure I might just get some further comments..... :grin:
I think I need a Mark 2 though by the sounds of things.....
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In my case, I think the mk3 was a little underpowered and it needs some work to make it look fantastic. Then again, look at Golfpro's example - they can look good ;)
Why thank you! Means a lot that!
If your hitting the track in it then a mk2 valver is a good start. But for an extra added bonus one with a vr6 lump added, or a 20vt will eat up lots and lots!
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So it compensated, by still being slower, and still having a lower power to weight ratio... Good compensation.
Is it slower? I have never checked the figures! I'm sure you can tell me Slick! :grin:
11bhp is some small compensation. I believe they also changed the gear ratios and the final drive???????
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Neaty mentioned his dad at 50 not being boy racer, or words to that effect. Well, I'm 51 and have never let age affect me, although I don't do the speed thing on the road as much these days, as the track is best suited for those games!
yea he just isn't that bothered about having a lightening quick car, and that 8v has a suitable amount of grunt for motorway cruising
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ive driven them all so i can comment fairly (lol well almost as i have a mk2) the mark 1 was an awesome car which imo was the best handling , just let down by power and style (easily rectified as alot of peeps have) the mark2 is the best all rounder and has proved itself to be one of the most reliable cars of its era , just look how many good ones are out there and still going strong! not many cars can claim that from the 80-90's , the mark3 was a bad move , it drives too much like a family car , its fate was sealed by the times rather than bad making , vw like the rest of the companys toned down the gti's due to joy riding and high insurance , bad economy etc. the mark 4 was agian partly due to the times , safety was the main thing when they made these and it shows , the things a tank but it lost the light weight feel all golfs should have and the handling too , im sure audi were in there for the day or somin , has so much in common with there boring cars. the mark 5 is what golfs should be! awesome to jump in a modern car that feels like old gti's were , if i had the cash id buy one now , as i dont ill have to make do with the second best one.
so my order is:
1st: mk5
2nd mk2
3rd  mk1
4th  mk3
5th  mk4 (great engine though! just in wrong shell :laugh:)
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To be fair to the mk3 they did have to stick a cat on it (abit like ramming a pair of socks up your exhaust pipe), however that doesn't excuse the sloppy handling and the weight gain. Do think the back end on the mk3 is alright but they got the front end wrong.
Now the mk2 handles well is nice and light, with 16v is no slouch and I reckon for a car of 15 years plus it doesn't do to badly again the modern competion, and it is a car that with stands alot of abuse. After all how many 205 gti do you see now, apart from if you work at a breakers.
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Nobody has mentioned the mk3 in vr6 form :undecided:
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MK1 s are purest of the form but slowly rotting away
MK2 they got the mix dead rite but now are slowly getting rarer
MK3 big heavier bit slower and not as GTI as the otehr 2 but prices are geting cheaper so attitudes may change
and yes it is 7am an no ive not been to bed yet :laugh:
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Nobody has mentioned the mk3 in vr6 form :undecided:
Probably because he asked about the gti's. :rolleyes:
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True, but we should really compare the top of the range for each model, otherwise its not fair :grin:
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In that case Corin the Rallye or G60 would win! :rolleyes:
No we are comparing like to like! :tongue:
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MK1 s are purest of the form but slowly rotting away
MK2 they got the mix dead rite but now are slowly getting rarer
MK3 big heavier bit slower and not as GTI as the otehr 2 but prices are geting cheaper so attitudes may change
 and yes it is 7am an no ive not been to bed yet :laugh:
hardcore dejavu
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Now the mk2 handles well is nice and light, with 16v is no slouch and I reckon for a car of 15 years plus it doesn't do to badly again the modern competion, and it is a car that with stands alot of abuse. After all how many 205 gti do you see now, apart from if you work at a breakers.
aye i owned a 205 gti for 7 years , and compared to the reliabilty of my golf , it was s**t!!! , given i owned it before the golf too as well that says it all imo , the pug had 88k on it when i got it and i replaced soo much on it through the years i had an A4 folder full of reciepts , now my golf has 168k on the clock , last two mot's its gone through with out a problem and is still as strong as an ox , ive not had to do much work on it either. says it all imo about the mk2 :)
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In that case Corin the Rallye or G60 would win! :rolleyes:
No we are comparing like to like! :tongue:
Maybe Len, but those cars aren't actually UK spec as such :laugh:
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Maybe Len, but those cars aren't actually UK spec as such :laugh:
Except of course the Rallye SE which was made specifically for the UK market. Ok, it's LHD still, but clocks are still mph.
