GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk7 => Topic started by: DaveA on 04 August 2020, 11:37
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So, I have been living with my 19 reg GTI Performance for some 14 months now. Whilst I am impressed with the dynamics of the car, and also the amount of equipment it came with, I am finding that the number of rattles, squeaks and creaks the car has is a significant negative point to ownership…
The pano roof creaks and squeaks like an old wooden ship, and the GummiPfleger stick only seems to cure it for a few weeks at a time… The passenger seat back vibrated persistently with engine load (was made better by workshop but still does it occasionally)… The drivers seat creaks very annoyingly from the base at the rear from lateral load when cornering (originally fixed one with a new base, but was back again quickly, if ever fixed in first place)… The passenger b-piller has a rattle in it (loose cable to speaker) that was only partially fixed… There’s another one mid front somewhere… and some from the back… The front consol area makes noises if my leg rests on it... There’s also something from the drivers b pillar area…
Some unwanted noises are better/worse in warmer weather and vise versa...
Honestly, this is way too much to expect from anew car with less than 9,000 miles under the belt… I had three BMW 3 series before the Golf and none of those has any noises like this...
Do other owners have similar issues..?
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The 67 plate 340i I had before my 18 plate GTi Performance was far creakier if that offers any reassurance....?
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That’s quite a list! I haven’t had any issues from the pan roof or generally with the exception of having to wrap some tape around the rear seat latching loops to stop a persistent creak.
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Don't have a pano roof, but despite VW's obvious cheapening in the construction of the cars over the last few years, I've been commendably impressed at no rattle or squeaks in over 2 years of ownership. Pretty good for a VW.
I did have one but then found it was my type pressure gauge rattling around in my drivers seat underside drawer - quickly resolved by putting it into a foam tube ;D
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So, I have been living with my 19 reg GTI Performance for some 14 months now. ........................
I feel your pain. There is nothing worse than rattles and creaks. You get so tuned into them and can become obsessed which totally detracts from your car enjoyment.
Have you asked for help here or purely from the dealer?
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I had the creaky drivers' seat too. They replaced numerous bits, and I had to wait about 6 weeks for the leather to come in from Germany. All resolved now though.
They also kind of fixed the noisy door panels - my passenger door seems to rattle from around where the ambient lighting is.
My main gripe is the rubber seals round the window and in the folding mirrors, which seem to dry out in the sun and start creaking and squeaking. Need to look into a fix for that to make it more "supple" again, I guess
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Get some Krytox for the door and roof seals, applied annually should see all the creaks gone (gummi stuff doesn't last so you are wasting your time with that). Anti rattle tape on the rear seat latches should eliminate a lot of your problems. On mine the rear parcel shelf was quite rattly so tape on the hinges to take out the slack also made a big difference. There are other common rattle points which others will no doubt help with but the only way you're going to get to grips with this is to go through them all.
Seat back latches are a must though, just do them, it will help. Mine is lovely and quiet now, well worth 5 mins and a couple of pounds :smiley:
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There are other common rattle points which others will no doubt help with but the only way you're going to get to grips with this is to go through them all.
I think that's the point, I am not sure why I should be going through all these things on a 14 months old car having done less than 9000 miles...!!! To my thinking, they should not be there... especially the ones supposedly once fixed and now coming back...
If it were just one or two, and they were fixed, I would not be too miffed... But to be chasing more after already chasing some for 14 months...!!!
Seat back latches are a must though, just do them, it will help. Mine is lovely and quiet now, well worth 5 mins and a couple of pounds :smiley:
I will definitely give that a try, although I would say I am not getting anything from them... which, might be a small blessing...... ha ha ha...
I will also try out the krytox... thanks for the tip... 🙂
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Have you asked for help here or purely from the dealer?
I did a fair bit of searching on this and other forums as well... watched too many youtube videos of people applying gummipfleger... ha ha ha ...
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I think that's the point, I am not sure why I should be going through all these things on a 14 months old car having done less than 9000 miles...!!! To my thinking, they should not be there... especially the ones supposedly once fixed and now coming back...
If it were just one or two, and they were fixed, I would not be too miffed... But to be chasing more after already chasing some for 14 months...!!!
I’d personally rather try and find and fix them myself go rather than entrust the dealer to try and do it.
The prospect of the dealer ripping the interior of my car apart, with the risk of them breaking trim clips, damaging pieces of trim and creating more creaks and rattles in the process would fill me with dread.
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I think that's the point, I am not sure why I should be going through all these things on a 14 months old car having done less than 9000 miles...!!! To my thinking, they should not be there... especially the ones supposedly once fixed and now coming back...
If it were just one or two, and they were fixed, I would not be too miffed... But to be chasing more after already chasing some for 14 months...!!!
I can't disagree with that! Problem is the sort of car that is put together better and rattle free is normally rather boring :laugh:. You'll get there and it will be worth the effort. So much happier with mine now.
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I think that's the point, I am not sure why I should be going through all these things on a 14 months old car having done less than 9000 miles...!!! To my thinking, they should not be there... especially the ones supposedly once fixed and now coming back...
If it were just one or two, and they were fixed, I would not be too miffed... But to be chasing more after already chasing some for 14 months...!!!
I’d personally rather try and find and fix them myself go rather than entrust the dealer to try and do it.
The prospect of the dealer ripping the interior of my car apart, with the risk of them breaking trim clips, damaging pieces of trim and creating more creaks and rattles in the process would fill me with dread.
Sorry, I was not very clear, the point I was trying to make is that the rattles should not be there in the first place... So I am really focussing on whether or not there is an issue of poor/reduced quality design/build over the quality of remedy...
I am of an age now where, to be honest, I am not all that into extensive DIY on my cars... and chasing/fixing rattles and noises from trim, doors, roofs, seat latches is not something I feel I should have to be doing to have a car that I should have from delivery...
... and, yes, I'm with you... I'm not letting the dealer loose on my car for those sorts of reasons... I am happy they tackle issues we can specifically localise... and they have been pretty careful fixing those, to be fair... But, no, not interested in them doing a strip and rebuild... I mean, why should we have to do that anyway...
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I think that's the point, I am not sure why I should be going through all these things on a 14 months old car having done less than 9000 miles...!!! To my thinking, they should not be there... especially the ones supposedly once fixed and now coming back...
If it were just one or two, and they were fixed, I would not be too miffed... But to be chasing more after already chasing some for 14 months...!!!
I can't disagree with that! Problem is the sort of car that is put together better and rattle free is normally rather boring :laugh:. You'll get there and it will be worth the effort. So much happier with mine now.
Well... Two of my three Porsche's had no cabin noise (and the third, did, but for a very specific reason and there was not much you could do)... and none of my BMW's did, either.... and none of these were rather boring (especially not the third Porsche, which was rather stunning and the vibration actually made me laugh)... 😉
It's odd, but I still expect the VW to have been better than what I am experiencinga dn I don;t think any of us should be chasing rattles and whatever... I had a Seat Cupra once that had an annoying rattle from the dash... The equivalent VW GTI did not do that, in those days,... But the SEAT was significantly cheaper... So should it have rattled.. no... but I kind of felt I could live with it more because of the value I was getting...
A Mk 7.5 GTI was, let's say, significantly more costly that the equivalent Hyundai i30 N Performance, and I did not hear any rattles in that when I tested it...
I have just now decided to actually write to VW and see what they say... My email may go into the bin marked "pending", but I shall give it a shot...
Give me something to do whilst still awaiting covid to pass... 😂
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I’m 18 months into ownership and never had any such problems. Feels very well put together, it has surprised me to read complaints of vw build quality on this forum. Maybe something to do with quality of roads the cars are used on? All I know is mine is solid!
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My car is 19 plate PP and rattles like mad. It was silent up until 9-10000 miles. Now it's just one after another. I'm well disappointed with the build quality of my car.
Interior noises are my worst nightmares because as soon as I can hear so many I'm thinking off selling the car. :sad:
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19 months from new and (touching a lot of wood) no rattles apart from an occasional creak from the drivers seat squab - I can live with that. Roads around my way are pretty rubbish, but I avoid pot holes and speed humps to save my suspension if that makes any difference?. It’s also generally just me in the car.
