GolfGTIforum.co.uk
General => The garage => Topic started by: golfvr6 on 11 November 2003, 16:46
-
This is an interesting link about filters/induction kits, www.club-vr6.co.uk/bible.htm , increases of 6-10bhp on a vr6?
-
Any comments Mr slim?
-
intersting stuff mr VR6
-
ooo wee - where do I start?
So everything written on webpages is gospel yeah?
Any spod with a computer and webpage authoring software can make a "tuning bible" on the worldwide Interweb.
Don't be so niave! Even I give you more credit than that mrv6.
Look all I stated was that drilling holes in airboxes do 'pretty much' jack sh1t, apart from increase induction noise and the smile on your/OB's face.
And as for induction kits they have been berated in the press becuse on the majority of modern motors they have a detrimental effect on the fuelling:
for example: leaner running
I can't see why you're getting your pants so sticky all because I have an opposing view. This is a discussion board and you are entitled to your opinion. So don't try and c&p some URL to prove a point when it proves nothing - I could paste a differing arguement in retalliation - but I have too many porn pages to browse.
And don't give it some waffle how, if you do work on more cars than me - it some how gives you authority that must be listened to - you don't know who I am or what I do - I may sit on my arse, that's my perogative.
Please leave your anal retentiveness at the door
ciao xxx
::)
-
http://www.robbscelebs.org/~mp/leilani_dowding/mp_lelani_dowding.html
:o :o :o
this shows boobies and is not suitable for minors!
-
Temper temper Mr.slim shady, i think i rest my case, or do i need to carry on now you have thrown all your toys out of your pram?
-
I think i would rely on Clubvr6 ( and so would many others ) as a good source rather than you Mr.slim shady :-*
-
oh Jesus wept
Did you not read the c&p someone else put on the other thread? where you were getting yourself in a tiz.
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?board=7;action=display;threadid=3180;start=10
If you're really happy with your plastic bolt on's - pls carry on.
there's no helping some people
::)
-
whats with the porn?
-
performance air filters and drilling holes will not increase your bhp by hardly anythin.
It will make the noise louder at the top end of your revs therefore you go faster so it sounds louder.
Leave slim alone!!
-
you nonces that site is just a bloody big advert!!
-
It will make the noise louder at the top end of your revs therefore you go faster so it sounds louder.
Nice one, lol, I'm off to take my performane exhaust off 'cos it will be really loud then, and the car should fly ;D
-
no no silly billy you have it the wrong way round - coz it sounds louder at top ends you will go faster so it sounds louder sorry but your car won't actually have a higher bhp. ;D
Tho golfvr6 will prob say that if you add some furry dice you'll add an extra 10bhp :P and if you drill a hole in these dice the air can flow thro rather than round so that will add ANOTHER 10 bhp
-
Get over it love, a sports filter and exhaust will add extra BHP, generally about 10%. OK its not a lot but not bad for the money, saying it does nothing but just noise is well bullsh!t. Physics? engines breathe, better breathing, extra power and torque. Its not hard.
-
. Physics? engines breathe, better breathing, extra power and torque. Its not hard.
i got to agree with vr6 here
also if it had no affect why do insurance companies charge higher premiums for cars with non standard intake/exhaust systems?
-
wanna talk to me bout physics? go ahead - i've done a degree in physics. You lot are an advertisers dream - beleive all the hype!
The reason it adds to your insurance is coz the type of peeps to add it to their car are the kind who drive faster (boy racers). This isn't my opinion its wat the insurance companies go by.
-
I ain't no expert, but surely the injectors provide a measured amount of fuel. Adding more air weakens the mixture causing the engine to run lean. ???
Unless the ECU can detect the increase in air flow then it might be doing more damage than increasing performance. I have seen a couple of cars which have bolt on induction kits and it just destroyed the sparkplugs, after a 1000 miles or so.
:-\
-
here here!