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Thanks Gibby! I nearly had to agree with Corin then! :laugh:
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But can we really count left hookers? :kiss: :laugh:
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Hmmmmm fair point really! To me they can never be considered native!
But then what Golf is made here?
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There was also a mk3 vr6 synchro made for the continent (not UK), i think this had the 190bhp engine in the corrado, i expect this would be as fast as a mk2 rallye :smug:
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I think the posts on this thread show that there is diversity to all the models and so if you want to compare like for like then it should only extend to your "normal" models, so for mk1 1.6 & 1.8, mk2 8v & 16v, mk3 8v & 16v. Bringing VR6, G60, Rallye's etc is not comparing like for like in my opinion. :smug:
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Ok then, i think the mk3 16v isn't much slower than the mk2 16v :grin:
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Ok then, i think the mk3 16v isn't much slower than the mk2 16v :grin:
until you get to a corner... :wink:
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I prefer to stick to 4 wheel drive personally :laugh:
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Ok then, i think the mk3 16v isn't much slower than the mk2 16v :grin:
until you get to a corner... :wink:
Where my 405 Mi16 would p!ss all over both of em! :wink: :smug:
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Ok then, i think the mk3 16v isn't much slower than the mk2 16v :grin:
until you get to a corner... :wink:
Where my 405 Mi16 would p!ss all over both of em! :wink: :smug:
In your wet ones Len :laugh: and only because it's incontinent. :D
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Nah monza yours would be wet and you left in my wake! :wink: :laugh:
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Nah monza yours would be wet and you left in my wake! :wink: :laugh:
When it's roadworthy Len, when it's roadworthy :D
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Oh it is mate! Just sat there waiting for an MOT/Tax and she's ready to go!
Oh I might have to put some air in the tyres! :wink:
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Great :rolleyes:
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Oh it is mate! Just sat there waiting for an MOT/Tax and she's ready to go!
Oh I might have to put some air in the tyres! :wink:
that sounds like challenge accepted! len in his gay assed pug against monza in his monza ;) only way anyone will believe you len, is to out corner monza in his mk2 16v.
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I'll take that challenge! Wont be for a while coz I got other priorities but come late spring early summer I will be ready!
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I can't wait :sick:
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righto then... when i get this trackday sorted for golfgti.co.uk peeps at cadwell in spring/late spring we'll have a play ill be there in my vr barge with bucket seats.... and id love to be behind lenny in his fat a55 pug trying to do a mk2 throught the bends  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
so when i post up in jan i want yours twos on the list along with about 30-40 others whove got no fear and are up for fun... after all thats what cars are made for not just spunkin over... lol
:laugh: :evil: :laugh: :evil:
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Oh it is mate! Just sat there waiting for an MOT/Tax and she's ready to go!
Oh I might have to put some air in the tyres! :wink:
.... len in his gay assed pug .....
:laugh:
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I will point out that my Mi16 is not standard! It has been lowered and stiffened. :wink:
Depends when in Spring Gaz!
No I aint chickening out, finances come into this as I will have to shell out for tax/MOT/insurance
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Have to wait about 5 years then :kiss: :laugh:
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this will be april/may time len, plenty of time to save and book etc, and i can arrange cheap accom for those traveling from afar :wink:
so no chickening...
ill post a link on this thread when i sort it so we can get all this mk1/mk2/mk3/mk4/mk5 and anything else sh!t sorted on the track where it all counts... not ive got a bigger turbo or my cars lower than yours... lol
:cool:
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Late April early May is fine with me! I will be there!
As long as it dont clash with RTTS at the end of May! :wink: :laugh: (cant miss boiler suit time!)