Compared to the Discovery 3 and 4 I had, also both from new, over a 13 year period, the GTI is a haven of solitude - there were so many creaks and rattles on both cars that cost a lot more than a GTI, I used to think something was wrong if they didn’t rattle.
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I have a few rattles, one in the drivers door, seems every VW I`ve owned has a rattle in the drivers door.
Another under the dash somewhere, that seems random and one underneath the rear I get over bumps. I`ve had a look and can`t find it.
The worst thing I have is road / tyre noise. I`ve even swapped tyres but that didn`t help.
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Every VW I’ve owned has rattled. It’s to be expected IMO. I’ve also been through the family and had a Seat Exeo, Leon Cupra R, and Leon FR, and a Skoda Octavia VRS, and they all rattled too. In the Leon FR I got so fed up I paid for full sound deadening and that made a huge difference.
I once had a brand new Golf MK5 which rattled in the engine bay as well as the interior, so the few rattles I can’t resolve in my MK7.5 is relatively decent.
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Every VW I’ve owned has rattled. It’s to be expected IMO. I’ve also been through the family and had a Seat Exeo, Leon Cupra R, and Leon FR, and a Skoda Octavia VRS, and they all rattled too. In the Leon FR I got so fed up I paid for full sound deadening and that made a huge difference.
I once had a brand new Golf MK5 which rattled in the engine bay as well as the interior, so the few rattles I can’t resolve in my MK7.5 is relatively decent.
Whilst I think it's that a lot of new cars maybe do rattle etc, I certainly don't think it is something we should come to accept (or consider acceptable) and expect... I mean, they do years of R&D on these things before they get released to market, and I don't think they deliberately go for the rattle as a free extra...
Having said that, it has to be the case that in any sample of similar models, some will and some will not... and maybe also the extent to which each of us is prepared to tolerate things is also a factor...
Personally, I think mine has way more "extra" noise than I would consider acceptable in a new car, and if other manufacturers can provide a noise free environment, then VW certainly can...
The question is whilst they are able to, do they want to...??
I guess it comes down to costs and to what degree they want to iron out any of these issues during R&D... Maybe not 100%... So, maybe the owners of new Mk 8's will find things they did not expect and VW can tweak design/construction later... But a 19 plate Mk7.5 is virtually end of model line and they have had 7 years or so to tweak things...
Just very disappointing considering VW would consider their Golf to be competing at the quality end of the market...
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I’m 18 months into ownership and never had any such problems. Feels very well put together, it has surprised me to read complaints of vw build quality on this forum. Maybe something to do with quality of roads the cars are used on? All I know is mine is solid!
For sure if I end up on a stretch of new, smooth paving then many of the noises calm down and become quiet... But hardly any of the roads around here are such new, smooth paving... and, yes, obviously we drive to avoid the worst of the problems, but a lot you just cannot avoid...
(as an aside, isn't this now becoming annoying, how much we have to be on the look out for bad road surface, as well as all the other things we should ordinarily be paying attention to as drivers... )...
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My car is 19 plate PP and rattles like mad. It was silent up until 9-10000 miles. Now it's just one after another. I'm well disappointed with the build quality of my car.
Interior noises are my worst nightmares because as soon as I can hear so many I'm thinking off selling the car. :sad:
We sounds quite similar in these respects...
Mine has certainly developed some more noises over the course of ownership, and having only covered 8700 odd miles so far, I am not hopeful it will stop developing more... None of us desire to be sat in a new(ish) car listening to distracting extraneous noise... Certainly not when we are paying a lot of money to do so...
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I have the same model as the Op, also on 9k miles & also with the pano roof.
Previously I had 3 BMW's, the last being a 430d. I also ran a mk6 Golf 1.6 tdi as a company car.
Whilst I love the way my GTI looks and drives, I also am experiencing similar build issues - and like some other contributers here, squeaks and rattles really irritate me to the extent I start thinking about my next car. Also I appreciate that for others, they are no big deal.
But, when I have spent a significant amount (for me) of my 'hard earned' on a so called premium priced product I don't think it is unreasonable to feel disappointed.
By contrast, my previous BMW's and in particular my mk6 Golf - felt rock solid in their build and solidity. In fact when I first drove my previous Golf I remember thinking 'this is how Mercedes used to be built'. I never had one squeak or rattle in that car over 60k hard driven miles.
It seems that VW in their quest to save costs have willingly compromised their reputation, and I imagine that will only get worse after reading initial reviews of the mk8 Golf.
It wouldn't be quite so bad if VW's dealer network were helpful and effective in sorting out these type of issues, but as others have said - they can't be relied upon to take care of your pride and joy, or put it back together properly. That is assuming they haven't already rejected your appoach by trying on the 'warranty doesn't cover trim parts' mantra........ 😡
These results from cost cutting also mean that the prospect of keeping the car longer than 3 years, is quite daunting in case anything expensive decides to 'let go'. Not convinced that the optional extended warranty is particularly comprehensive, does anyone have any experience of claiming on it?
So, all of this begs the question of what will the Golf eventually be replaced with? Well currently I am erring towards a Korean built car (possibly a move down to the new i20n). At least they seem to have solid build and decent aftersales service - which is something that perhaps VW could learn a thing or 2 from.
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So, all of this begs the question of what will the Golf eventually be replaced with? Well currently I am erring towards a Korean built car (possibly a move down to the new i20n). At least they seem to have solid build and decent aftersales service - which is something that perhaps VW could learn a thing or 2 from.
Sounds like our experiences, and how we consider them, are similar...
I am already looking at the BMW M135i... But I am in too much -ve equity at the moment with the Golf to be considering that seriously... But, hypothetically, if I could get out of the Golf and into the BMW by the end of the year (before any additional Brexit tariffs there may be come into play), I would most probably do so...
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Im not in possition to consider new car at the moment after investing so much ( for me) into this one.
Dealer will have a go in September when service is due to rectify some noises. If not better I'll have to live with it for few years this time because Im not stripping half of my car trim to find the source.
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I had the opportunity to drive an M135i BMW the other day and I was shocked as to how much more refined and "quiet" it seemed over the GTI...
I don't mean engine noises... But in more how much better the BMW seemed to isolate the driver from road noise and other unwanted noises (and minus the "extra" noises my car has)...
My GTI felt genuinely "crashy" and less refined immediately afterwards... Think of going over a cattle grid, how some cars give you more of a vibration and noise than others, how they feel less refined, well my GTI felt like the unrefined one of the two... This genuinely surprised me as "unrefined" is not something I would usually associate with a GTI...
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I had the opportunity to drive an M135i BMW the other day and I was shocked as to how much more refined and "quiet" it seemed over the GTI...
I don't mean engine noises... But in more how much better the BMW seemed to isolate the driver from road noise and other unwanted noises (and minus the "extra" noises my car has)...
My GTI felt genuinely "crashy" and less refined immediately afterwards... Think of going over a cattle grid, how some cars give you more of a vibration and noise than others, how they feel less refined, well my GTI felt like the unrefined one of the two... This genuinely surprised me as "unrefined" is not something I would usually associate with a GTI...
Are you referring to ride when you describe it as “ crashy”? This is not my experience- one of the first things I noticed when I bought my gti was how good the ride was for a car that was so composed in fast bends.
Secondly, some would argue that the gti is too refined for a car of this type-why else would they enhance the cabin noise artificially?
Road noise may be more of an issue, certainly on the factory fit bridgestones.
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"Road noise may be more of an issue, certainly on the factory fit bridgestones"
different tyres make very little difference to road noise. I had the much raved about Michelin PS4 on my last GTi and they weren't any quieter than the bridgestones that came with the car.
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I’ll be swapping mine to PS4s by the end of the summer, I’m expecting big things!
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different tyres make very little difference to road noise.
Sorry Chris, I'd have to disagree with you there.
I know for example back in 2004, I bought a brand new Toyota Avensis T-Spirit with the 17" Alloy wheels (don't judge me :D ). As standard it came from the factory on Dunlop Sportmaxx tyres and they were truly awful. Great grip and road holding, but horrendous noise (I mean almost embarrassing with passengers in the car). I complained to Toyota UK, and after several visits to the dealers, the tyres were all replaced with Goodyear ones, and the difference was indescribable. Same car, same roads, same wheels, just different tyres and it was like having a completely different car.
