GolfGTIforum.co.uk
General => General discussion => Topic started by: mookie on 28 June 2006, 22:37
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I'd already mentioned in another thread about the problems I've had with my new 8v:
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=42852.0
Well I picked it up from the garage this afternoon and although the leak was done, and the brakes are now up to scratch, the MAIN issue I had with the handling/steering feels just as bad as it did before.
In a nutshell, my gripe was that the steering felt too loose, with too much 'play' on the wheel - which I have to admit has been improved by the repairs. However in addition, while I'm driving along, the car feels like it is lurching to one side or the other, and it's still doing it now - the best comparison I can make is the feeling the car has when you catch a brief side wind and the car does an unexpected wobble. It does it most noticabley when I'm going in a straightline at any speed. I can't tell whether it is just when the car goes over a bump or impection in the road or not, but it does seem to happen more on uneven roads or where there are slight dips and rises in the tarmac... but it is so unnerving that I don't want to drive it. Weird little characteristics I can live with, quirks are fine with me. But this just feels completely wrong and just a little bit scary.
Today the local VW dealership did the following to the steering (aswell as fixing the leak, sorting the brakes etc):
- Both frontside track rods
- Both boots
Cost me almost £300 inc labour for just the above and I'm no further foward :cry: On the printout/invoices they gave me there was two extra things that were mentioned as needing doing, namely "play in the top steering bush", and also "suspect play in front suspension top mounts".
Previously the dudes at the garage mentioned a defect in the rim of one of the rear wheels, so I've changed both rear wheels from my 16v and put them onto this one. Previously it was running on low profile tyres and so now it has two low profile on the front and two regular on the back. Identical BBS RA alloys on both. It's also lowered by 40mm (according to the previous owner) on Bilsteins. No difference has been apparent after putting the two normal wheels on the back.
Right now, I've spent £1370 on the car plus £625 on repairs - £1995 altogether. I really need some advice on how to now proceed. Aside from the bizarre steering there's nothing else immediately wrong with the car, certainly nothing that needs doing immediately. But I feel utterly depressed after today about it.
Are these symptoms that anyone else recognises, or maybe has a good idea about might be causing it? I'm so fed up it's not true. I just don't want to spend the near future chucking my money at a problem that I can't work out the cause of... :undecided:
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Sorry to hear about your problems! sounds like what you have is basic wear and tear on various components
I would start with the tyres, are they perfect? Goodyear NCTs can be an absolute nightmare if you've got them fitted, otherwise make sure they have no flat spots, or have gone "egg" shaped, these defects will put you all over the road!
You describe your car as "lurching" generally this is pointing towards the shockers being knackered! shot antiroll bar bushes can also contribute to this effect.
For me, I would start with the tires, take to a reputable tyre fitting specialist (hard to find!)hopefully they should check them for free, if they think there may be a sale involved!
After that I would get the top mountings done, and the antiroll bar bushes done at the same time.. they should charge no more than 2hrs labour, and £30-40 in parts
Hope this helps
Tom
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Someone else has suggested putting all four regular tyres on the car, reasoning that the front low-profiles might be failing to cope with the road and losing grip or not having enough purchase on the surface. Worth a try I suppose.
Are the antiroll bar bushes the same as the top steering bushes? :huh:
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Don't give up hop yet...I know what you mean though...you got the car and wanted everything to be sweet...but it isn't atm. What model is it mk1-5....as they have different characteristics of handling. If it's a mk3 then look at the mk3 section on the 'what to look for when buying' section. Here it explains how the handling can feel as standard and what probs you may have...I'm sure I read symptoms very similar to what you have described here, and also how to rectify them...mainly the bushes on the rear if irc.
I'm sure you will get it sorted soon geeza :smiley:
Where-abouts are you in the country...might be someone on here who could point you in the direction of a good specialist to diagnose fully the problem, and if you got the car from a garage, they could do the work in the specialists report without you paying :smiley:
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Thanks for the advice. It's a 3dr Mk 2 8v GTi.
I'm gonna try putting the regular wheels/tyres on and see if that makes a difference, and I'm going to take it into the National Tyre Centre tomorrow for a tracking check - although the dude sounded slightly less enthusiastic when I mentioned it had been lowered :embarassed: Rang back the VW dealership that fixed it yesterday, and they asked me to bring it back for them to check... not sure when I'm going to find the time to do all of this :angry:
I just want a sorted car.
