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General => General discussion => Topic started by: TIM20 on 07 May 2006, 18:24
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Im trying to research painting my project car
I have been looking at 2 pack / cellulose / and water based paints
2 pack releases isocyanoates and so needs an air fed mask and loads of precautions making it not really useable for the DIYer
Cellulose seems a better option but many of the sources of info seem to be negative about the finsih that is achieveable
And i can find nothing on the new water based paints
Does anyone have any experience of using any of the above??? or any other painting methods ofr the DIYer
Im guessing there is loads of people out there that have sprayed their own car, im just looking for some info so i get a decent finish but don't poision my self in the process
Tim
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are you painting metallic or flat colour. 2 pack does mess you up, i painted a wing without a mask and i was dizzy for a week. but you can buy masks that are throw away ones which are quite cheap, if i was gonna paint a flat colour i would still use base coat and then a 2 pack clear coat not just a 2 pack base without clear, it wont shine aswell.
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im undecided on a flat color or metallic color, depends which will give the best result
Im doing a whole car and don't want to feck my lungs etc just painting it
i have hear cellulose is better from a fumes point of view but requires more final prep to give a good shine etc
Tim
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yeah you wont get a shine as deep but it depends how good of a sprayer you are, it'll still look good if you do it right.
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I have some experiance with cellulose and can get decent results with a bit of effort. What you may lack in technique you can make up by doing your prep work well.
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cheers for the replies every one
Some people seem really down on cellulose, however this seems to be my best option so far
keithyboy have you had experience of spraying metallics or just flat color??
I was thinking flat color may be easier but i really want a metallic color now
And am i correct in saying cellulose does not require an oven to cure the paint??
Tim
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i've sprayed plenty of cars without an air fed mask in 2K and i've got asthma, just get a half right mask for about £15 and make sure it's fairly well ventilated, cellulose is crap and you'll never get a decent finish, especially in metallic colours.... :wink:
or ya could bring it to me..... :smug:
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oh and 2K doesn't need an oven to cure as it has hardner and activator in it, hence it's a 2 part paint, the clue's in the title..... :huh:
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how much you charge for a ful respray (exterior) in flat colour no colour change hardcore
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what on a mk1, as long as not black, about £7-800 to you.....
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Hardcor3 you will be getting a mail off me at some point as i want me car redoing in red and 2 pack.
Also send some more pics of your car to me ( mhmo29@dsl.pipex.com ) as i want to use it in next months calendar month.
ta
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no its red not a bad price. is that your living are u a painter
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Alex, sent a few mate, be nice to see it when yer done, hope they'll be some use, aint had chance for any decent photo's yet, as for the car, glad to be of service m8 :wink:...
and yeah, that's what i do, hence my car, only id've painted it better if i'd had premises at the time, but were only opening up next month, as i've only just found decent premises.... :smug:
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So two pack isn't that bad if you get a mask??
I really want a metallic red color but im aware that its being painted on a mk2 which realistically wont be worth that much in the long run
At what stage are isocyanoates released during the painting process, ie/ during the use of primers? base coats? and the final clear coat? or just during certain stages??
IS there stages i can complete for example then get a pro to do the actual painting, as i understnad the vast cost of a respray is in prep
Tim
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if you use a high build 2k primer, thats thats got iso's in it, because it has hardner, 2k base coat is just thinners, so is not so bad, then laquer has hardner in it, and same also iso's, 2k solid basecoat, ie plain red/blue etc, that has hardner and iso's, here's a pic of a saxo i painted a couple of weeks ago for a mate, in his dusty shed, with a crappy little 50ltr compressor and a basic spray gun of his, i wouldn't even use for primer, it's done in 2K....
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a332/hardcor3_/carpics278.jpg)
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here's where it was repaired....
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a332/hardcor3_/carpics280.jpg)
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what on a mk1, as long as not black, about £7-800 to you.....
Black is a night mare to do.... learnt the hard way!!!! just about to redo the front end of my car with 2k - hardcor3 pm me your details when your set-up with place... thanks
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what on a mk1, as long as not black, about £7-800 to you.....
Black is a night mare to do.... learnt the hard way!!!! just about to redo the front end of my car with 2k - hardcor3 pm me your details when your set-up with place... thanks
:wink: no probs mate... :nerd:
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what on a mk1, as long as not black, about £7-800 to you.....
Black is a night mare to do.... learnt the hard way!!!! just about to redo the front end of my car with 2k - hardcor3 pm me your details when your set-up with place... thanks
:wink: no probs mate... :nerd:
lol - :nerd:
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heres my partner in crime, Mr Wag-en-volks......otherwise known to some as Jamie...