So maybe the tyres that VW selects for the Golfs may not make such a big difference, but my god, they did on that Avensis, it went from a car I was going to sell as I couldn't live with it, to a car I kept for 3 years.
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So, I have been living with my 19 reg GTI Performance for some 14 months now. Whilst I am impressed with the dynamics of the car, and also the amount of equipment it came with, I am finding that the number of rattles, squeaks and creaks the car has is a significant negative point to ownership…
The pano roof creaks and squeaks like an old wooden ship, and the GummiPfleger stick only seems to cure it for a few weeks at a time… The passenger seat back vibrated persistently with engine load (was made better by workshop but still does it occasionally)… The drivers seat creaks very annoyingly from the base at the rear from lateral load when cornering (originally fixed one with a new base, but was back again quickly, if ever fixed in first place)… The passenger b-piller has a rattle in it (loose cable to speaker) that was only partially fixed… There’s another one mid front somewhere… and some from the back… The front consol area makes noises if my leg rests on it... There’s also something from the drivers b pillar area…
Some unwanted noises are better/worse in warmer weather and vise versa...
Honestly, this is way too much to expect from anew car with less than 9,000 miles under the belt… I had three BMW 3 series before the Golf and none of those has any noises like this...
Do other owners have similar issues..?
I can do you a great deal on a res delete, that should cure all other noises immediately! :grin:
In all serious, doesn't sound like normal to have all those rattles.
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.........Secondly, some would argue that the gti is too refined for a car of this type-why else would they enhance the cabin noise artificially?..............
Probably more to do with most manufacturers pumping in artificial engine noise and not wanting to fall behind with everyone else.
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Are you referring to ride when you describe it as “ crashy”? This is not my experience- one of the first things I noticed when I bought my gti was how good the ride was for a car that was so composed in fast bends.
Secondly, some would argue that the gti is too refined for a car of this type-why else would they enhance the cabin noise artificially?
Road noise may be more of an issue, certainly on the factory fit bridgestones.
No, not the ride per se (if, by ride, you mean handling and composure of the suspension etc), but the overall experience as to how the car’s transit along the road is transmitted into the cabin as unwanted noise…
So, the best I can describe how I am using the term “crashy” is that when going over rough surfaces, pot holes, railway crossings, cattle grids etc, much more of the immediate noise is transmitted into the cabin in a jarring way.. Hitting a nasty pothole is a sharp bang, not a more muted thud… running across a cattle grid has a harsher sound…
I am not saying it has jiggly handling or anything like that (my old 3-series on run-on-flat tyres was more jiggly, for instance)…
It is, in essence, refinement that I am referring to… It is possible to present a taught and focussed ride/drive without the crashiness… I have been fortunate to drive quite a few different performance cars over my various car ownerships and many have handled and ride better than a GTI without necessarily being as “unrefined”…
Cabin noise, to me, has two elements, those things that enhance your experience of the drive and those that don’t… I just figured, for me, the BMW had a better ratio between the two than I felt my GTI has…
I am on 19’ wheels with Pirelli factory fit tyres, by the way… and I use the “individual” setting to minimise the “enhanced” sound…
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I'd agree that the M135i is much quieter - indeed most reviews talk about how it has very little road noise.
That's not to say its silent like a library - you hear the engine and the exhaust, you just don't hear suspension noise, tyre noise and wind noise.
Very noticeable when you get back into your Mk7.x Golf after....
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I'd agree that the M135i is much quieter - indeed most reviews talk about how it has very little road noise.
That's not to say its silent like a library - you hear the engine and the exhaust, you just don't hear suspension noise, tyre noise and wind noise.
Very noticeable when you get back into your Mk7.x Golf after....
Right.. This, exactly, was my experience.. It's like BMW have tuned out more of the unwanted noises and left in some of the more wanted ones... The BMW is not quiet in an unwanted way...
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I can do you a great deal on a res delete, that should cure all other noises immediately! :grin:
In all serious, doesn't sound like normal to have all those rattles.
Res delete..?
No, I have never had a car with so many different rattles etc... and what is worrying me is that there are more now than there were to start with and I have only done 8800 miles or so....
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.........Secondly, some would argue that the gti is too refined for a car of this type-why else would they enhance the cabin noise artificially?..............
Probably more to do with most manufacturers pumping in artificial engine noise and not wanting to fall behind with everyone else.
It’s a crap sound, seems universally disliked. I assume vw will keep it for the mk8 Gti?
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@DaveA. Your thread shows that no car can be “ all things to all men”.
It’s not refined enough for some, not raw and thrilling enough for others.
As for the rattles, I think you’ve got pretty unlucky with the quality of your car
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If I ever my my Mk7.5 with the radio off (not VERY likely) it does drive me mad I have to say. The noise from the rear is horrible and any passengers in the rear struggle to have a conversation with me.
I can't hear either with Radio 4 on or with Motorhead's No Sleep Til Hammersmith (one of my fave pieces of classical music)...
Fixes both annoying passengers and Golf noise.
If I filled the boot with pillows, maybe it was quieter?
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You know, I'm genuinely not seeing that ?
The only thing I can attribute that to is that a) I'm not dialled into the noise as some people here or b) that I have a "false" floor under the main boot floor that sits on top of the spare wheel / Sub-woofer with a heavy carpet insert in it (to act as a shelf for storing items under the main floor panel)? But overall, I don't find road noise, wind noise etc at all objectionable on the GTI (and never did on the GTD's either, although there were a little louder). I certainly for 100% don't have a myriad of rattle or squeaks in the car, from that perspective it's commendably quiet.
Also, don't always believe the grass is greener on the other side as BMW are far from perfect either. Whilst I would generally agree that the interior fit and finish of the 1 series is better than that of the MK7.5, it's not leaps and bounds (at least that's my personal impression) and indeed I thought some of the lower down plastics were actually of a worse quality than VW. Where the 1 series scores over the Golf is that it's a brand new platform with the latest hardware and software, whereas the Golf 7 is essentially an 8 year old design.
I've been over on the 1 series forums and there are for sure a lot of ex GTI and R owners making the switch across to the M series, but hand on heart, is that really because it's perceived as a better quality product, and mainly the fact that owners that were perhaps looking for a natural upgrade to the MK8 GTI and R, are just not feeling the MK8 Golf and are somewhat disappointed and underwhelmed with what they see ? I think the M135i is perhaps what MK7.5 and 7 owners where looking for in a MK8 Golf maybe ?I've also been on the 3 series forum as well (another consideration for me), and whilst it's obviously a different class of car to a Golf, they are not without their own problems, and it seems BMW's online software updates can easily brick your car (and have done to a few members).
One thing I am pretty certain about is that when it comes time to part with my GTI (whenever that is), i'm 90% sure that a MK8 won't be a consideration for me as I just don't like what I see. I'm also not feeling the Mercedes Benz A class (have loads of them at work), so by the process of elimination, BMW sort of rises above the other choices, as for me, it's the most Golf like (I know, a compliment and an insult all in one).
For me, the 1 series caters very well for existing and perspective R owners, as they are very similar cars in many ways (i.e size, AWD, power, performance etc), but but us GTI owners, there's a gaping hole in the engine line up with the 1 series. You either have a choice in petrol of a 3 cylinder 140hp model (118i) or the full fat M135i (at nearly £38k before options) and nothing in-between. There's definitely a market I think for a FWD 120i with a de-tuned M135i engine producing 220-250ps for example. Add on metallic and adaptive cruise control pack and you are precariously close to £40k and the dreaded luxury tax bracket.
The second issue for me as a private buyer is depreciation. I've looked at a March 2020 M135i with options to a list of £43.5k with 5500 miles, being sold for £31,500 (before negotiations) that's nearly a 28% devaluation in 5 months. Similarly I've seen a beautiful 320i M-Sport with all the toys (list £44,800), going for £30,750 - that's over 31% depreciation in just 7 months (Feb 2020 car). So whilst I do think a BMW will most certainly be in my future as my next car (when ever that is), it won't be new but a few months old. Sure I might not get the exact spec I'd ideally want, but you save a bucket load of money. Company car drivers obviously have different considerations and most likely wouldn't be considering a M135i anyway but probably a 330e ?
