GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk3 => Topic started by: speedynz on 18 July 2006, 09:04
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I have just bought a 1997 MK 3 16 valve 5 door GTI, it is a one owner full history car with only 17,000 fully documented miles. It is immaculate and it drives like new but feels like it has 90 - 100bhp rather than the 150bhp it should have. It is run on 98 octane fuel and the air cleaner looks healthy enough. I've just returned from my first solo 'long' run in it (200 miles) and it struggled to hit 110 mph and has no punch in the lower gears. Subjectively it feels like the airbox is stuffed full of socks and it can't breath, idle is fine as are all other driving impressions. The car originated in Japan and I wondered if they had stricter emissions laws back in the '90's (although I doubt it, 200bhp Subaru's etc). Can anyone shed any light on as to where the missing power is?
PS, Oil temp is 94 - 100 centigrade (it's winter and about 10 degrees here) depending on speed and traffic, is that ok?
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Timing is always the first thing to check, my MK2 8v GTI was the same, and once I sorted the timing it was a rocket!
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First thing I'd do is get it hooked up to a VAGcom and check for fault codes just to be safe...are there any specialists near you?
Secondly, the 16v hasn't got the oomph of the 8v lower down the gears, but comes into it's own above 3500rpm, might just need a service, plugs, dizzy cap, rotor arm....be carefull removing this as many are glued on for added safety(I don't and have had no probs with it :wink:), oil and filter. The plugs require a long shafted remover as they are set deep in the block. All of this shouldn't set you back more than £50, and is easy enough to do.
The oil temp sounds ok...mine runs 94-98deg....100-104 when giving it some beans :evil:.
One of the first things I'd do as well...money and insurance permitting, would be to fit a performance air filter...not necessarily an induction kit, but a drop in panel filter and check the route the air flows...inductiopn kits are good when the car is moving and cold air is freely available, buit in hot conditions and traffic they are pretty sh*t...saying that...I run one as love the sound :laugh:
Secondly fit a performance exhaust as factory 'zorsts and air filters are very stiffeling to the car.....you just help it breath more easily by adding these.
And welcome to the forum :smiley:
Where abouts are you??
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Is that 10 degrees centigrade????
If so then you definitely need an oil and filter change. Dont skimp on the filter get a VAG one!
Its a complete phallusy about 8v/16v and torque at low revs! Go check the facts and figures!
I would get a good service done, or change all the usual stuff Dizzy, rotor arm, plugs, leads. Then give it a blast. That age and that mileage its never been opened up properly!
Change the air filter and check all the breather hoses are clear and check the butterfly opens fully.
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I'm in Christchurch, New Zealand. Thanks for all the handy tips Hypermonkey, I have a local VW main agent who I presume will have the relevant diagnostic equipment.
Do you have any idea how much difference cat removal and free flow air filter make to performance and will this course of action cause exhaust resonance? We have no legal requirement for catalytic converters over here.
I should point out that I am initially keen to replenish the full factory 150bhp rather than chase an extra 10 or so bhp with minor performance modifications.
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Is that 10 degrees centigrade????
If so then you definitely need an oil and filter change. Dont skimp on the filter get a VAG one!
Its a complete phallusy about 8v/16v and torque at low revs! Go check the facts and figures!
I would get a good service done, or change all the usual stuff Dizzy, rotor arm, plugs, leads. Then give it a blast. That age and that mileage its never been opened up properly!
Change the air filter and check all the breather hoses are clear and check the butterfly opens fully.
Thanks Len,
Yes it's 10 degrees centigrade, why do I need an oil and filter change at this tempreature?
Car was serviced 350 miles ago (by Joe Bloggs, back street mechanic) just before I bought it. It has been serviced annually at main agents every year otherwise regardless of distance travelled.
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Missed this so an edit!
If oil temp is that high in temp of 10 degrees then its a bit hot! So first try changing oil and filter and flush the system as well. The flow maybe restricted causing the temp to be high.