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a332/hardcor3_/MVC-009S.jpg)
:grin: :grin: :grin:
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Tim, you got some good replies from this post, but I thought I would chip in with some of my opinions/ideas that may help you through what could turn out to be a nightmare!
First things first.. does your car have any rot that needs sorting before you even start thinking about paint, if yes, get a fixed price from a reputable body shop to fit genuine panels .... wings, doors, bonnet etc, rear wheel arches, and sills are OK to fit non genuine, but should be seam welded, and not "tack" welded for a proper job. non genuine panels are a complete waste of time and money, and should only be used if nothing else is available
If you think your car is rust free, take it to a body shop, and ask if they could give it the once over just to make sure there are no hidden nasties that could escalate the price of anyone trying to repair/repaint the car..also ask for an estimate at the same time, repaint on a level car should be around £1200 to £1800+vat, typically £400+vat is what you would pay just for the materials alone. 2KClear lacquer over base is the best option to go for, wether its metallic or a straight colour... Solid colour topcoat is an option, but paint is more likely to fade (especially, Tornado, Mars red), but is slightly cheaper to do, as no lacquer is involved, Metallic topcoats should be avoided at all costs, if any paint manufactures still do them!
Stay away from Isocyanate's! leave it to the pro's, primers, and lacquers that are 2 part, have Isocyanate's, ONLY a fresh air fed breathing apparatus is suitable, nothing and I mean nothing else is safe, especially,nuisance dust masks, or even charcoal filtered.
I've been painting cars for many years, and painted quite a few self preps, each time I say never again!!! generally you end up with MORE work, putting things "right" and the reputation of the painter/garage suffers because the job looks like Stevie Wonder did it!
If you want to help, to save money, just strip off all the parts that are on the car, this could save you 15-20hrs labour, my best advice is save up the extra money, and have it done by a "shop" that has excellent references, and a realistic timescale, that is stuck to!
Tom :laugh: :laugh:
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^^Agree.
Every "self-prep" i've seen has needed to be pretty much done again. Also if you're forking out for a compressor and spraygun... a proper mask/regulator isn't too much on top of that. If you think you can get away with a cheapo mask.. feel free to ask my brother how painful the 2 lots of nasal surgery he's had to have was. (plus the embarassment factor of having to have tampons stuck up your nose afterwards :grin: )
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well i agree with some of the above, but most of it i belive is a bit far fetched, especially your price, fair play if someone wants to pay that sort of money, but i'd expect a full shell re-colour for that sort of candy, as for seam welding panels, wings on a golf are bolt on, so don't know how your gonna seam weld that, and as for after market panels, yeah, they tend to be poorly fittin at times, but then that is down to the competence of the fitter as to how well they look, check out the pics of my car, the drivers wing with the vent is an aftermarket copy,  it bolted straight up perfect, now is it worth spending nearly £200 on a genuine VW wing or £24 like i paid, you deceide and as for paint alone being £400, bah, even water based paints wouldn't cost that much, 2k is about £24 a litre, laquer is around the same, my estimate for paint is no more than £150, and our paint is made by DeBeer's in Holland, and is real quality stuff....
using base coat and laquer (solid colour) is the best way to go, i agree, but thats all well and good on a full job, you paint part of an old car that way, and it'd stand out like a sore thumb....
as for your paint theory about it being a real No No, never heard so much flannel, yes it's very dangerous stuff and if you do it for a living, get an air-fed mask (which i use), but if your doing 1 car, you'll be fine, as long as you have some sort of protection, having been painting for some years, including lorries and i've never keeled over yet, and as i say, i suffer from asthma....
as for 1800+VAT, maybee i should put my price up..... :smug:
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Cheers for all of the replies, can you see where my confusion stems from???
Has anyone had experience of the new water based paints??? such as finish quality and ease of use
the car is currently a bare shell with no rot or rust at all!!! thats why i bought it
I aslo agree on genuine pannels, i tend to buy second hand genuine ones from scrap yards as i agree the fit is better.
Hopefully this thread will help other people out there hoping to paint there car.
As to home jobs looking bad, i have seen some 'pro' jobs that i think i could have done better with rattle cans simply on the basis of time spent on prep and and finsihing. Im a real perfectionist!!!