One thing is pretty much for certain though, I think BMW and Merc, will be picking up a lot of hot Golf owners over the next year or so. Of course these are purely my views and expect everyone else to disagree with me :D :D
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If I ever my my Mk7.5 with the radio off (not VERY likely) it does drive me mad I have to say. The noise from the rear is horrible and any passengers in the rear struggle to have a conversation with me.
I can't hear either with Radio 4 on or with Motorhead's No Sleep Til Hammersmith (one of my fave pieces of classical music)...
Fixes both annoying passengers and Golf noise.
If I filled the boot with pillows, maybe it was quieter?
Only know one tune. The Young Ones. Bristol Temple Meads. Classic scene.
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Only know one tune. The Young Ones. Bristol Temple Meads. Classic scene.
The title to which I refer is a vintage live performance from the well renowned venue, the Hammy-O.
Exquisite recording, every subtle note captured, a musical masterpiece to soothe your soul during heavy traffic.
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Only know one tune. The Young Ones. Bristol Temple Meads. Classic scene.
The title to which I refer is a vintage live performance from the well renowned venue, the Hammy-O.
Exquisite recording, every subtle note captured, a musical masterpiece to soothe your soul during heavy traffic.
It won't soothe my soul during heavy traffic as my copy is on vinyl :laugh:
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@DaveA. Your thread shows that no car can be “ all things to all men”.
It’s not refined enough for some, not raw and thrilling enough for others.
As for the rattles, I think you’ve got pretty unlucky with the quality of your car
Of course, folk are always going to think about different things in different ways...
I think maybe refinement was not the right term for me to use to describe the specific way in which the GTI is, in my experience, lacking when you compare to the experience in a car like the BMW... I know, from my past cars, that it is absolutely possible to make a car that has about as much RAW energy and performance as you are ever likely to need/want... A car that makes your spine tingle and is as connected as you could ever wish for... yet it still rode over a cattle grid with less of a jarring impact noise-wise than my GTI...
I stand by my assessment of my GTI in terms of a lack of refinement in how much unwanted noise is transmitted to the driver... As far as the rattles and stuff, yeah, I also think I got unlucky with my car and I don't think mine (in terms of the number of noise issues) is typical of the GTI experience more widely...
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You know, I'm genuinely not seeing that ?
The only thing I can attribute that to is that a) I'm not dialled into the noise as some people here or b) that I have a "false" floor under the main boot floor that sits on top of the spare wheel / Sub-woofer with a heavy carpet insert in it (to act as a shelf for storing items under the main floor panel)? But overall, I don't find road noise, wind noise etc at all objectionable on the GTI (and never did on the GTD's either, although there were a little louder). I certainly for 100% don't have a myriad of rattle or squeaks in the car, from that perspective it's commendably quiet.
Also, don't always believe the grass is greener on the other side as BMW are far from perfect either. Whilst I would generally agree that the interior fit and finish of the 1 series is better than that of the MK7.5, it's not leaps and bounds (at least that's my personal impression) and indeed I thought some of the lower down plastics were actually of a worse quality than VW. Where the 1 series scores over the Golf is that it's a brand new platform with the latest hardware and software, whereas the Golf 7 is essentially an 8 year old design.
I've been over on the 1 series forums and there are for sure a lot of ex GTI and R owners making the switch across to the M series, but hand on heart, is that really because it's perceived as a better quality product, and mainly the fact that owners that were perhaps looking for a natural upgrade to the MK8 GTI and R, are just not feeling the MK8 Golf and are somewhat disappointed and underwhelmed with what they see ? I think the M135i is perhaps what MK7.5 and 7 owners where looking for in a MK8 Golf maybe ?I've also been on the 3 series forum as well (another consideration for me), and whilst it's obviously a different class of car to a Golf, they are not without their own problems, and it seems BMW's online software updates can easily brick your car (and have done to a few members).
One thing I am pretty certain about is that when it comes time to part with my GTI (whenever that is), i'm 90% sure that a MK8 won't be a consideration for me as I just don't like what I see. I'm also not feeling the Mercedes Benz A class (have loads of them at work), so by the process of elimination, BMW sort of rises above the other choices, as for me, it's the most Golf like (I know, a compliment and an insult all in one).
For me, the 1 series caters very well for existing and perspective R owners, as they are very similar cars in many ways (i.e size, AWD, power, performance etc), but but us GTI owners, there's a gaping hole in the engine line up with the 1 series. You either have a choice in petrol of a 3 cylinder 140hp model (118i) or the full fat M135i (at nearly £38k before options) and nothing in-between. There's definitely a market I think for a FWD 120i with a de-tuned M135i engine producing 220-250ps for example. Add on metallic and adaptive cruise control pack and you are precariously close to £40k and the dreaded luxury tax bracket.
The second issue for me as a private buyer is depreciation. I've looked at a March 2020 M135i with options to a list of £43.5k with 5500 miles, being sold for £31,500 (before negotiations) that's nearly a 28% devaluation in 5 months. Similarly I've seen a beautiful 320i M-Sport with all the toys (list £44,800), going for £30,750 - that's over 31% depreciation in just 7 months (Feb 2020 car). So whilst I do think a BMW will most certainly be in my future as my next car (when ever that is), it won't be new but a few months old. Sure I might not get the exact spec I'd ideally want, but you save a bucket load of money. Company car drivers obviously have different considerations and most likely wouldn't be considering a M135i anyway but probably a 330e ?
One thing is pretty much for certain though, I think BMW and Merc, will be picking up a lot of hot Golf owners over the next year or so. Of course these are purely my views and expect everyone else to disagree with me :D :D
I (also) readily accept that my perception is just that, mine, and that others may feel differently... I had not really put my finger on much of what I have been saying about the GTI until I drove the BMW then got back into mine and I started to notice how differently (let's say) the VW was in allowing certain noise back into the car... To be honest, I have been more preoccupied with the individual rattles and stuff that I had not really noticed the more general thing...
Also, I do not dislike the GTI and I am genuinely not trying to bash it... It is a very popular, very successful car and tons of folk are extremely happy with their car...
Your point about the engine gap in the BMW line up is well made... In the previous model, there was a 125i that was precisely the spot you were looking to fill and, yes, like GTI vrs R, it sat about £5k under the (then) 140i... What worked against its sales was that the 140 was mostly attracting such huge discounts that you could generally buy the 140 cheaper than the 125i...
As for depreciation... I would be lucky to get £22k for my car now... a car that was listed about £37,500 15 months ago... So I think that initial hit is common to many...
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Your point about the engine gap in the BMW line up is well made... In the previous model, there was a 125i that was precisely the spot you were looking to fill and, yes, like GTI vrs R, it sat about £5k under the (then) 140i... What worked against its sales was that the 140 was mostly attracting such huge discounts that you could generally buy the 140 cheaper than the 125i...
I said the same - they lack a 240ps FWD "Golf GTI" but the problem is that the current 1 series is a Mini/BMW UKL2 platform and they just haven't made an engine/transmission of that type for it.
BMW like everyone else are mad keen on part reuse and removing options to keep supply costs down.
Even if they detuned the engine by 60 bhp, they don't have a FWD transmission capable of handling that much power.
Pay for one of those and the cost would be what?
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Just reading through this thread, I%u2019ve literally just bought a 2014 GTI and I%u2019d describe it as refined. Ok it%u2019s not as boring as a BMW but it%u2019s certainly just about on the right side to remain a hot hatch. I%u2019ve come from French hot batches and cars in general, setting aside my fleeting romances with Lotus and Honda. I think it%u2019s fair to say that you shouldn%u2019t get rattles from a 20-30k car, my Megane RS%u2019s were excellently built and no rattles even at 50k. Saying that my current golf only has about two but they%u2019re not noticeable really and the overall cabin is quieter than French cars due to the extensive sound deadening. Overall I agree with the OP that at this price point you shouldn%u2019t have to succumb to poor build quality, after all aren%u2019t German cars supposed to the best in terms of build and reliability? On a side note I was driving a Clio 172 Cup before I bought the Golf so the GTI is like a rolls Royce in comparison! Not quite as exciting to drive though! :D
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Try sitting in the back..
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For some reason every apostrophe I’ve typed has as error :shocked:
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For some reason every apostrophe I’ve typed has as error :shocked:
But strangely is OK in this post... hmmm... gremlins afoot, methinks.... 😂
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I thought they were swear words at first.
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different tyres make very little difference to road noise.