-
I ain't no expert, but surely the injectors provide a measured amount of fuel. Adding more air weakens the mixture causing the engine to run lean. ???
Unless the ECU can detect the increase in air flow then it might be doing more damage than increasing performance. I have seen a couple of cars which have bolt on induction kits and it just destroyed the sparkplugs, after a 1000 miles or so.
:-\
Thats exactly what the airflow meter does, detect the amount of air entering the engine. On all newer engines there are also oxygen sensors which will also pick up a weak/rich mixture from the exhaust content.
Any more questions?
-
wanna talk to me bout physics? go ahead - i've done a degree in physics. You lot are an advertisers dream - beleive all the hype!
The reason it adds to your insurance is coz the type of peeps to add it to their car are the kind who drive faster (boy racers). This isn't my opinion its wat the insurance companies go by.
Its not just believing hype at all. I have used these elements on several cars and they WORK! no massive power gains, but very good improved mid-range performance, and a bit more up top. A lovely noise too. Thats what i am saying, i haven't just read it , i've tried it. All in all not bad for under 100 bar.
-
wanna talk to me bout physics? go ahead - i've done a degree in physics. You lot are an advertisers dream - beleive all the hype!
The reason it adds to your insurance is coz the type of peeps to add it to their car are the kind who drive faster (boy racers). This isn't my opinion its wat the insurance companies go by.
So your trying to tell us all that by increasing the breathing capabilities of an engine which in turn will increase the mixture with the air flow sensor will not make your car say 10% quicker than a standard car.?
Your gonna say that fitting uprated suspension which lowers a cars centre of gravity and gives it a lower pollar moment of inertia dont work next.
-
filters work a bit sound great aswell . exhuast not to sure make a nice noise but unless you change complete exhuast system you wont notice to much difference ............. un less ...................... you get the head ported and polished i know this works coz a friend of mine had a audi 80 sport did the exhuast and filter thing (made a bit of difference) then he done the head and the mid range torque was quite amazing !!!1 :)
-
wanna talk to me bout physics? go ahead - i've done a degree in physics. You lot are an advertisers dream - beleive all the hype!
The reason it adds to your insurance is coz the type of peeps to add it to their car are the kind who drive faster (boy racers). This isn't my opinion its wat the insurance companies go by.
So your trying to tell us all that by increasing the breathing capabilities of an engine which in turn will increase the mixture with the air flow sensor will not make your car say 10% quicker than a standard car.?
Your gonna say that fitting uprated suspension which lowers a cars centre of gravity and gives it a lower pollar moment of inertia dont work next.
What you talking about mate, lowing a car just makes it look nicer ;)
-
K&N 57i adds about 1bhp from what ive read... a pipercross viper adds about 5bhp or summet
a full exhaust system and a pipercross viper adds about 10-15bhp cos its breathing and farting better.
sorry... had to use basic human talk there.
-
I use K&Ns and they are not bad, never tried pipercross.
-
Yeah the standard Pipercross is about the same as the 57i K&N, but this Viper thing has loadsa special ducting and crap...
costs about ?150 more than a 57i
-
Every1 seems to be getting quite highrate wiv this little subject, at the end of the day the reason so many people buy and rave bout inductions, an holes in ya box, is because it's alot more affordable than ?300- ?500 for a polished head or 2! an yeah it does make it sound louder more than faster, but if it sounds louder more people will see you in your very clean sexy more expensive than an faster than a saxo GOLF which is really why we buy a golf anyway aint it??
-
I have a pipercross and I really don't notice a diff. maybe 1bhp but def not more than that.
-
You would notice the difference on a vr6 ;D
-
Prob I've only got a mk2 8v. I'd love a vr6 tho
-
Probably why it doesn't do a lot, they work well on valvers too.
-
well unfortunately I wouldn't know :'(
-
yep "pretty" much
-
HA HA ;D :-*
-
ive a piperX replacment filter, and cut-away airbox on mine, and it does help it breath easier
-
This might sound abit wierd but I replaced my K&N with a standard filter and i havnt noticed the diffrence ???