In that case mate you should do what Simon (Hypermonkey) says and get it checked out at a proper VAG Dealership and get the fault codes checked, coz there is something wrong with that car!
As you say get the car sorted first and back to at least 150 bhp.
If you then take off the cat and fit a free flow exhaust and an induction kit (k&N is best) then possibly 10 bhp is realistic. With doing that though you would also be advised to do a remap to adjust the ECU settings to suit the increased air flow!
Then you could be looking at 20 - 25 bhp extra.
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Try to find a decent specialist if you can as opposed to main dealer as they charge the earth and aren't usually as passionate about the older cars as we are.
I run a standard cat...free flow centre section and a Sebring back box, K&N 57i induction and a AmD chip and remap and have RR figures of 172bhp and 154ft/lbs on my 16v...so with a decat you should be up to 175-180bhp....and a bit of luck :wink:
So are we all invited over for our holls then :laugh:
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Try to find a decent specialist if you can as opposed to main dealer as they charge the earth and aren't usually as passionate about the older cars as we are.
I run a standard cat...free flow centre section and a Sebring back box, K&N 57i induction and a AmD chip and remap and have RR figures of 172bhp and 154ft/lbs on my 16v...so with a decat you should be up to 175-180bhp....and a bit of luck :wink:
So are we all invited over for our holls then :laugh:
Thanks Simon, I'm about a 100bhp shy of those figures right now!
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:laugh: but you will get there soon. We are quite lucky over here as there are sooooo many specialists and many are excellent...they offer great service..cups of tea (don't know what the local drink is in NZ) and will help you out when they can :smiley:
We defo need some pics of your car and some of the local ladies... :evil:
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Try to find a decent specialist if you can as opposed to main dealer as they charge the earth and aren't usually as passionate about the older cars as we are.
I run a standard cat...free flow centre section and a Sebring back box, K&N 57i induction and a AmD chip and remap and have RR figures of 172bhp and 154ft/lbs on my 16v...so with a decat you should be up to 175-180bhp....and a bit of luck :wink:
So are we all invited over for our holls then :laugh:
If ever you are over here Simon then you're welcome to stay.
We may have a distinct lack of specialist information on specific European models but it is countered by the extraordinary driving roads (4 million population in a country 15% bigger than the UK) and fuel at half the price of England. I also only pay a hundred of your English pounds for fully comp insurance, no alarm needed and the car parked outside. None of those benefits will find my missing 50 horsepower though.
As an aside I drove four 16valve 5 door GTI's when looking and all of them had very similar performance to mine making me wonder if Japan (country of import for all of them) has a model specifically tuned (detuned?) for that country, any thoughts?
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I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Japanese Import ones where restricted to 110Bhp or something. Buggered if I can find anything to back that up, or tell you exactly what they did...
I could've dreamed it or something :laugh:
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I've just read (translated) in my owners manual that Japanese market Golf GTI16valve's had 145ps (143 bhp approx) and less torque too. I've written to VW and asked to confirm the power status and how to rectify the deficit and should they reply (I think they will, being German and all) then I'll let you know.
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Get the timing checked, and change the ECU relay.
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Get the timing checked, and change the ECU relay.
Isn't the timing adjustment automatic?
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Yes.
But what i meant was get the static timing checked, as this can be out if the belt has been changed.
Ignition timing itself is adjusted by the ECU, providing everything is lined up to start with.
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So he just needs to get hold of a European ECU ???????
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Speedy, is your engine code ABF? if not can you post it?
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Speedy, is your engine code ABF? if not can you post it?
Will post engine number (dark outside so will wait for light). My local mechanical expert has suggested sourcing a UK ecu. What are your thoughts regarding the engine code?
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Well if its an ABF i will know it well.
Not sure what will be in it to be honest, if i've got an engine code then i could investigate.
Did you say the car isn't fitted with a catalyser?