Sorry Chris, I'd have to disagree with you there.
I know for example back in 2004, I bought a brand new Toyota Avensis T-Spirit with the 17" Alloy wheels (don't judge me :D ). As standard it came from the factory on Dunlop Sportmaxx tyres and they were truly awful. Great grip and road holding, but horrendous noise (I mean almost embarrassing with passengers in the car). I complained to Toyota UK, and after several visits to the dealers, the tyres were all replaced with Goodyear ones, and the difference was indescribable. Same car, same roads, same wheels, just different tyres and it was like having a completely different car.
So maybe the tyres that VW selects for the Golfs may not make such a big difference, but my god, they did on that Avensis, it went from a car I was going to sell as I couldn't live with it, to a car I kept for 3 years.
just talking about the golf here Andrew.
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Referring back to DaveA’s and sootchucker’s points amongst others, the value drops are common to all of the segment now. My TCR books at sub £26k at 15 months old and would have retailed at a whisker under £40k with options. I reckon in part ex I’d be lucky to see £25k.
These things drop like stones for a year or two which makes buying new a mugs game unless you’re pretty wealthy, have a decent company car scheme or plan keeping the car for 4 years plus.
For the purpose of this thread as you can’t do a GTI PCP quote right now I just did a 135i finance quote.
24 months on a car specced to a fag paper under £40k (our new favourite cut off point when it doesn’t see like a couple years ago we were aghast at spending over £30k on a Golf sized car) and the GFV is just over £20k using 8k miles PA.
A £20k drop.
But the industry doesn’t want us to look at figures in that way anymore, they just want to know “how much an you afford a month”
Hell, you could buy a second hand pre-facelift R, stage 2 it, blow the engine showing off to your mates and still have spent less than £20k after rebuilding it!! The latter would probably be much more fun but I’m old and have no mates so... :laugh:
As for the M135i itself, I remember posting up about my test drive in a launch demo car last year and saying how Golf like like it felt but also how refined it felt compared to my Ed40 (non DCC on both), but to be honest I reckon a 7.5R wouldn’t be that far off the BMW in refinement, but I can’t say for sure.
The GTI doesn’t have the prop-shaft to stiffen the shell and has very thin panels which transmit certain noises unlike previous generation Golfs (mk1 and mk3 aside) and I wonder if the FWD 1 series is as refined at the strut brace equipped M135i.
To me a Golf GTI is incredibly refined for the type of car it is but there are certain irregularities it just can’t cope with. Maybe more factory development time on the Milton Keynes roads near VW UK HQ would be a good thing instead of endless laps around the Nurburgring trying to shave a few tenths of seconds per lap. Still, it’s a nice job for someone!
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@Exonian, regarding your point on thin panels, worth noting that the gti has got bigger with every generation but you have to go back to the mk3 for a lighter golf.
Previous golfs may have been considered higher quality but they were utterly dull ( mk3 and 4)
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Can’t disagree on the dullness of the mk3 and mk4, I owned examples of both! :grin:
I don’t mind the thin panels of the mk7 either, I’ve owned enough of them to prove my acceptance. I’m just referring to the reason some people are picking up noise transmission.
Personally I have the radio on and aircon blower and don’t notice the noises or don’t particularly care. I’m more tuned to the nuances of the suspension refinement and handling though having spent/wasted much of my adult life playing about with engine and chassis tuning.
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Yes, it’s an interesting point you make.
I‘m happy for a little less quality for a better driving experience, but then I grew up hankering for fast Peugeots! ( and i had little interest in the fast golfs of the day)
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I grew up in the ‘80’s Yusee when every day was like an episode from Stranger Things!
I had a Peugeot 205 1.9 after heavily modifying a late mk1 Golf GTI and the build quality was night and day difference between them, reliability of both was poor so on a par!
My 205 was pretty low mileage and only a couple years old but I had to drive with my left elbow pressed into the passenger seat to stop it constantly squeaking, the drop links failed time and again and it stalled at low speed every time I wanted to turn at a junction so it was no surprise I moved to a mk2 Golf GTI and embraced the dull ambience of a reliable well built car!!
The 205 was huge fun though.
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I grew up in the ‘80’s Yusee when every day was like an episode from Stranger Things!
I had a Peugeot 205 1.9 after heavily modifying a late mk1 Golf GTI and the build quality was night and day difference between them, reliability of both was poor so on a par!
My 205 was pretty low mileage and only a couple years old but I had to drive with my left elbow pressed into the passenger seat to stop it constantly squeaking, the drop links failed time and again and it stalled at low speed every time I wanted to turn at a junction so it was no surprise I moved to a mk2 Golf GTI and embraced the dull ambience of a reliable well built car!!
The 205 was huge fun though.
That sounds pretty good. I had a 1985 Alfa Sprint..........................
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That sounds pretty good. I had a 1985 Alfa Sprint..........................
I really liked Alfa’s from that era but never owned one. The Alfa Spirit was a stylish car though IMO. I think I was worried that if I bought an Alfa, there might not be much of it left after 3-4 years of British weather.
I knew someone who had an Alfa Sud and it suffered from rust in some really unexpected places - not just the usual places where many 1970’s/1980’s cars rusted (wheel arch edges, sills, front wings and door bottoms). but the roof and C pillars as well!
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That sounds pretty good. I had a 1985 Alfa Sprint..........................
I really liked Alfa’s from that era but never owned one. The Alfa Spirit was a stylish car though IMO. I think I was worried that if I bought an Alfa, there might not be much of it left after 3-4 years of British weather.
I knew someone who had an Alfa Sud and it suffered from rust in some really unexpected places - not just the usual places where many 1970’s/1980’s cars rusted (wheel arch edges, sills, front wings and door bottoms). but the roof and C pillars as well!
To be perfectly honest, stuff broke far quicker than it could rust although that didn't stop me having regular nightmares of getting up in the morning to find it had dissolved! Dynamically though it was a fantastic car, great handling, brilliant engine and the rasp was a treat. The onboard front disc brakes though were an unwelcome quirk, they needed adjusting regularly with a feeler guage as they also acted as the handbrake but getting to them was a right royal pita.
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I grew up in the ‘80’s Yusee when every day was like an episode from Stranger Things!
I had a Peugeot 205 1.9 after heavily modifying a late mk1 Golf GTI and the build quality was night and day difference between them, reliability of both was poor so on a par!
My 205 was pretty low mileage and only a couple years old but I had to drive with my left elbow pressed into the passenger seat to stop it constantly squeaking, the drop links failed time and again and it stalled at low speed every time I wanted to turn at a junction so it was no surprise I moved to a mk2 Golf GTI and embraced the dull ambience of a reliable well built car!!
The 205 was huge fun though.
With my current 205, I had a drop link done soon after buying it and it occasionally does exactly as you describe- stalls at low speed on turning. If you tap the dash, it feels like the type of plastic my kids' toys are made of.
But.. I wouldn't hesitate to take this car to Europe, I have complete confidence in its reliability.
In actual fact we have just returned from a tour of France and Germany in the family Alhambra, a trip that started with sudden battery failure that required an emergency detour to Halfords Folkestone.
The other thing about the 205- it's still massive fun. Absolutely love driving it. I only wish they still made them- I'd buy a new one.
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That sounds pretty good. I had a 1985 Alfa Sprint..........................
I really liked Alfa’s from that era but never owned one. The Alfa Spirit was a stylish car though IMO. I think I was worried that if I bought an Alfa, there might not be much of it left after 3-4 years of British weather.
I knew someone who had an Alfa Sud and it suffered from rust in some really unexpected places - not just the usual places where many 1970’s/1980’s cars rusted (wheel arch edges, sills, front wings and door bottoms). but the roof and C pillars as well!
To be perfectly honest, stuff broke far quicker than it could rust although that didn't stop me having regular nightmares of getting up in the morning to find it had dissolved! Dynamically though it was a fantastic car, great handling, brilliant engine and the rasp was a treat. The onboard front disc brakes though were an unwelcome quirk, they needed adjusting regularly with a feeler guage as they also acted as the handbrake but getting to them was a right royal pita.
I value dynamics over quality but draw the line at an Alfa Sud. I understand they rusted within weeks of delivery.