Tim
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£800 plus VAT, thats all i can say....... :wink:
this is from a sh!tty little compressor,it's an out of the gun finish and poor poor conditions, you decide how poor it is, then tell me it's not worth £800 for a full job, now we've got a propper set up and premises...... :huh:
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a332/hardcor3_/carpics275.jpg)
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Won't a couple of halfords rattle cans do the job? :laugh:
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As previously said on this thread the MOST important thing is the prep work and taking the car to bodyshop doesn't allways guarantee a good job. My mate runs a shop that sells paint and consumables to the car repair trade and the differences in the quality of work he sees is scary so be careful who you use to do work on your motor. As for the issue of spraying 2 pack without the propper breathing gear thats down to the individual but when I asked I was told (and agree) bollocks to risking your health over a coat of paint :smiley:
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As for the issue of spraying 2 pack without the propper breathing gear thats down to the individual but when I asked I was told (and agree) nuts to risking your health over a coat of paint :smiley:
Too right, I have a few mates who work in the trade and say a proper air fed mask is the ONLY way to deal with 2pac without risking your health.
Nick
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well i agree with some of the above, but most of it i believe is a bit far fetched, especially your price, fair play if someone wants to pay that sort of money, but I'd expect a full shell re-colour for that sort of candy, as for seam welding panels, wings on a golf are bolt on, so don't know how your gonna seam weld that, and as for after market panels, yeah, they tend to be poorly fittin at times, but then that is down to the competence of the fitter as to how well they look, check out the pics of my car, the drivers wing with the vent is an aftermarket copy, it bolted straight up perfect, now is it worth spending nearly £200 on a genuine VW wing or £24 like i paid, you decide and as for paint alone being £400, bah, even water based paints wouldn't cost that much, 2k is about £24 a liter, lacquer is around the same, my estimate for paint is no more than £150, and our paint is made by DeBeer's in Holland, and is real quality stuff....
using base coat and lacquer (solid colour) is the best way to go, i agree, but thats all well and good on a full job, you paint part of an old car that way, and it'd stand out like a sore thumb....
as for your paint theory about it being a real No No, never heard so much flannel, yes it's very dangerous stuff and if you do it for a living, get an air-fed mask (which i use), but if your doing 1 car, you'll be fine, as long as you have some sort of protection, having been painting for some years, including lorries and I've never keeled over yet, and as i say, i suffer from asthma....
as for 1800+VAT, maybee i should put my price up..... :smug:
Firstly, I never stated that "wings " should be seam welded! please read again! what I am stating is non genuine wheel arches are OK to fit, as long as they are seam welded, or continuously welded, and not "tack" welded into place, otherwise moisture will penetrate the overlap of the 2 panels, eventually going rusty..
Secondly, I can make any non genuine panel fit! the problem is the very poor quality of the steel that is used in manufacturing, expect to get 2-3 years before the panel reaches a point that its no longer viable to paint yet again! with the amount of people specializing in VWs.. breakers etc.. and Ebay, pattern panels ARE a waste of money!
Third, Your estimate for paint! £150... how do you arrive at that figure! we are talking cars with approx 11 painted surfaces, that works out at just under £14 per panel, let alone painting the door shuts! and you've not even included Sanding disks, filler, scotchbright, 3-4 rolls of masking tape, masking paper, etch primer, spirit wipe, tack rags, stonechip coating, wetndry, polish, heat and electricity anticorrosion treatment, believe me, by the time you done, you'll be up to the figure that I said!
Fourth, Isocyanate paints have cyanide in the them.. nuff said!
Please don't think I'm having a go at you, I'm not.. Ive seen your car it looks great, fit finish etc... just don't sell yourself short, its not worth it, If your any good, you'll allways be busy, If you need to discuss how to charge for things the right way, PM me
cheers
Tom
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sounds to me that you are both talking sense and know what your on about !,
but have got your wires crossed somewhere along the line !!,
:smiley:
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Your estimate for paint! £150... how do you arrive at that figure! we are talking cars with approx 11 painted surfaces, that works out at just under £14 per panel, let alone painting the door shuts! and you've not even included Sanding disks, filler, scotchbright, 3-4 rolls of masking tape, masking paper, etch primer, spirit wipe, tack rags, stonechip coating, wetndry, polish, heat and electricity anticorrosion treatment...
that's roughly the cost of paint, not a paint-job, all the other stuff you have mentioned, i would put down as consumables, i mean, you can't invoice sum1 for the 12 D,A pads you used on their car, all in your looking at a price of around £90 per panel, the quotes i gave for a full paint £800, doesn't include doorshuts and is an opening introductory offer, as we are a new business, so it's to drag the trade in and get the word spread....... :wink:
                       cheers anway for the tips  :huh:
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Just like to say best wishes with your new venture.. and looking forward to reading posts from satisfied customers
Cheers
Tom
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cheers m8.... :wink: