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Model specific boards => Golf mk8 => Topic started by: monkeyhanger on 25 June 2022, 21:34
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I feel a bit cheeky for posting here, but I know there's a fair few knowledgeable people here...
I looked to do some sealant application on our Aurora Blue Cupra Born today and came across something I've never had on 15 prior VAG cars bought new. The paint feels weird, it feels consistently rough, like frosted glass and I don't know why. Anyone else come across this on a new VAG car?
The Aurora Blue is called a "special paint", although I suspect its special by virtue of its price only (£850, vs £565 for the other metallic shades), so I really don't think it's meant to be that way.
I'm thinking it's been a lazy/piss poor PDI and either:-
There are transit film residues that should've been removed with alcohol or a similar solvent to give a silky finish.
Or
Most cars arrive in that state and they should get a full basic machine polish.
Any thoughts?
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Have you used iron x and tar and glue remover?
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Not yet Chris. Its the first time I've really touched the paintwork on it and was amazed how rough it was. It looks glossy, but just running your hand across it, it even sounds a bit scratchy, again, like the frosted side of some privacy glass.
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It may be worth going over a small area with a clay bar and seeing what comes off, I’d suspect it to be transport contaminants as you say, maybe wasn’t cleaned as well as one would hope a new car would be, and whatever they washed it with didn’t have the muscle to remove it.
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If this car is new monkeyhanger straight back to the dealer for the paint to be examined. I had a slight paint imperfection on my clubsport 45 on the offside rear quarter when it was PDI, that was sorted out under warranty. The job has been done as per VW approval and was fantastic. Perhaps as they are built in Spain they have added a little sand and sangria !!!
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If this car is new monkeyhanger straight back to the dealer for the paint to be examined, they have all the depths measured gauges and other such items to determine whether this is correct. I had a slight paint imperfection on my clubsport 45 on the offside rear quarter when it was PDI, that was sorted out under warranty. The job has been done as per VW approval and was fantastic work. Perhaps as they are built in Spain they have added a little sand and sangria :wink:
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Did you buy from Seat Woking ?
Yep, SMC Woking. Does it have a crap reputation? I had to pick it up from their crappy little used car place half a mile away from their main dealership, maybe that's where they do all their PDIs?
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@monkeyhanger; sounds like the rough feeling paintwork is likely to be embedded contaminants (e.g. iron fall out). I currently have some on my car - I can feel it but can’t see it - and need to find the time to do a decontamination to remove it. Is the rough feeling on the Born on all panels? Assuming Cupra wrap their cars in a similar way to VW with protective sheeting when they leave the factory (bonnet, roof and tailgate), then those panels should be pretty much free of embedded contaminants - at least much less affected than the vertical panels which are less likely to have been wrapped / covered.
As others have suggested, I’d try some iron fall out remover and a tar / glue remover first and if that doesn’t work, I’d try a fine grade clay bar and plenty of suitable lubricant. I’d try an inconspicuous area first before moving on to larger sections. I personally would only go back to the dealer as a last resort - I’ve read many horror stories (I know you have too) of dealers poor new car prep and subsequent rectification of issues such as this; there’s a good chance if left to the dealer to sort it, you could also end up with a free scratch and swirl treatment!
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If this car is new monkeyhanger straight back to the dealer for the paint to be examined, they have all the depths measured gauges and other such items to determine whether this is correct. I had a slight paint imperfection on my clubsport 45 on the offside rear quarter when it was PDI, that was sorted out under warranty. The job has been done as per VW approval and was fantastic work. Perhaps as they are built in Spain they have added a little sand and sangria :wink:
Back to the supplying dealership is unfeasible, it's 283 miles away. The Cupra Born is built on the same line as the ID3, in Zwickau, Germany.
I don't think this car has had a full respray (seeing as 90% of the car's paintwork surface feels like this and the Born is brand new out - not enough time to have done it) and a guy in warranty for my local dealership group already checked paint thickness when he looked at a sill extension gap (which has been resolved locally) - spot on 110 microns. These days, automotive paint from the factory is so thin, when they check paint thickness, the giveaway of a respray is that the paint is too thick rather than too thin!