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........The second issue for me as a private buyer is depreciation. I've looked at a March 2020 M135i with options to a list of £43.5k with 5500 miles, being sold for £31,500 (before negotiations) that's nearly a 28% devaluation in 5 months. Similarly I've seen a beautiful 320i M-Sport with all the toys (list £44,800), going for £30,750 - that's over 31% depreciation in just 7 months (Feb 2020 car). So whilst I do think a BMW will most certainly be in my future as my next car (when ever that is), it won't be new but a few months old. Sure I might not get the exact spec I'd ideally want, but you save a bucket load of money. Company car drivers obviously have different considerations and most likely wouldn't be considering a M135i anyway but probably a 330e ?
I suppose that's to the extreme though saying a car listing at £43,500k has dropped to £31,500k when the vast majority of folk aren't going to be paying anywhere near that list price.
BMW have £1500 contribution and most dealers I've spoken to are willing to take up to £5000 off on top of that. So straight away that car has £6500 off list.
That seems to be the way most car manufacturers are going, list them high then allow a large discount although BMW and the higher end Audi's seem to be the worst.
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........The second issue for me as a private buyer is depreciation. I've looked at a March 2020 M135i with options to a list of £43.5k with 5500 miles, being sold for £31,500 (before negotiations) that's nearly a 28% devaluation in 5 months. Similarly I've seen a beautiful 320i M-Sport with all the toys (list £44,800), going for £30,750 - that's over 31% depreciation in just 7 months (Feb 2020 car). So whilst I do think a BMW will most certainly be in my future as my next car (when ever that is), it won't be new but a few months old. Sure I might not get the exact spec I'd ideally want, but you save a bucket load of money. Company car drivers obviously have different considerations and most likely wouldn't be considering a M135i anyway but probably a 330e ?
I suppose that's to the extreme though saying a car listing at £43,500k has dropped to £31,500k when the vast majority of folk aren't going to be paying anywhere near that list price.
BMW have £1500 contribution and most dealers I've spoken to are willing to take up to £5000 off on top of that. So straight away that car has £6500 off list.
That seems to be the way most car manufacturers are going, list them high then allow a large discount although BMW and the higher end Audi's seem to be the worst.
Despite the discounts increasing a little and deposit contributions being implemented, the depreciation cost of a performance Golf has mushroomed lately - clearly the market won't bear crazy high residuals to match the crazy high new prices. Prices below relate to 5 door manual Golfs and 3 year old values.
When the MK7 came out only 7 years ago, you could get a GTD for £23k after discount and with a GFV of about £15.3k and an expectation of £16.5-17k in p/x, the car was relatively cheap to PCP, with £2k loss per year in seoreciation plus PCP interest. It was a little worse for the GTI as it was dearer but had lower GFV. When the R came along, you could buy one for as little as £27.5k after discount with Prets and metallic paint and it had £18.5k GFV. P/x expectations were £19-20k if you went for Prets and a decent colour. Even so, expected depreciaion was no higher than £3k a year.
Fast forward to the TCR and it's got a GFV of about £13.5k, giving a p/x expectation of £15-16k so will have lost over £5k a year in depreciation over 3 years.
Of course we've seen steep initial depreciation profiles for BMWs and big German cars (like my recently acquired A4) in general for a while, but you've been able to get 20-25% off RRP for a new one to counter that.
If VW want to stop people chopping in their TCRs for 135s rather than MK8 GTIs, they're going to have tl offer dar deeper discounts than they're doing now.
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It just annoys me that list prices have been hiked up so far that (as per my previous post) you have to be pretty wealthy or have quite a decent company car allowance to pay near list price only to see the vale drop by 50% in two years on fairly desirable models.
It’s not like the discounts are immediately forthcoming to most customers when they walk through the showroom door kitted out in surgical masks.
You either have to be switched on enough to have scoured the internet brokers (and we can’t take it for granted that everyone does that) or a hardcore haggler (which most people aren’t).
I and many many others used to save hard to buy a German car knowing they’d be fairly robustly built with bullet proof strong residuals. It’s reasonably recently this massive discounting to hook everyone into PCP deals for dealer bonuses became prolific. Trouble being with the mass registering of brand new cars it means recent second hand cars which have low mileage and loads of warranty left suddenly become less attractive to buyers because of the much higher interest rates and less dealer financial incentives making them more expensive to buy than new cars and hence retained values are plummeting in relation to original list prices.
For a cash buyer with no part exchange a 9-12 month old hot hatch can seem fantastic value next to the list price of a new car.
I grabbed a price of a reasonably specced M135i on a PCP using the maximum deposit via TRL and the monthlies were under £80 a month! And no, there’s not a figure 1 missing off the front there, I’m pretty sure it wasn’t a typo. Plump for 24 months and you might not even need to service the thing.
No wonder part-ex prices are rubbish!
Save a deposit, pay bugger all a month, hand it back having saved another decent deposit... really, why bother actually owning something?
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It just annoys me that list prices have been hiked up so far that (as per my previous post) you have to be pretty wealthy or have quite a decent company car allowance to pay near list price only to see the vale drop by 50% in two years on fairly desirable models.
It’s not like the discounts are immediately forthcoming to most customers when they walk through the showroom door kitted out in surgical masks.
You either have to be switched on enough to have scoured the internet brokers (and we can’t take it for granted that everyone does that) or a hardcore haggler (which most people aren’t).
I and many many others used to save hard to buy a German car knowing they’d be fairly robustly built with bullet proof strong residuals. It’s reasonably recently this massive discounting to hook everyone into PCP deals for dealer bonuses became prolific. Trouble being with the mass registering of brand new cars it means recent second hand cars which have low mileage and loads of warranty left suddenly become less attractive to buyers because of the much higher interest rates and less dealer financial incentives making them more expensive to buy than new cars and hence retained values are plummeting in relation to original list prices.
For a cash buyer with no part exchange a 9-12 month old hot hatch can seem fantastic value next to the list price of a new car.
I grabbed a price of a reasonably specced M135i on a PCP using the maximum deposit via TRL and the monthlies were under £80 a month! And no, there’s not a figure 1 missing off the front there, I’m pretty sure it wasn’t a typo. Plump for 24 months and you might not even need to service the thing.
No wonder part-ex prices are rubbish!
Save a deposit, pay bugger all a month, hand it back having saved another decent deposit... really, why bother actually owning something?
It seems that the only people savvy enough not to pay list price or close to it for a new car are people on these forums. Only a few weeks ago on the Polo forum, someone had put a deposit down on a 1.0 R-line Polo, having ticked every options box, including the dealership "protection" products and was looking at £500 a month over 4 years, then complaining that he couldn't afford a GTI. There's some seriously naive people out there. I pointed him towards a Polo GTI+ at a broker price (which had 2/3 of his R-Line options as standard). and was going to cost him less than £300 a month.
If prices keep increasing as they are currently and residuals aren't following suit, buying new is going to become a mugs game, buying a year old one for 65-70% of RRP rather than a new one for 85% of RRP. In that respect, buying a VW is going to be like buying a Ford, Vauxhall or any French or Japanese marque - buy new at 25% off list or buy a year old for 35-40% off list then see a sensible depreciation profile thereafter for 2 or 3 years.
I do think that to a certain extent, (apart from having a shiny new car that no-one has farted on the seats - except the dockside workers who deliver it) people who buy new cars do so out of fear that if they buy used and keep it beyond the warranty they'll get a big bill out of warranty because reliability isn't great on modern electronics-laden cars. Even something seemingly small that wouldn't immobilise the car can easily cost £600 when it fails. The German marques are way behind general expectations here, almost everyone except the German marques now offer minimum 5 year warranties - even the hugely unreliable Alfa and Renault.
Whether their customers have as big a battle on their hands to get warranty work approved as plenty here do is something I don't know. Right now though, VW especially in the VAG group seem to be treating customers like sh!te when things go wrong and the dealerships are reluctant to even take on warranty work for fear it won't get authorised.
I do think that buying a new car from a franchised dealership is on its way out and we'll see a bigger switch to leasing new cars (HUKDs is full of posted lease deals) and then people buying 2 year old cars that the leasing market supplies in the next 10 years.
How big a deposit are you talking to do what you're doing with the Beemer, Exonian? What does it really cost you a month (average) for your deposit +£80 a month over your 24 or 36 months?