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dont worry len, we'll be expectin you to be racin in your boiler suit :wink:
:laugh:
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Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!
But it aint got any sleeves! :wink: :laugh:
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Have to wait about 5 years then :kiss: :laugh:
So Corin - are you actually gonna turn up to this challenge???
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What in my Audi? :huh:
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If ya like! I just meant make an appearance!
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I'm up for Cadwell and any other circuits you can arrange, just so long as they don't conflict with my bike track days :undecided:
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Your on :) Be good to take the Golf round the track at Cadwell it would be a far call from a 998cc mini pickup round a grasstrack on a Sunday afternoon. I'm not one for racing usually but then you get on the track and it all changes!
Remind me nearer the time and I'll try and get there helmet in hand so to speak :laugh:
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=405+mi16&word2=golf+16v
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once ive got a date and weve got 1st digs before its opened to others to fill the remaining places all details will be posted up, knowing me ill bung it up in every section so i doubt youll need reminding...
driving licenses, bsi approved helmets (can be hired on day if you havent got one) and full length clothing (no shorts and t shirts ) are required....
heres the track :cool:
(http://images.google.co.uk/url?q=http://www.jackals-forge.com/lotus/trackdays2002/cadwell_park_map.gif&usg=__SCiV34_N0hgWWxGswl9kz-G0zJo=)
:smiley:
monza hope to see you there hopefully not with c0ck in hand.... lol :laugh: :laugh:
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If ya like! I just meant make an appearance!
I don't know about that, i'd be too scared that you'd come on to me  :laugh: :kiss:
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Well looking at the figures it looks like it could be quite close on the straights Len same bhp per ton, the corners though you'll be reading the stickers in the back window it's very similar to the mk3 16v except if you park it in the rain between now and spring yours will melt into a pile :laugh: ;) also mine is knocking on the door of 150bhp possibly a tad more by springtime :evil:
PUG
Kerb weight : 1180kg
2.0 16v
152.0 bhp
135 lbft
76.1 bhp/litre
91.59 Nm/litre
0-62mph 8.10secs
Power to weight 128.81 bhp/ton
GOLF
Kerb weight 998kg
1.8 16v
139 bhp
124 lb/ft
76.9 bhp/litre
94.33 Nm/litre
0-62mph 8.10secs
Power to weight 151.05 bhp/ton
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Monza the plate on my car says its a lot more than 1180kg. I think coz its a long time since I even lifted the bonnet its more like 1480kg. So I will check.
Also mine is an earlier (1991 H) thats got the 1.9 engine and puts out 160bhp. (no cat)
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If ya like! I just meant make an appearance!
I don't know about that, i'd be too scared that you'd come on to me :laugh: :kiss:
Oh i'll be too busy for that! :laugh: Just come along, about time we met! We wont bite! Oh Gaz might but I'll keep him in control! :wink: :laugh:
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This will be a laff. Not sure how the Pug will handle but I know the MK2 will whip its big saggy rear end.
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You aint seen how low my not so saggy rear end is! :evil:
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Whatever the result, mk2s = :cool: Mi16 = not :cool: :tongue:
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BTW Len, Jordan's old Mk2 had both aircon and ABS.
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Matter of opinion Gibby! :wink:
So why has nobody told me that before - I have asked many times! But were they factory fitted?
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Just found a Lemans Edition on egay. Is £300 quid cheap for these. Still think it will lose the rear end round corners before the Golf will.
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that is cheap! The Le Mans was the last version of it. But it was lower powered than mine due to the cat.
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Matter of opinion Gibby! :wink:
Matter of fact Len. :wink: A pug 405 is not a cool motor, no matter what it's badged as. :laugh:
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I dont think either car appears on Clarksons Cool Wall. :wink: :laugh:
But to me its a great car and I love it! So Ner! :tongue:
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Matter of opinion Gibby! :wink:
So why has nobody told me that before - I have asked many times! But were they factory fitted?
i did already tell you that, about 2 months ago. senile dementia imo.
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No you didnt you said a Rallye had it! :tongue:
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very very few rallyes have aircon.. so i wouldn't have said that
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=45618.msg361843#msg361843
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But you didnt reply to my question! You think I'm gonna take your word on face value???