Anyone aware of what the handling characteristics could be on a car with lowered suspension and low profile tyres? I've seen mention of the phenomenon called tramlining elsewhere, and just wondered whether it could be that.
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Tramlines are where the car will follow the depressions in the road caused by subsidence from vehicles travelling along the same line of the road. A car with lowered suspension and low profiles will do this, but the whole car will move along the lines and not 'wobble' when pulled into them.
I have a mk3 16v, lowered with 205/40/17s and do get tramlining but the car doesn't wobble. Mk3's are known for poor handling and sorting the bushes does a world of good.
Just a thought, when the car was lowered, did the shocks and springs get changed? if the springs where changed for lowered ones and the shocks kept the same then this could lead to problems as the shocks will be travelling to different settings then that which they where made to do...that's why lowering kits have shortened pistons and are made to complement the springs.....if this was not done then this could be your answer to part of the prob.
where abouts are you if I've missed that allready?
Also check the tracking/camber, if you lower the car and don't get this done it can lead to really sh*t strearing and handling probs. I would:
Check the springs and shocks are a set and are in good condition(plus what make if poss)
Check the bushes..all of them.
Get the same tyres all round...wel profile anyway.
Have the tracking, toe, camber looked at...this might be best done by a specialist who fits lowered shocks as the settings are different to stock iirc.
Hope this helps.
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I'm in Gateshead, Tyne and Wear :laugh:
Suspension wise, it's on Bilsteins (as far as I can tell looking through the wheel arch - bright red thing)/. I'm not sure how they were fitted - I need to have a look through the history of the car and see, but I can't remember seeing anything about them before. TBH at this point I'd be quite happy for it to revert back to it's standard form and just enjoy driving the thing.
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I think they were about right when they suggested suspension top mounts. I would imagine what you describe is exactly how it would feel if the shocks have too much room to wander around in the mounts.... Think about it - the body will effectively have a certain amount of 'play' in it, independant of the bits that are actually connected to the road.
My VR6 felt a bit like that before I replaced mine, but I swapped over the suspension (now got FK Highsport Coilovers) at the same time, so I can't say it was just down to those mounts for sure.
Just makes sense to me :smiley:
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Well changed the rest of the wheels, and it gives a more comfortable ride down the street atleast... but the swervy-death-machine is still in full effect :angry:
I took it for a spin right after and it was still doing the weird lurch. Again, it seems limited to when you do decent speed in a straightline over uneven or undulating road. I gave my dad the controls and he had a go and he (finally) noticed what I'd being try to convince people about. Now initially he put it down to the tramline effect. However, after another 5mins or so he changed his mind. He reckons that because there is still play in the steering, and in effect a deadzone either side of 12oclock on the wheel; the wheels have the ability to shift slightly when they shouldn't be able to. So, hit a divot in the road and instead of bouncing through it in a straightline, the wheels adjust slightly to match it - thus it feels like it's lurching or swerving slightly. He demonstrated when we were parked - the wheel still moves side to side by about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch (maybe slightly more) without having any effect on the steering, like I say, just dead movement.
So. This was my main purpose of repairs - sorting the excess movement on the wheel. Hopefully they won't f**k me over for labour tomorrow to do the bushes as they should have done it first time. Might get the suspension mounts done too.
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Someone else has suggested putting all four regular tyres on the car, reasoning that the front low-profiles might be failing to cope with the road and losing grip or not having enough purchase on the surface. Worth a try I suppose.
Are the antiroll bar bushes the same as the top steering bushes? :huh:
Mookie, Antiroll bar bushes fit on the lower suspension, the antiroll bar connects the O/S suspension to the N/S so the car reacts by losing "body roll" while cornering, replacing these bushes is dirt cheap, and could make a massive difference!
The "Top steering bush" is located on the steering input shaft, just under the steering wheel (ish) its what keeps the main steering shaft "snug" inside the steering column mounting tube... basically if you can move your steering wheel up, down, or side to side without turning the steering wheel, then its knackered! again, dirt cheap job, but minimal effect to solving your problem!
suspension top mounts, tend to go noisy, rather than anything you can feel, but if they've gone bad, they can affect your tracking! though not necessarily your handling!
If your getting your tracking checked, get the rear done at the same time! they might look at you gone out! If your rear axle is bent, this could lead to "rear wheel steering" to the uninitiated, this has similar symptoms to what you have described, I've actually seen this more than a few times on Golfs that have hit kerbs!
Are your shockers adjustable? have they been turned down to their softest setting!