Audi also let you do what you're doing with the Beemer. You can put down 50% deposit (inclusive of discounts to get you to 50% of RRP) on a PCP (which effectively covers the depreciation) and your £80 a month is pretty much just covering interest on the other half of the car's worth at the end of the PCP. VW only allow 30% down. You save a lot of PCP interest in doing it that way.
Do you ever really "own" a car anyway? My 2 cars are bought outright and I save the depreciation each month to put back into savings for the next one, but no-one keeps a car forever, and even though they are mine, I probably won't keep either more than 3 years if my financial circumstances don't change. The only scenario I could see me buying a car and running it into the ground is if I was doing a crazy high annual mileage which would leave my 3 year old car pretty undesirable on the used market, so I would keep it until it's done in.
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I'd have to agree with a lot of what you have said there Monkeyhanger, especially with regards the German marques falling behind the rest of the industry with respect to the warranties. I think there's still some sort of German arrogance that exists with these manufacturers that people buy them on the respected perception of "German" quality. But where has that gone.
I work (and have done for 30 years) for the same multi billion euro global Engineering and Processing company that happens to be German, with most of our factories in Germany. In 30 years, I've witnessed a marked "relaxation" of build quality and more silly build mistakes creeping in. Gone are the days of German infallibility. Sure on a good day, they are still world class, but on a bad day, very average at best (and certainly no better than our competition - some of whom have their equipment made in the far east at up to 30% cheaper price).
It's about time the German car industry woke up and realised that buyers these day are not only more savvy, but now have the internet and things like YouTube with a myriad of reviews on new cars, which simply weren't available some years ago. The Golf 8 is a classic example. I have 3 friends, who like me have been died in the wool VW fanatics for many (many) years. All of them were looking forward to the release of the MK8 Golf to replace their MK6 and 2 MK7 Golfs (not performance models), and on speaking to them, all of them have 100% discounted the MK8 Golf on the basis of magazine and online video reviews they have watched. That's before they have ever walked into a showroom and seen the car in the metal.
Reputations can these days be won on lost based on social media and forums such as this, but it seems that VW at least (can't speak for BMW or Merc), seem to completely ignore the feedback they are receiving from such media streams and continue on their merry way.
As an aside, (and only because I was curious), this weekend I enquired with 3 BMW dealers for a price on a new BMW F20 3 Series 320i M-Sport, with a few toys and metallic to bring it to whispering distance of the magic £40k barrier (because I really like the new 3 series). The very best "offer" I had was £3.8k off (no finance contribution on the 3 series from BMW) so 9.5% discount. That worked out to £350 PM (over 36 months) with a whopping £11k deposit and an £18.5k GMFV. Thanks, but no thanks.
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^ You might want to look at Coast2coast cars. Last time I looked at BMW, they were by far the cheapest for broker prices. These car companies do need to be realistic in what people will pay - if a car is going to depreciate 35% in year 1, you need a 25% discount. That £11k deposit is equivalent to £305 a month over your 36 month term, making it a £655pm car ! :shocked:
VW seem to be pushing people towards 4 year PCPs to make the cars seem more reasonable - the least they should do is give a 4 year warranty to cover those people who bought a new car throughout the PCP term.
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Isn't it the same all over though?
People have demanded more sophisticated stuff and its here now but costs a fortune?
Mobile phones for example....
But like mobile phones, if you just want basic functionality, there are options still - its just that marketing has persuaded you that you need that BMW 330 or that Galaxy S20.
You can still buy a cheap phone or a cheap car, just not the ones they advertise heavily.
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Isn't it the same all over though?
People have demanded more sophisticated stuff and its here now but costs a fortune?
Mobile phones for example....
But like mobile phones, if you just want basic functionality, there are options still - its just that marketing has persuaded you that you need that BMW 330 or that Galaxy S20.
You can still buy a cheap phone or a cheap car, just not the ones they advertise heavily.
Is all that electronic gubbins really that expensive though? With the introduction of the virtual cockpit, there is the supposition that a simple TFT screen is much cheaper to produce than the dial instrument array. We have the MK8 Golf coming in with touch screen tech replacing all dials and buttons, in the name of cost saving.
In 11 years the cost (RRP) of a GTI has gone up almost 50%, but how many can say you're getting 50% more car? The standard spec has gone up a little, but not a lot.
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How big a deposit are you talking to do what you're doing with the Beemer, Exonian? What does it really cost you a month (average) for your deposit +£80 a month over your 24 or 36 months?
I hate paying interest on anything so purely asked for the deal I assumed (without doing any sums first) would pay the least interest over the term.
So maximum deposit would be around £12k or £13k cash plus or including(?) dealer and BMW discounts.
This was pricing the car to just under our new favourite figure of £40k (excluding first year car tax) over a 24 month contract.
I’m sure the figures can be juggled around with deposit amount and GFV versus interest paid over the term ranging between 24, 36 or 48 months if a bit of time was spent on the abacus.
Dealer and importer discounts amounted to just over £7k
I’m not sure that’s even the right way of looking at it anymore. I’m looking at it from a previous cash buyer perspective but once you’re in the PCP cycle it all goes out the window. If you’re paying PCP interest on car A but plan on buying car B after 24/36/48 months then you’ll be paying interest on that too, with a balloon payment on that too so maybe it’s better to just forget the headline figures and look solely at what you can afford a month... which is exactly what the industry wants us to do.
What does it matter anyway, it’s a never ending cycle and I guess many of us are the last of the generation brought up to only buy what you can afford to pay cash for where most of the under 40’s look at it purely as what they can afford a month. The world has moved on, whichever way you pay for it the buyer gets what he/she wants.
Interesting and valid point about 48 month PCP’s there MH.
It started with houses. I bought young but still missed out on the pre-boom early/mid ‘80’s prices most of my slightly colleagues bought at. They bought on 20 year mortgages and got 3 bed semis for less than I bought a flat for and I needed a 25 year mortgage as I was young and broke and had an unreliable mk1 GTI to fix!
My kids now have Help To Buy schemes and 40 year mortgages having been sensible and saved up money as thankfully they have no interest in cars.
That’s how the world has moved on.
The generation just in front of me bought a 3 bed semi as a first house and stayed there until it was paid off, the following generations don’t have that luxury and capitalism has cashed in on it big time.
So long as we get what we want then I guess it doesn’t really matter how it was financed, it’s just about balancing it out and trying not to pay over the odds during the never ending cycle.
Does the “it’s wasted money if it’s not in bricks and mortar” saying even still apply these days? With people paying mortgages into their 70’s nowadays I’m not so sure unless you’re one of the people in the formerly hugely popular BTL fashion with ever expanding portfolios.
Mobile phone contracts are also sneaking up to 36 months I’ve noticed. Reflecting price increases and the fact smart phones are no longer novelty items with sizeable jumps in useable performance hooking people in to change up frequently. Most people seem quite blasé about smart phones now so seem less interested in the latest phones because even four year old ones have useable functionality rather than just tech for tech’s sake. I’m still running wildly out of date phones feeling no inclination to upgrade until I get a car with a wireless charger. The young lads at work don’t seem that bothered about upgrades these days, they’re getting too expensive so their iPhone 8’s with smashed screens seem to soldier on!
Even an up! GTI costs about £17k now so I’m sure speccing an Audi A1 north of £30k is quite easy.
No wonder they’re on 48 month contracts.
The only way broker prices really save you money is if there is no part exchange vehicle. This is why PCP hand backs and leases are so convenient now with the way the market has positioned itself.
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Funny you should mention the A1. My wife's car is a 2016 VW Polo Blue GT DSG with lots of options. It was paid for cash at the time but is obviously now over 4 years old (albeit with only 14k miles on it !)