Gimme proof!
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Oh yes you did!!!!! :grin: yes its panto season again!
Was in an earlier thread to the one you just posted.
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toph: jord your mk2 had aircon and abs didnt it?
jord: yes
toph: kthx.
nb. not an actual conversation, but it's pretty much how it would go. i thought i had already answered your question len, guess not, but it was jord's car i had specifically in mind .. since you saw it at the RR day there is your proof.
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Well you dragged that thread up and there werent no answer was there! :rolleyes:
Jords car that was too low to go on the RR?
I'll email Jord in that case!
Oh yeah I remember that its a left hooker! So that disqualifies it same as a Rallye!
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What has that got to do with it ? It's still a mk2. There are rhd ones aswell, don't know anyone that owns one though.
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The biggest fact is that if you need ABS to be able to drive a car without crashing then you can't be a very good driver. Every car I've driven with it has felt much worse than my mk2 without ABS.
Aircon - Good for keeping you cool...bad for fuel economy and power.
I can't be arsed to read why this is being argued but it's no doubt that mk3's came with and mk2's didn't. Fact is the mk3 is a lard arse because of all these extra creature comforts. Like has been said before, not entirely worthy of a GTI badge.
Ohh, I feel much better for that :smiley:
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abs has saved my life on a couple of occasions. anyone who says they can control breaking better than an abs unit is lying.
i've no idea what this thread is about either, i just wanted to call len senile. here, have a random pic.
(http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~dv8r/golf/orlylen.JPG)
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I've probably driven some sh!te cars with ABS then. Everytime I've driven one when it's icy I find they lock up easier...too easy :sad:
That's the famous pic aint it?! :laugh:
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I'm not arguing! This all stems from my genuine desire to have a Mk2 but the reason I didnt coz as far as I knew you couldnt get one with ABS and Air-con. So I got a Mk3.
I disqualify the G60 and Rallye because they are LHD and I wouldnt want one of those!
So if anyone knows of a Mk 2 16v with both ABS and Air-con that is RHD please let me know!
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Yay! The famous pic makes an appearance again!
The one of me dancing in it is better though!
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I've seen Mk2's with air con. I would be tempted to get one myself.
Some Mk2's have been listed on ebay as having ABS, but I'm not entirely sure they know what they're talking about. Might have been on late run-out GTIs.
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See this is what ya get, maybe's! Yes I have heard that the late model Mk2 's were laced with extras to sell em off. But nobody seems to be able to confirm it!
As for ebay well........
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So if anyone knows of a Mk 2 16v with both ABS and Air-con that is RHD please let me know!
Huwmk2 has a valver with air-con unsure about ABS, but his car is very well spec'd.
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See this is what ya get, maybe's! Yes I have heard that the late model Mk2 's were laced with extras to sell em off. But nobody seems to be able to confirm it!
As for ebay well........
oh my god len, let it go!! air con and ABS were options on mk2 golfs, but very few have them as they were crazily expensive option back in the early 90's. f**k me you're one for pursuing a lost cause! :rolleyes:
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Now the mk2 handles well is nice and light, with 16v is no slouch and I reckon for a car of 15 years plus it doesn't do to badly again the modern competion, and it is a car that with stands alot of abuse. After all how many 205 gti do you see now, apart from if you work at a breakers.
aye i owned a 205 gti for 7 years , and compared to the reliabilty of my golf , it was s**t!!! , given i owned it before the golf too as well that says it all imo , the pug had 88k on it when i got it and i replaced soo much on it through the years i had an A4 folder full of reciepts , now my golf has 168k on the clock , last two mot's its gone through with out a problem and is still as strong as an ox , ive not had to do much work on it either. says it all imo about the mk2 :)
my mk2 8v is at 216k (!) and passed its MOT first time last week despite needing the subframe re-attaching to the chassis 2 months ago :huh: :grin:
first car ive owned thats gone straight through!! and funnily enough it has twice the miles on the clock than the rest!
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FU*K OFF JOE!
:tongue:
I didnt bring the subject up again!