-
To be perfectly honest I think the only way anyone will really know is to have their car rolling road tuned/tested with an original setup and then change to an alternative and have it tested again.
Then and only then will you really know as it will be given to you in a controlled environment with hard printed results.
Just my 2cps :)
Paul..
-
heres the simple way...
follow the flow of air from the when it first enters the induction system, through the air filter, throttle body, plenum chamber, inlet ports into the combustion chamber. then follow the burnt gases out of the exhaust ports, exhaust manifold, exhaust system tailpipe and away. If you look to see where the most prominent constrictions are you'll find its probably the valve to valve seat area, the inlet and exhaust ports around the area of the valve guid bosses, and poor alignment of said ports to manifolds causing turbulance in the gas flows :P. get these right and your away! just a change of filter will give you not a lot! :'(
-
i lost ya when you said follow! he he ;D
quick q's, does any1 no where there's a good roolin road place to go to in essex area, how much? cheers in advvance!
-
Sports air filters will make a difference to the output but only really if combined with a minimum of a sports exhaust. I would do a sports filter, exhaust and a ported and polished head.
Porting a cylinder head is in itself quite an easy task to do. You need to get a new manifold gasket and best to get another head to do it on so you dont have the car off road to long, spray engineers blue on the manifold surfaces of the head and inlet manifold and scribe a line with the gasket acting like a template.
You'll see a line left on the port and this is where the gasket is sitting so anything inside this line is restrictive and needs to be removed. easily done with a die grinder. Do this to both the inlet manifold and head and the air flow will interupted and will mean better flow especially if polishing is also done.
-
re- modulators response.
matching the the manifolds to the ports of the cylinder head isn't really "porting" and polishing doesn't really do anything to increase the air flow through the head. "porting" in the simplest form, involves getting an air powered die cutter runnig at about 20,000 rpm and carving as much possible as humanly possible out of your ports before you go through into the water jacket. you'll need to carve out as wide and deep as you can around the back of the valve guides. use a multi angled valve seat cutter to ensure the valve sits on the edge of its seat. If your not sure what your doing, spend about ten grand on a flow bench and try out different porting techniques on a pile of old heads and you'll find it comes back to the same thing, get in there and cut as much as you can but leave a smooth, profiled transition from valve seat to manifold.
-
re- modulators response.
matching the the manifolds to the ports of the cylinder head isn't really "porting" and polishing doesn't really do anything to increase the air flow through the head. "porting" in the simplest form, involves getting an air powered die cutter runnig at about 20,000 rpm and carving as much possible as humanly possible out of your ports before you go through into the water jacket. you'll need to carve out as wide and deep as you can around the back of the valve guides. use a multi angled valve seat cutter to ensure the valve sits on the edge of its seat. If your not sure what your doing, spend about ten grand on a flow bench and try out different porting techniques on a pile of old heads and you'll find it comes back to the same thing, get in there and cut as much as you can but leave a smooth, profiled transition from valve seat to manifold.
I know exactly what porting is miguel.
Porting is removing un needed metal from inside the head ports so that you have an unhindered flow into the cylinder.
A head is a mass produced item and is by its very nature rough in the way it is cast and also is open for improvement.
As indeed you said you use a die grinder and I myself are currently messing around on an old head from a GT scirocco to see and experiment with what I find. I am also looking out on ebay for old 16V heads just to mess around on.
I just wanted to point out that the actual matching of inlet manifold to cylinder head isnt actually that hard and you would pay some tuners ?80 for what is a basic task if you have the right tools.
-
yep!