I suppose I'll have to take it to BMW Vertu bodyshop in Sunderland as they're my local Seat Dealership's approved bodyshop for an opinion (they don't have their own).
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@monkeyhanger; sounds like the rough feeling paintwork is likely to be embedded contaminants (e.g. iron fall out). I currently have some on my car - I can feel it but can’t see it - and need to find the time to do a decontamination to remove it. Is the rough feeling on the Born on all panels? Assuming Cupra wrap their cars in a similar way to VW with protective sheeting when they leave the factory (bonnet, roof and tailgate), then those panels should be pretty much free of embedded contaminants - at least much less affected than the vertical panels which are less likely to have been wrapped / covered.
As others have suggested, I’d try some iron fall out remover and a tar / glue remover first and if that doesn’t work, I’d try a fine grade clay bar and plenty of suitable lubricant. I’d try an inconspicuous area first before moving on to larger sections. I personally would only go back to the dealer as a last resort - I’ve read many horror stories (I know you have too) of dealers poor new car prep and subsequent rectification of issues such as this; there’s a good chance if left to the dealer to sort it, you could also end up with a free scratch and swirl treatment!
The passenger side doors are less affected than the rest of the car, including the roof. I Iron X'd our other Born (white) that I got a week prior and there were very few points of fallout indicated. The panels are too consistently rough across the whole panel to be a few embedded particles here or there on the panel. The car will gave been wrapped the same as an ID3, they're from the sane Zwickau line I'm guessing it's protective film adhesive residues that have lost their tack but still feel rough because some lazy arsenal didn't remove them with a suitable solvent as part of their PDI.
No way I'm going at a brand new car with a clay bar or solvents, and at my expense - I want Woking to pay for local rectification. I will have to send a firm email to them tomorrow after I have had BMW Vertu's opinion.
It is galling that you pay £39025 for a new car, the sill extension needs refixing, the paintwork seems to have undergone no preparation and you have to pick it up from their scruffy little used car place down the road from their main dealership. Very poor customer collection experience.
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I hope you get it sorted. I had one experience with Woking and wouldn’t pee on them if they were on fire
I still have the threat of a sh!tty Cupra review.
You can definitely tell its a sellers market right now, with the consumer being treated as if they're being done a massive favour in being sold a car for full RRP. The dealerships have never had it so good.
It'll be short detour from work tomorrow, to pop to the excellent BMW Vertu bodyshop and ask them how to proceed (they fixed the sill issue free of charge). If it needs more than a simple wipe with a certain solvent/solution, or that solution is costly, I'll be pushing for Woking to pay for it.
It's the most I've ever spent on a car, and also the sh!ttiest experience in collecting one. They had a rare car available and in stock, that's the only reason I went with them.
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So when I had my paint imperfection done it required the vehicle being examined and paint measured by the VW approved body shop. Photographs and depths measurements taken and submitted, VW agreed their fault and work done which I have to say was exceptional and as it should be. This particular VW body shop deals with all high end cars, Lamborghini, Bentley etc.. It did cheese me off because it’s meant to be brand new! But in the scheme of things it was minor, my dealer I had bought the car off gripped the situation and dealt with the issue with the work done correctly. This has got to be the correct way of dealing with it, you have to go back to your legal rights as a buyer in the UK. The items bought are fit and proper for the purpose they were bought for. The dealer will review your complaint, get the car examined, supply a courtesy car, results sent to Seat UK and then issue dealt with. The moment you start attempting to rectify that paintwork will be the time the warranty will be voided. Your clearly unhappy with it monkeyhanger and you’ll probably go and inspect it a thousand times as we all put our views on this post. Just my thoughts bearing the monies you paid for it.
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OK, after much to-ing and fro-ing, the local dealership group, Pulman, have confirmed that the bodywork issue is copiuous amounts of fallout that should have been dealt with by the PDI process and clearly haven't been. They had a quick go with a 3M polishing compound that wouldn't touch the fallout, but some progress was made with a claybar - their prognosis is that a detailer should be paid to claybar the whole car.
The guy I dealt with at Pulman kindly emailed the head of sales at the supplying dealership stating as much.