Hope this helps
Tom
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Geddin! My car really was a bad idea after all. :cry:
Had another checkup at the garage, and it needs the following:
- Snapped front springs, and problems with rear shocks. Whole new set recommended.
- Universal joints in the steering have gone kapput. They need replacing with additional misc bits to go with them.
Just the parts (with a new lowering kit supplied by me) run to about £500. Estimated 6 - 7 hours labour involved aswell. VW garage estimate including all parts and labour £900 :undecided: Even if I take it elsewhere, looking at the parts needed, I'm not going to get it done for much under £750 I reckon.
This come off the back of having only just lashed down £625 two days ago on new front brakes and what not.
I am gutted. And I don't think I will get it done.
I'm going to have to have a think about this. At the moment I'm not confident to drive the car, and without the above jobs been done it's not going to get used. So, either I now try and sell it on under the notion that it needs work done and lose £1000 in the process. Or, I keep it the drive and hope I have the time and expertise in the future to attempt the work myself. Either way, I am now going to have to go looking for a replacement car as I am supposed to be moving to York in a couple of weeks and I am now minus transport :embarassed:
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Gutted for you, looks a real nice car, what's that saying "never judge a book by it's cover" though, I payed a lot of money for an E30 325 sport a few years back, meant to be "like new" well it was 6 months and £1200 later, and that was doing the work myself, try and tackle some of the jobs yourself, it's only nuts & bolts at the end of the day! Was the guy you got it from wearing a hat and spurs? :laugh:
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yeah shocks arent hard to do, if i was u i would get a haynes manual or such like and give it a go! shocks will only take a couple of hours not sure about the other bits but theya are in the same general area so u can do them together!
u are mainly paying for labour by the sounds of it, get parts from ebay, gsf etc n u will save a few bob! stick with it dude now u know wats up u can sort n hav a decent car!
welcome to the wonderful world of dubbing lol
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Well after much thought and heavy night on the beer last night to drown my sorrows :sick: I've decided to do exactly what is suggested above. I'm gonna get a hold of everything I need from GSF, breakers and eBay, and try as much of it as I can. A dude does all the cars in my family, ex-AA mechanic and sound as a pound - I'll ask him how much for the harder jobs but the suspension is something I can defo do myself. Seems mad not to as aside from the above stuff the rest of the car is worth saving. I've spent two grand already, seems stupid to now write that off and get something else - in for a penny, in for a thousand pounds :laugh: I'm a teacher with six lovely weeks off school coming up. Perfect for this sort of thing.
Apart from anything I can get my myself my own project thread now to demonstrate my cackhanded mechanical skills :nerd:
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Shouldn't be a problem mate....pm JV and ask for a project page, in the meantime, check out my own project page....had serious issues on my old one with the rear suspension and decuded to break down the process of stripping it and rebuilding on my project page.
It really isn't too major a job provided you remember that patience helps every time :wink:
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good to hear you gonna grab the bull by the horns and get it sorted. You'll love it when its all sorted and you just know that on that day when you have got everything done, its a fine day the sun is shining, not cloud in the sky and the birds are singing and you take it for a blast on your favourite B road, you will think to yourself......THANK FUNK I DECIDED TO KEEP IT
good man :cool:
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The saga continues... :grin:
Basically the battle has been take to three fronts since I last updated this thread. The first front has yielded some success too - basically the VW garage that originally tried to fix the problem have admitted getting it wrong with two successive diagnosis of the problem I was having, and after a thorough re-examination by their quality control chaps, they've offered to fix the car so it's safe and roadworthy for free if I pay for the parts. Estimated at £145 for me then, with 8-10hrs labour for free :shocked: The final opinion of the garage is basically that the previous owner has tried to lower the car by chopping the springs, and then not getting it tracked etc. So the steering geometry is totally wrong, and the car therefore reacts incorrectly as the front wheels are at a height the steering is not adjusted to control properly. So they're going to replace the springs and return the car to it's correct out-the-factory ride height. In addition they're going to replace wishbone and rear axle bushes and anything else that has perished or breaks when they take it apart. Keep in mind they were asking me to get the whole suspension system, plus the steering UJ replaced just a couple of days ago :sad:
So that's good I suppose - provided the car is cool after that of course. I'll still have spent almost £800 in garage bills in two weeks, but atleast it's looking like it might be fixed soonish.