-
all these filter things, im back to old skool mk1 k-jet, someone said to get an induction kit, only pipercross manufacture them, but how with air/fuel braided hoses running from top of box across to block? if anyone knows be interested to know.
had an itg cone on a mk2 digifant, did have a bit more but only when cooler, when it was a hot day or engine got nice and warm, there was less performance.
driven plenty of vr6's couple with induction kits, sounded good but seemed les responsive until about 3-3500 revs. supercharged with a better full exhaust system gives much better results in sound and power.
also on that vr6 page posted about the cam-shafts, whats that about higher mileage "you might need to have new tappets too??!" new bottom end could be needed if it goes bang. been warned off cams in high mileage cars unless everything is done.
-
The pipercross induction kit is like a cage with the top of the air box still on it. Vr6 will obviously be better with a supercharger on it, but it will cost over 2k. I've never found induction kits/filters to work badly when its hot. The power spread on my vr6 was all at the top until i put my k+n on it. I think its a case of, filters are worth doing cos its under 100 quid. As for high mileage engines, its not recommended to mod them too much without a decent rebuild.
-
performance filters do work but work best when they have decent cold air feeds or are sealed away from the engine bay where the hot air is (the best option). A modern engine shouldn't run lean as they use ego/uego sensors measuring the exhaust gases and they have air flow meters/sensors measuring the flow and sometimes temp of intake air !
If a filter is fitted to a car the ecu will account for the changes in air flow and exhaust gases. performance filters flow more air which is good but don't actually filter as well. the whole thing is get a bigger filter it has less restriction but have decent cold air feed to it or seal/insulate it from the engine bay !
this is my opinion and not everyone may agree but hey life would be boring if everyone agreed !
-
I'll agree with that.
-
Yep
-
wanna talk to me bout physics? go ahead - i've done a degree in physics. You lot are an advertisers dream - beleive all the hype!
The reason it adds to your insurance is coz the type of peeps to add it to their car are the kind who drive  faster (boy racers). This isn't my opinion its wat the insurance companies go by.
Gotta agree with you there Golfgal. In Mr VR6's defense induction kits DO add BHP, one for increased airflow at high revs, 2, Colder air if u add the pipe that sucks air from out of the engine bay. 3, slightly increased fuel as a result of slicker airflow. I see it as attention to detail. If you take care of the smaller aspects of tuning, Induction, Exhaust, ECU Remap... then moving onto Cams, Ports you can see significant gains.
I want an induction kit for my V6 4motion but it's purely for the nice sound it will make :-D
-
The best filter to use in my experience is the k&n panel filter with a the air ducts removed, and/or drilling.
I experimented with the vr6 for a while, paper filter with standard box, induction kit, k&n panel with drilled box.
The best results for me was the k&n panel with a drilled box. The standard box with paper filter, made the engine feel very flat until over 4000rpm, with the k&n panel and drilled box, the power band felt like it started at 2500rpm instead.
I think people completely miss the point about performance filters.
You won't get many more bhp/torque overall, what you get is a pretty decent increase in bhp/torque between 2000-4000rpm, a very noticeable difference. This makes the car feel much more driveable, and will improve engine response and acceleration a bit.
Its not just about noise.
-
The best filter to use in my experience is the k&n panel filter with a the air ducts removed, and/or drilling.
I experimented with the vr6 for a while, paper filter with standard box, induction kit, k&n panel with drilled box.
The best results for me was the k&n panel with a drilled box. The standard box with paper filter, made the engine feel very flat until over 4000rpm, with the k&n panel and drilled box, the power band felt like it started at 2500rpm instead.
I think people completely miss the point about performance filters.
You won't get many more bhp/torque overall, what you get is a pretty decent increase in bhp/torque between 2000-4000rpm, a very noticeable difference. This makes the car feel much more driveable, and will improve engine response and acceleration a bit.
Its not just about noise.
here here
-
random topic brought up after 3 yrs, then after 4 yrs, hmmm!
still, its always a topic that gets brought up and misunderstood :cool:
-
So do i go and buy a k+n or shall i stick with my standard filter and drilled box?