I am hoping that this prompts the head of sales to backtrack from his initial stance of "if you won't bring it all the way back to Woking, I won't do anything for you" (with no guarantees that they would do anything even if I did).
I've been trying to call them for ages but no one is picking up the phone. I have a few things to consider mentioning, but going off some of heir trust pilot reviews, I don't think they'll give a sh!te.
1. I'm pretty sure I could return the car under the distance selling laws and get my money back (leaving them with a second hand car to sell) - all selling documentation was signed remotely, the car was paid for in full, remotely and I simply picked the car up and drove it off, 8 days ago. According to the car sales ombudsman website, this constitutes a distance sale. I have looked through all of the contractual stuff and there's nothing there that obliges me to waive my distance selling rights. Seems a bit extreme, but there are still a few other e-boosts available.
2. Given the timing of the first Born's collection (a week prior to this one) and subsequent contact by Cupra UK for the customer satisfaction survey (last Friday), the customer satisfaction survey for this Born is imminent - i'll be sure to give them a sh!tty rating if they refuse to have the issue resolved remotely at their cost.
Update: Finally got to speak to the sales manager after being repeatedly hung up on during auto transfer when calling the sales team directly, then calling the service team and asking to be transferred.
He's a waffler, suggesting that a detailer is a no go as they are "fanatics" with standards way beyond expectations for anyone not buying a Ferrari. I kind of agree with that to an extent - I wouldn't pay £600 for paint correction and a ceramic coat like some would do here. However, he reckons that £70 for a clay bar all over is what they pay to their external contracted body shops to do it for them when required, no way in the world would anyone just charge that for what is probably 2-3 hours labour plus the cost of a clay bar and some lubricant
Presumably a machine polish is required afterwards to get rid of any clay marring/holograms, so there's another 30-60 mins labour. I can't see that running to less than £150 all in. He gave the impression that the born arrives fully covered, but the local dealership showed me the coverings - basically the whole tailgate, the tiny bonnet, but not the surrounding area (that looks part of the bonnet, but isn't) and a bit on the front bumper are all that is covered.
He's presumably escalated it and says he will call me tomorrow, i'm doubtful.
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Surely this is a problem that you’d resolve yourself very quickly with a £15 quid bottle of tar and fallout remover? This is a very common issue with new cars and really it’s simple to resolve and not worth getting so worked up about.
For what it’s worth, I really wouldn’t let a dealership go at it with a clay bar. There’s a good chance they’ll make the problem worse. Iron fallout remover is what you need, which is a simple spray on, let it dwell for a few minutes and gently wipe or even hose off. A clay bar can be quite aggressive and probably over the top on new paintwork. Used incorrectly, it’ll mark / marr the paint.
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Surely this is a problem that you’d resolve yourself very quickly with a £15 quid bottle of tar and fallout remover? This is a very common issue with new cars and really it’s simple to resolve and not worth getting so worked up about.
For what it’s worth, I really wouldn’t let a dealership go at it with a clay bar. There’s a good chance they’ll make the problem worse. Iron fallout remover is what you need, which is a simple spray on, let it dwell for a few minutes and gently wipe or even hose off. A clay bar can be quite aggressive and probably over the top on new paintwork. Used incorrectly, it’ll mark / marr the paint.
Agree 100% with this.
I know a brand new car should never be handed over to a customer with paintwork in the state that it was on @monkeyhanger’s car, but I’d never entrust rectifying contaminated paintwork to the dealer. Easy to rectify yourself without costing a fortune - and much less hassle by not involving the dealer too.
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Surely this is a problem that you’d resolve yourself very quickly with a £15 quid bottle of tar and fallout remover? This is a very common issue with new cars and really it’s simple to resolve and not worth getting so worked up about.
For what it’s worth, I really wouldn’t let a dealership go at it with a clay bar. There’s a good chance they’ll make the problem worse. Iron fallout remover is what you need, which is a simple spray on, let it dwell for a few minutes and gently wipe or even hose off. A clay bar can be quite aggressive and probably over the top on new paintwork. Used incorrectly, it’ll mark / marr the paint.