I was away for the weekend, and whilst I was away my mam (who has been really traumatised by my bad luck here :cry: ) went on the rampage. She rang the lad I bought the car off and gave him a right bollocking, demanding money back or else. Seemingly he sounded like he'd shat his kecks and said he'd speak to his dad as he'd spent the money already :angry: Lo and behold, his old man rings up in a proper radge, but didn't reckon on dealing with my mam (think Robocop in a really bad mood). Turns out some of what his son had told me was balls, namely that he'd been using it daily up until recently - it had indeed been off road for a while as he'd been unable to get insured for it (a quick flick in the FSH I have and I found a summons to the local police station for him). Basically me mam implied he must have got his driving licence from the same place as Stevie Wonder if he didn't noticed the car's horrific handling qualities. Anyway, the dad rang off claiming we didn't have a leg to stand on etc and we wouldn't see any money back at all.
There's one more trick up my mam's sleeve, I won't mention it here just in case. I'll talk about once it's happened. But it could be good :lipsrsealed:
Anyway, fingers crossed that the head honcho of Scotswood service is correct, then I should have a car I can FINALLY enjoy this weekend.
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Well done for your efforts. Even with spending the £800 you will have a car with many new parts that will last you fpr a good few years to come.
:smiley:
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ah well there is some light at the end of the tunnel!
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Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Feckers! :angry:
I was supposed to be picking the car up on Saturday from the garage, but it wasn't ready in time. Rang up just now, and the chap says it's had the parts fitted and been tracked etc. But, although after an initial test drive the car handles 100% better than it did, the quality control fella in charge reckons the steering still feels like it's got too much play in it.
So I'm back to square one. Now I need to wait for a call to tell me whether it needs any more parts to sort the problem, leading to me to think they might have been right in the first place about replacing the steering column bearings and the UJ.
Goddamnit. I've had the car for about two and half weeks and it's spent more time in the garage than it has on my drive at home :cry:
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hang in there we have all been down this route with our dubs at one point or another, its just a steep painful learning curve lol. at least wen u get it back u know its been done properly. let us know dude!
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have you considered taking this to court???
my stepbrother bought a tidy fiesta with 20k on the clock for £640 (no mot though)
hes not very technically minded and had the car delivered, flicked throught the service history and found out it went through 40's 60's 80k's, the strange thing is the car is in too good a condition to have gone around the clock, took it for an mot and the cat was nackered and it needed new pads and discs.
he contacted the seller and he refused to hand any money over, he then contacted trading standards and they said he has a case and he could take the seller to court.
so he rung the seller up again, explained he wouldnt hesitate to take it to court and immediately got the £400 for the work to get it through an mot :smiley:
(sorry to bore you all with this lol)
but its worth a try, ring your local ts office and see if you have a case?
sam :laugh:
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I was right. Goddamn. Just got off the phone, the mysterious handling problem has seemingly been sorted, but the steering is still way too loose. 25% too loose... 25% of what? I'm not sure :rolleyes: Anyway, they are indeed going to replace the UJ and bushes (hopefully tomorrow) and report back to me on it for anything else that might need replaced (ash tray, temperature control sliders, glove compartment light etc). It's gonna cost another £210 (labour free), but I've now shelled out £770 so it's not gonna make much difference to my overall debt now anyway :grin:
As it now stands I've had the following replaced/done:
- Track rod ends and boots
- New coolant flange
- Front brake discs and pads
- Front suspension springs and mounts
- Rear axle bushes
- Steering tracking done
:shocked:
I suppose the car should feel canny nice once I get it back atleast.
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Just think, you'll have one of the best driving mk2's when its sorted - probably better than one of those low mile ridiculously expensive ones on ebay.
Regarding your thoughts to the previous seller. I reckon you're best just to let it lie. He did nothing wrong, you drove the car and bought it - thinking you had an excellent buy.
True, it doesn't sit well with my ethics (I wouldn't knowingly sell a shed!) - but we all know the old maxim, 'buyer beware'. and lets face it, a 15 year old motor is considered by most people to be scrap.
And legally, its a private sale - no comeback barring misrepresentation claims. Nothing that would interest the small claims court here I'm afraid - assuming the MOT is genuine, how did it pass?
Smile and enjoy the fact your gti will drive almost like it did in 91 :smiley:
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I'm not going to explain at the moment as wheels are in motion :lipsrsealed: but put it this way, I've had advice and it's being 'pursued' as we speak.
With any luck, I might get it back tomorrow. Then again, I've been saying this for the last week.