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Well if its an ABF i will know it well.
Not sure what will be in it to be honest, if i've got an engine code then i could investigate.
Did you say the car isn't fitted with a catalyser?
Just had a look for engine code, lots of Japanese writing but couldn't find ABF, where will it say it if it's there?
Yes car has a cat, many instructions in engine bay (in English!) not to overfill engine oil as damage to cat may occur.
Keep it coming Audiman, you're a lifeline right now.
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Probably is an ABF, should be in the service book.
Have you had anything checked on the car?
emissions ? timing ?
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Probably is an ABF, should be in the service book.
Have you had anything checked on the car?
emissions ? timing ?
Audiman (what's your name?) Firstly what does ABF denote?
The car is going into a local expert (who's no expert at all but the best I have) next week for a checkover. It's also going to the VW dealer to check for fault codes.
We have no requirement in New Zealand to meet any emissions standards (except trailing visible smoke for 10 seconds constantly) so we have no emissions measuring equipment.
The car has only travelled 17,000 miles, it has 9 main agent stamps in the service book and drives, looks and feels like a new vehicle. It has no running faults whatsoever, it's very smooth, starts on the button, idles at 800rpm and runs 94-100 degree oil temp (I think the engine works hard up hills due to the power deficit and on a very long uphill slog will run at 100 degrees in 12 degree ambient temp). My feeling is that the car has a Japanese market ECU or some other Jap market modification and that all is well with it, they may just be lower powered over there (I did drive 4 others, all imports from Japan and they all felt the same). I am wary of chasing a problem that does not exist but will try the obvious and may try to locate a secondhand Euro market ECU. Beyond this I am open to suggestions.
Should any of the aforementioned fixes not remedy the power deficit then the car will have to be sold as running a 100bhp, 1400kg Golf GTI is akin to running no GTI at all.
Thanks Audiman, Len and others, please keep it coming and save me from a life of fabulous but frail French fancies!
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ABF denotes the engine code.
I've got to go out in a minute so can't go into detail.
A quick suggestion as for emissions, try removing a spark plug, see what colour it is, and report back!
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ABF denotes the engine code.
I've got to go out in a minute so can't go into detail.
A quick suggestion as for emissions, try removing a spark plug, see what colour it is, and report back!
Will do.
12 hour time difference so be patient please.
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Are you it is a 16v?
The 8v engines produced for the US market had a similar sort of inlet manifold.
Can you post a pic?
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[img]
Are you it is a 16v?
The 8v engines produced for the US market had a similar sort of inlet manifold.
Can you post a pic?
OK, if the piccys will upload then here they are. In case they don't then here's a description.
The plugs are a little black but very good otherwise (forgot to check the brand).
Exhaust is very, very clean, when I wipe it with my finger it virtually doesn't leave a mark, I can clearly see the metal so there is no soot build up.
The car has a huge catalyst, (suitcase size) half way along the car.
The engine is a 16valve, unless the stamp on the inlet manifold is lying to me.
OK, sorry, no pictures, when I click on "insert image" nothing happens. If you really need a photo then let me know and I'll persevere.
Does the description help?
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if it's a japanese import, is it not expecting 101 RON fuel anyway? a european ecu would probably be worth it (assuming the immobiliser doesn't live in the ecu, not sure if it did in the 1997 models)...
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[img]Are you it is a 16v?
The 8v engines produced for the US market had a similar sort of inlet manifold.
Can you post a pic?
OK, if the piccys will upload then here they are. In case they don't then here's a description.
The plugs are a little black but very good otherwise (forgot to check the brand).
Exhaust is very, very clean, when I wipe it with my finger it virtually doesn't leave a mark, I can clearly see the metal so there is no soot build up.
The car has a huge catalyst, (suitcase size) half way along the car.
The engine is a 16valve, unless the stamp on the inlet manifold is lying to me.