If its that common, I'll have to consider myself lucky in my previous 15 VAG cars bought new. I'm really not some ultra fussy serial complainer, but to receive a car who's bodywork feels like frosted glass all over is not a common occurrence in my experience. I've already had Iron X on the car on Saturday (when I discovered the issue) and it brought very little up. Easier to see the purple reaction on my white Born, and that had next to no iron embedded in it either.
The clay bar application looked a hell of a lot easier than I thought it was going to be - sometimes its difficult to tell when detailers are bigging up how hard it is to get a decent finish on a car without paying a detailer to do it. I had a quick go myself while at Pulmans and looked on a few YouTube videos from US based detailing places and the golden rule seems to be lubricate and dont drop the clay.
I was a bit apprehensive about a clay bar on new paint, which is why I was pushing hard for Pulman's opinion to get the supplying dealership to take some responsibility.
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I personally wouldn't let anybody near my car with a Claybar to remove fallout, let alone a brand new car.
The trouble is the claybar will become embedded with fallout and it will effectively become a scouring pad in no time inflicting some serious marring, which will then need to be rectified by polishing
You need a proper fallout remover and let that remove it, rather than trying to physically remove it with claybars and polishing compounds.
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Surely this is a problem that you’d resolve yourself very quickly with a £15 quid bottle of tar and fallout remover? This is a very common issue with new cars and really it’s simple to resolve and not worth getting so worked up about.
For what it’s worth, I really wouldn’t let a dealership go at it with a clay bar. There’s a good chance they’ll make the problem worse. Iron fallout remover is what you need, which is a simple spray on, let it dwell for a few minutes and gently wipe or even hose off. A clay bar can be quite aggressive and probably over the top on new paintwork. Used incorrectly, it’ll mark / marr the paint.
If its that common, I'll have to consider myself lucky in my previous 15 VAG cars bought new. I'm really not some ultra fussy serial complainer, but to receive a car who's bodywork feels like frosted glass all over is not a common occurrence in my experience. I've already had Iron X on the car on Saturday (when I discovered the issue) and it brought very little up. Easier to see the purple reaction on my white Born, and that had next to no iron embedded in it either.
The clay bar application looked a hell of a lot easier than I thought it was going to be - sometimes its difficult to tell when detailers are bigging up how hard it is to get a decent finish on a car without paying a detailer to do it. I had a quick go myself while at Pulmans and looked on a few YouTube videos from US based detailing places and the golden rule seems to be lubricate and dont drop the clay.
I was a bit apprehensive about a clay bar on new paint, which is why I was pushing hard for Pulman's opinion to get the supplying dealership to take some responsibility.
I wouldn’t expect a main dealer to clay bar a new car. They’re simply not going to spend that kind of time turning around a new hatchback when 99.9% of customers will be very happy with “it looks clean from 10 feet away”. I’d be surprised if the average person outside of fan forums such as this or detailing nerds would know what a claybar is. “Detailing” is still a very niche thing and the average car salesman most likely hasn’t a clue what you’re talking about.
So to be honest I think you’re causing yourself unnecessary grief for something you could sort yourself (or locally) for very little effort. I suppose try not to sweat the small stuff, this feels like a simple DIY fix versus arguing with a dealers and causing future awkwardness with them if warranty stuff that really needs their attention comes up.
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I personally wouldn't let anybody near my car with a Claybar to remove fallout, let alone a brand new car.
The trouble is the claybar will become embedded with fallout and it will effectively become a scouring pad in no time inflicting some serious marring, which will then need to be rectified by polishing
You need a proper fallout remover and let that remove it, rather than trying to physically remove it with claybars and polishing compounds.
Already gone down the fallout route - used Iron X (actually G-Techniq W6) and it pulled next to nothing off. - so there was very little iron based fallout Whatever the contaminant is, it seems to be adhered to the paint rather than embedded in it, and the local VAG approved bodyshop that Pulman uses thinks it is likely airborne tree sap. a small application of the Pulman dealership's own tar remover didn't shift it either.