I mentioned to the wife about getting something newer but the only thing she liked was the new A1. Luckily it's available with the same 1.5 TSI 150ps engine as per Polo with ACT technology and the 7 speed DSG. When we specc'd a new A1 with that engine, DSG, metallic paint and just one option (to give her the auto lights, wipers, heated seats etc that she has on the Polo), the price was £29.5k
Bloody hell, when did a Polo size car break the £30k barrier (with a few more toys to exactly at least match here Polo, it ended up at £32,750. Gulp). She's decided to keep the Polo ;D
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Some interesting thoughts coming off the original thread, many of which I wholeheartedly agree with…
The “cost” of these vehicles certainly seems to have increased significantly over the last three or four years or so… An M135i would now cost broadly what my 340i M Sport did in 2016… and not simply the list prices, but the interest rates, GFV’s applied etc etc…
Let’s face it, the Golf market sector now is perhaps now more crowded than it ever has been… with, frankly, lots of alternatives and lots of different ways of slicing up your budget… Just about all the manufacturers have an offering at this size, together with the rise of brands like Kia, Hyundai and Mazda who also have different approaches to the offerings, but both offering lots of kit on their product at attractive prices…
There is no doubt in my mind, having driven both, that the M135 is more refined than my GTI… and that extra refinement does not detract from the driving experience…
I hear what some are saying about the “hot hatch” nature of a car but, well, to be honest, I never associated VW a lacking in refinement, nor would I expect it… If I wanted a stripped out noisy racer to zoom about in, I’d buy an old normally aspirated 2 litre rally car… I bought a VW because I wanted some of that “go” with refinement and day-to-day ability… and I always thought of the GTI as the sophisticated choice in the heated up hatchback market...
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There are quite a few articles out there about how UK new car prices have crept up.
Partly its to do with worsening Sterling exchange rates, partly its to do with increasing demand in other parts of the world meaning that strong UK demand not being a primary target for OEM's.
The market is changing, the idea that an Audi A3 is cheaper to pay each month for than a Vauxhall Astra is going away (probably even gone).
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There are quite a few articles out there about how UK new car prices have crept up.
Partly its to do with worsening Sterling exchange rates, partly its to do with increasing demand in other parts of the world meaning that strong UK demand not being a primary target for OEM's.
The market is changing, the idea that an Audi A3 is cheaper to pay each month for than a Vauxhall Astra is going away (probably even gone).
Yes, I feel it is reverting to something more like we used to have in those sorts of respects... Where the "premium" manufacturers feel they don't need to move so much product here (and it is interesting as I was reading how EU business has already replaced the volume of the UK market with other markets now - not just cars, in most things)... and where you feel grateful for £500 off your Gol/?A3/1 series etc... That's if they don't ignore you in the dealership first...
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I traded my 2016 320i just before lockdown for a 2 year old 230 bhp gti mk7.5. Thankfully I don't have the rattles you are experiencing Dave's but s some others have commented, I find the booming droning resonance from the rear of the car unacceptable.
There is a thread I started about how to make it quieter below and a further link from golfdave that may be of intersst to some reading this thread as a number have fitted a sub rear frame harmonic damper. Some have fitted and have found a 50% improvement. I had it fitted and it made a slight improvement. I will now attempt to fit some Sound deadening to make it more bearable.
I do regret getting rid of my bmw. As you say it was better at having the sounds you wanted - engine and exhaust.
There are aspects of the Golf that I find better than my base 320, lights, front pdc, seats, - but do wish it was much quieter
https://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=286456.0
https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/index.php?threads/how-to-retro-fit-the-rear-subframe-harmonic-damper-from-the-audi-a3-saloon-2013.369369/page-8
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I traded my 2016 320i just before lockdown for a 2 year old 230 bhp gti mk7.5. Thankfully I don't have the rattles you are experiencing Dave's but s some others have commented, I find the booming droning resonance from the rear of the car unacceptable.
There is a thread I started about how to make it quieter below and a further link from golfdave that may be of intersst to some reading this thread as a number have fitted a sub rear frame harmonic damper. Some have fitted and have found a 50% improvement. I had it fitted and it made a slight improvement. I will now attempt to fit some Sound deadening to make it more bearable.
I do regret getting rid of my bmw. As you say it was better at having the sounds you wanted - engine and exhaust.
There are aspects of the Golf that I find better than my base 320, lights, front pdc, seats, - but do wish it was much quieter
https://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=286456.0
https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/index.php?threads/how-to-retro-fit-the-rear-subframe-harmonic-damper-from-the-audi-a3-saloon-2013.369369/page-8
Your impressions coming into the Golf from the BMW echo my thoughts about the unwanted elements of noise that come into the car… especially, I find, over coarser and rougher road surfaces (which, unfortunately, there are a lot of up here in the North York Moors) which tend to exacerbate any rattles and speaks and whatnot, making it a double-whammy… I find myself gritting my teeth and hoping for the next smoother section…
… and whilst I do certainly appreciate some folk do not find that a detraction, I do… It is certainly not something you have to accept as a trade off for a more sporting intent in a hot hatch…
Thanks for the links… I shall have a read through (my apologies for not having already done so, I was largely absent during lockdown..)…
One thing I am wary of doing is dropping tyre pressures as, well, rightly or wrongly, I always feel that the recommended pressures should be the ones you run too… But, hmmm, have to say, 40 psi for mine does seem high… don’t think I have ever run a car at that in the past….
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Sorry to hear about your woes. I own an 18 plate GTI PP MK7.5, on about 18K miles (owned it since 3K) and don't / haven't experienced any rattling / creaks etc. Saying that the only 2 things I'm not happy with are:
- Not having DCC (ride on 19'' Pirelli's can be a little jarring - doesn't bother me so much but as a passenger you notice it)
- Cabin noise on crap roads is starting to get on my nerves :sad:
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Made a trip to our local 'tidy tip' today to dispose of some garden rubbish.
A stark reminder of how much more noise there is with rear seats down and no parcel shelf in place.
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Hi,
Regarding cabin noise on rough/course surfaces that has been mentioned in the post, I find the road noise unacceptable. I have been reading other threads and other Golf forums and I wonder whether I should change my tyres even though relatively new to make driving the car more bearable.
I have Michelin Pilot Sport 4 on 18" wheels and find them noisy on rough surfaces - can't hear the sat nav lady giving directions, for example. What tyres do you have and do you consider the road noise acceptable? I realise this is very subjective and depends what you are used to previously. However, I'd be most interested to hear from those that consider the car quiet, particularly those who thought the cabin noisy previously and have subsequently changed tyres and have found them quieter.
As a matter of interest, I was reading a review on Parkers website of a Golf GTE on 18" and he moved to Michelin Cross Climate + and they improved road noise for him. Elsewhere, I've read they have a hum at motorway speeds....
'one unanimous complaint I keep hearing from people who drive my Golf GTE long termer is how noisy the cabin is, even when driving in all-electric mode.
The tyres are the culprit, transmitting a dull rumble into the car even at low speed. VW fits performance-focussed Bridgestone Potenza rubber to the GTE, which fits the hot hatch side of this car’s personality, rather than the quietly efficient plug-in hybrid character.
What are these tyres like? (Michelin Cross Climate +)
The rating sticker claims they are more efficient than the Bridgestones and quieter to the tune of three decibels. They’re also about £30 a corner more expensive, so that’s a consideration.
At the risk of sounding dramatic, the GTE has been transformed by the new rubber. It’s so much quieter on the move. So much so that you can now hear various chirps and whistles from the turbo, and the noise of the regenerative braking system, plus the slight whistle of wind noise rippling off the door mirrors.'
Do any of you run the Dunlop Sport Maxx RT2 with 68dB rating or the Goodyear Efficient Grip with 69dB rating. I know these are external noise ratings hence why it is useful to know when fitted to this particular car.
Thanks
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I'd be a bit careful...
The tyre test consists of a test car driving past a microphone 7.5meters away at 50mph.
Sounds reasonable doesn't it?
But the test is about environmental impact, not passenger and to get better results some tread patterns specifically direct the sound into the wheel arch.... and thus into the car. Probably the lowest noise rated ones are the ones most likely to be playing that game.
Definitely do not pick a tyre for quieter internal noise based on those sticker values.
Continental have a special ContiSilent technology -
https://www.continental-tyres.co.uk/car/tyres/continental-tyre-technologies/contisilent
The Sport Contact 5 has it. Its still 72db on the sticker though for a 225/40/R18. SC5's are a good performance tyre, but wear quicker than some of the others.
Narrower tyres make less noise as do less sporty ones but I'd suggest neither are for a performance Golf!
Have you thought about putting sound deadening under the floor and into the wheel arches? Dynamat and Noico make products you could use.
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My car's a little noisier on Pilot Sport 4's on 17's, than it was on Continental Premium Contact 6's on 18's. I think I'll be going back to the Conti's once these wear out.