OK, sorry, no pictures, when I click on "insert image" nothing happens. If you really need a photo then let me know and I'll persevere.
Does the description help?
Ok, what sort of MPG do you get ??
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[img]Are you it is a 16v?
The 8v engines produced for the US market had a similar sort of inlet manifold.
Can you post a pic?
OK, if the piccys will upload then here they are. In case they don't then here's a description.
The plugs are a little black but very good otherwise (forgot to check the brand).
Exhaust is very, very clean, when I wipe it with my finger it virtually doesn't leave a mark, I can clearly see the metal so there is no soot build up.
The car has a huge catalyst, (suitcase size) half way along the car.
The engine is a 16valve, unless the stamp on the inlet manifold is lying to me.
OK, sorry, no pictures, when I click on "insert image" nothing happens. If you really need a photo then let me know and I'll persevere.
Does the description help?
Ok, what sort of MPG do you get ??
28mpg in town, light traffic, no sideways.
37mpg on a run, no motorway, 60mph speedlimit, mild tomfoolery.
The querie posed concerning 101ron Japanese fuel may well be relevant.
VW Wolfsburg have forwarded my 'market specific' querie to the relevant department who will advise me of any Japanese market modifications.
The Euro spec ECU is still looking like a possibility.
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What's the ron of the petrol in NZ??
Just that if you buy a Scooby from Japan and import it here it is essential to have it re-mapped for the difference or it could lead to detination...not good. Octane booster a possibility??
Not trying to scare you or anything...just a little thought, and as I don't have that many you should feel kinda elite :wink:
Also.....PICS OF THE CAR!!!!!! purlease :grin:
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Picking up what Dom said. Yes the immobiliser is in the ecu on 97 models.
But then we are talking about a Jap model so maybe different.
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maybe it's time to go throttle bodies and aftermarket ecu ;)
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What's the ron of the petrol in NZ??
Just that if you buy a Scooby from Japan and import it here it is essential to have it re-mapped for the difference or it could lead to detination...not good. Octane booster a possibility??
Not trying to scare you or anything...just a little thought, and as I don't have that many you should feel kinda elite :wink:
Also.....PICS OF THE CAR!!!!!!  purlease :grin:
We have only just got 98 octane here and I use it for everything (I'd run my lawnmower on it if I had one) I've had three Scooby's and had remaps on all (even UK cars) my factory standard UK 98 Impreza turbo would show an indicated 160mph after a remap, I took photo's of the speedo as other Scooby owners didn't believe it.
I tried octane boost, worked very well in my unmodified Cooper S (147mph indicated and sharper, harder accelaration) but seemed to do nothing for my naturally aspirated cars (Golf included).
If you really want a pic of a standard 5 door 16v Golf then I'll post one, I'm having trouble uploading but I'll persevere.
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More interested in the half nekid NZ fitties.....or at least some sheep :drool: :laugh:
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Have just heard back from VW Germany, VW New Zealand and Eurotechnik (VW tuning specialist). The car is quoted as 110kw (150bhp) from the factory, the engine build sheet was even e-mailed to me from Germany (how polite and efficient is that). Two main isues have been raised by all 3 parties. Firstly, 60% of power loss problems for the 16valve engines have been caused by overfilling of engine oil polluting the catalyst and resricting exhaust gas flow. The other common theme is the timing being out of calibration.
VW New Zealand suggested that the combination of 150bhp and 1475kg (5 door) means this is not a fast car, the 3 door weighs 275kg less (incredibly) and performs far better. Next stop is a dyno, cat check and possibly the classifieds!
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I'm sure that weight difference is wrong, i'll check in the manual tomorrow.
Getting the timing checked sounds a good place to start.
As for the overfilling of the oil, the oil would of burnt the cat out by now, it won't just sit there and block exhaust gases.
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Revised weight quoted is 1200kg's.
The owners manual is in Japanese and silly me, I didn't study that at school!