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It sounds like something like Autosmart Tardis could be the solution, if it's not iron contamination
I'd try and avoid clay barring as a first step, as it does create minor swirling/marring, unless you are using a very mild clay.
https://autosmart.co.uk/shop/tardis-1l
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I wouldn't be letting a dealer anywhere near your paintwork with anything. As you've said it's the most expensive car you've bought so why not let a professional detailer look at it. You've got probably the best one in the North East right on your doorstep. As for the sales manager saying detailers are fanatics it just shows how arrogant and ignorant he is. In the grand scheme of things having the paintwork looked at properly and potentially sorted without damaging it is surely the most important thing.
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I wouldn't be letting a dealer anywhere near your paintwork with anything. As you've said it's the most expensive car you've bought so why not let a professional detailer look at it. You've got probably the best one in the North East right on your doorstep. As for the sales manager saying detailers are fanatics it just shows how arrogant and ignorant he is. In the grand scheme of things having the paintwork looked at properly and potentially sorted without damaging it is surely the most important thing.
It might be the most expensive car i've bought, but I get the "fanatic" comment to a point. The shoddy dealership in Woking are on one extreme end of the spectrum, and detailing standards are on the other. I did baulk at the £1300 quote for clear wrapping on the front end, in my mind set that's just crazy money for the service offered, where is seems that prevention is significanty more expensive than the cure.
I do get on a mass produced car, you can't expect the dealerships to lavish £600 worth of detailing on every car they sell, i just want to get the piss poor current situation to a decent situation.
They've made it clear that they won't fund a £600 detail that would meet a rich Arab's expectations for his Lambo. I'm not looking for that level of perfection, especially out of my own pocket. If I can get 90% of the way there for 10% of the cost, that'll do for me.
I've got today off, so i'm going to go at the car with some Autoglym tar and glue remover first and if that doesn't shift it, i'll move to the mild clay bar and machine polish afterwards, then look to apply a decent sealant (i'm all out of C2V3, so will have to buy something else as an order with Ultimate Finish has been on back order for 2 weeks waiting for their upholstery protector to come back into stock. Doesn't look like a lazy day for me.
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As for the sales manager saying detailers are fanatics it just shows how arrogant and ignorant he is.
Arrogant and ignorant; definitely - but then most dealership staff haven’t graduated beyond the single bucket, sponge and wash leather for maintaining a car’s paintwork. Like others have said, I wouldn’t let a dealership loose on my car with a clay bar - most don’t even know how to wash a car correctly, let alone carry out a paintwork decontamination process.
I’d describe my self as a ‘hobbyist detailer’ - I just like my car to look decent. I’d not consider myself to be fanatical about the way my car looks and it’s certainly no garage queen. IMHO there’s a difference between being a fanatic and liking your car to look decent.
As for using a clay bar - I’ve clayed cars I’ve owned with good success (admittedly, I’ve never done a brand new car though where the paint may not have fully hardened). IMHO provided a mild clay is used with plenty of lubrication (I use a quick detailer), and the outside surface of the clay bar is folded to the inside regularly so the surface of the clay that’s being applied to the paintwork is always clean, there’s little risk of marring or inflicting damage.
Really important to keep the bodywork panels being clayed well lubricated though, keeping the surface of the clay that’s in contact with the paintwork clean, and only use light pressure - let the clay do the work for you. Ending up with paintwork that feels ultra slick and smooth is very satisfying. :cool: Additionally, the longevity and durability of any protection product applied to thoroughly decontaminated paintwork will be maximised as there’ll be a very strong bond between the protection product and the paintwork.
Now I must get round to decontaminating my car’s paintwork soon………… :whistle:
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A lot of fun things in this thread to talk about.
Firstly the paint, if it feels like frosted glass and sounds like sand paper it's heavy contamination, the liquid removers won't work and I'd personally just skip the mild claybar and go straight to a heavy one and if it's the entire car safe yourself the hassle and get a clay mitt to make it faster because claying in boring!
As for using a clay bar - I’ve clayed cars I’ve owned with good success (admittedly, I’ve never done a brand new car though where the paint may not have fully hardened). IMHO provided a mild clay is used with plenty of lubrication (I use a quick detailer), and the outside surface of the clay bar is folded to the inside regularly so the surface of the clay that’s being applied to the paintwork is always clean, there’s little risk of marring or inflicting damage.
As SRGTD said lots of lubrication helps to reducing marring or damage, I just spray snowfoam on top and use it after it's been washed as it's also lubricative, but it's important to note claybars are an abrasive tool, and will add swirls to the paintwork so you always want to follow this up with polishing or a filling glaze.
As with the Sales Manager said detailers are fanatics, of course we are! :grin: If we weren't you'd get the same standard he delivered the car in! A £600 detail isn't for Lamborghini's it's for any car as I speak I have a Skoda VRS in for one, for all that you want from the car a maximum of £200 would get you 95-95% of paint perfection.
That being said the way they delivered the car is not on, but realistically they've saved you hassle as clearly they don't know what they're doing with bodywork and would've risked more damage than good.
I'm all out of C2V3, so will have to buy something else
Gyeon WetCoat or Koch Chemie So.02, you'll thank me later :smiley:
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A lot of fun things in this thread to talk about.
Firstly the paint, if it feels like frosted glass and sounds like sand paper it's heavy contamination, the liquid removers won't work and I'd personally just skip the mild claybar and go straight to a heavy one and if it's the entire car safe yourself the hassle and get a clay mitt to make it faster because claying in boring!
As for using a clay bar - I’ve clayed cars I’ve owned with good success (admittedly, I’ve never done a brand new car though where the paint may not have fully hardened). IMHO provided a mild clay is used with plenty of lubrication (I use a quick detailer), and the outside surface of the clay bar is folded to the inside regularly so the surface of the clay that’s being applied to the paintwork is always clean, there’s little risk of marring or inflicting damage.
As SRGTD said lots of lubrication helps to reducing marring or damage, I just spray snowfoam on top and use it after it's been washed as it's also lubricative, but it's important to note claybars are an abrasive tool, and will add swirls to the paintwork so you always want to follow this up with polishing or a filling glaze.
As with the Sales Manager said detailers are fanatics, of course we are! :grin: If we weren't you'd get the same standard he delivered the car in! A £600 detail isn't for Lamborghini's it's for any car as I speak I have a Skoda VRS in for one, for all that you want from the car a maximum of £200 would get you 95-95% of paint perfection.
That being said the way they delivered the car is not on, but realistically they've saved you hassle as clearly they don't know what they're doing with bodywork and would've risked more damage than good.
I'm all out of C2V3, so will have to buy something else
Gyeon WetCoat or Koch Chemie So.02, you'll thank me later :smiley:
I just looked into those 2 suggestions. Presumably they look shinier/wetter when applied? I've used C2V3 for years, and although it doesn't look amazingly glossy, it does stay very hydrophobic for 4 months and then starts to fade over the next 2 months. From what I can find out online, the Gyeon lasts 3 months, and there were a few variants- is the essence stuff a concentrated version of the normal one?
4 hours of graft and I've improved the consideration hugely. I used the Autoglym tar/wax/Silicone etc remover. All over and most panels are now as smooth as you'd expect. A second go with that stuff, and a bit of rubbing on maybe 1/6 of the car improved things further. A third go was done on what remains- the drivers side wing mirror and the top parts of the doors (the area above the body crease that meets the door handles) still remain slightly rough, probably 80% better than they were. So I then gave tge whole bodywork a quick buzz with my orbital polisher and a mild white polishing pad and some Autoglym super resin polish. I was just wiping off the residues with a microfiber cloth when it started raining, so there might be some well spread out residues remaining.
I didn't go with the clay bar in the end,given how much I got off. If I want it feeling perfect as well as looking great, I'll wait for the paint to harden some more.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9fJpprPS/20220701-152627.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XZBdNNzc)
(https://i.postimg.cc/wBfrBWr7/20220701-152614.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Z9NH7L4S)
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Yes essence is a more concentrated version you can mix down, the standard gyeon is perfectly balanced so i wouldn’t bother with essence. You can apply it after a wash while the car is wet and so you’ve detailed the car in 5 minutes and will have great gloss!
I don’t use C2V3 unless it’s on a gtechniq applied car anymore, too many better options now.