GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk7 => Topic started by: Sootchucker on 17 June 2020, 10:51
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I know this has been done before, but bear with me.
As you may have seen from my signature I own a MK7.5 GTI, and it is a car that I do love driving and still think it looks very nice and modern against it's peers. However, I was speaking to my brother (who's 2 years older than me) the other day, and he said as nice as the GTI was, at "my age" he just couldn't see himself driving round in a young person's "boy racer" car.
Now of course everyone is entitled to his (or her) own opinion, but it did get me thinking if I should be in a more "grown up" car, so started browsing at other potential cars that not only look nice, but perhaps suit my age better (so Range Rover Sport, Audi A5, Jaguar E-Pace, Merc C class, BMW 3 series etc.). Problem is, 1) they all cost a small fortune and 2) there's only the wife and I (and occasionally 2 dogs) in the car, so a Golf sized car has always suited.
It brought me round full circle thinking that for our current needs, the GTI is the right size, looks good, pretty economical for it's genre, it's very well equipped (especially with mine being highly spec'd) and most importantly is paid for, but perhaps does make this overweight, greying 57 year old perhaps look like he's trying to cling onto his youth.
Therefore do any more "mature" drivers on here ever think that, or is it a case of "sod it" I'll drive what I want for as long as I want ? Just interested in your views really. Can a performance Golf really transcend age and not look out of place for anyone, or are they really a young persons' car ?
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It's not something that's ever bothered me, I buy what I like and that I can afford. Maybe your brother is jealous? :laugh:
Also not sure that many boy racers could afford and insure a GTI?
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Lol, I just turned 44 and couldn't give a monkeys what anyone else thinks! I only managed to get a car I truly wanted back in 2017 when I got a Polo GTi, would have had a Golf then but was too expensive and have only really scraped it now because the new mk8 is or was coming out making them old hat. Personally I love the mk7.5's shape etc, yes it could be perceived as a bit boy racery/mid-life crisis'y but who cares, if you don't that's all that matters :-)
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This exact thought crossed my mind when buying my GTI for one brief second, but it’s one of the reasons I did go for the golf. It’s the one car in this class that doesn’t look like a boy racer toy. Yes you can add loads of OTT stick on parts, really loud exhausts etc if that’s your thing but as it is the GTI fits in anywhere, has plenty of power for everyday driving & plenty of potential for upgrades and has a decent amount of usable space. 90% of the time it’s just me in the car or else my better half so I don’t need loads of space either.
Plenty of people have stopped me & asked about the car or admired it since getting it and it’s not one group it a mix of everyone from people in their 20s, 30s, 40s (like myself) & older. It people who drive much more expensive exotic cars than mine to everyday car drivers. It would appear that the car and maybe the GTI badge in particular appeals to all ages & classes.
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I understand that view for a lot of hot hatches, which have become increasingly pre-modified in their appearance. But in standard trim the GTi is just a Golf to the uneducated, or those who just see it as a car. There aren’t many stuck on bits, shiny things, large spoilers, OTT lights, etc. It’s a Golf... mostly.
The other thing to consider is every type of car has a reputation in some people’s eyes. Taking your examples, a Range Rover or any other SUV is an unnecessarily large fashion symbol that will never go off road; an Audi A4 or C Class is a cocks company car drive by people in sh!t suits... I’m not saying these are my opinions, rather that people have opinions about everything.
The only opinion that matters is yours and how you feel. We all have an internal desired self-image and our own opinions, we can’t change other people’s.
This is in part an age thing too. The older you get the less you feel obliged to spend your money for everyone else’s benefit or acceptance. You also realise that for the most part, nobody cares.
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haha, interesting guys, but apart from pixelcellar, knowing your age would also help understanding your POV ;D ;D
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I'm kinda in the same boat (52) and I'm leasing while my search for the 'perfect car' goes on (it doesn't exist by the way...). I've concluded that a hatch is best suited to my needs (as opposed to a 3 series/A4 type) and when you start looking for a comfortable, premium, well equipped, relatively quick hatch, you inevitably end up with a 'hot' one.
I don't necessarily need 245 bhp (or thereabouts), but looking at petrol engines in the new hatches currently around there seems to be a gap between 150 bhp (3 or 4 cylinders) and 250+ bhp. Only the A Class has anything in between and I don't like it. If Audi produce the A3 with a 40 TFSI or BMW a 120i, I might be interested.
Back to age, there is white haired bloke at the end of the street (must be in 70s) who drives a TT and a bloke in his 60s in next street driving a GTI. Whatever takes your fancy, I say and don't worry about what anyone thinks.
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There are a lot of folk about who I describe as practicing to be old. You can adopt pipe and slippers stuff any time in your life, but it’s not a legal requirement. I love my GTI, which does everything we need on the practical side, with a bit of style and panache. My wife has a Fabia estate, which saves taking the GTI on the tip run and I also have a supercharged VX220, which I fettle, and me and my son track.
Oh, and I’m 70. 😉
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I’m within touching distance of the big five-o and to me the GTI is the one performance hatch that transcends all ages and classes.
It’s subtle, perhaps slightly less so in TCR guise but still not Type R shouty, but respectfully quick, quiet and cosseting and so perfectly suited to every use I want it for whether that’s my morning commute of < 2 miles or our frequent (at least they were…) 330 mile round trips to the east coast from the Midlands.
Having come from a C63 Coupe in to my first Mk 7 GTI, and prior to the C63 owning a Lexus ISF followed by a BMW M6, I’ve done the what are perceived as grown up toys bit and then, well, actually grown up and worked out that while 500 bhp is fun for about 0.01% of my driving time 8-16 mpg isn’t and the GTI is the perfect tool for the other 99.99%.
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I’m 56 and moved over from a Discovery 4 - thought on age and suitability never crossed my mind.
My BiL who is just over 60 is desperate for one and he’s a very respectable retired Police Inspector.
All my mates are my age and drive a variety of cars from Mercedes S class downwards and nobody has made a negative comment.
I guess if you were to lower it, put a stupid exhaust on it with wheels that rub the bodywork and drive around with the seat back horizontal he may have a point, but otherwise, I wouldn’t give a hoot.
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The subtlety of the Golf GTI has always meant it fits in with everyone, everywhere.
I'm 50, and have a Tig and Transporter Caravelle as main cars. Probably the sort of vehicles that I'm expected to have, but they are simply what I want to do the jobs I want them to. I've got no use for a new GTI, but if I did, would most probably have one... but un-modified.
I also have a Mk2 Golf GTI 16V, which could be seen as waaaaaaay more boy racerish that your Mk7's, but generally gets the approving nods from those who know.
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57 and on my 5th GTI a 6th on the cards soon. I always thought the Golf regardless of varient was classless and never regarding it as ageist..
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Would have been much more fun for us all to guess other forum member's ages....!!
I got my first Mk7.5 in 2017 when I was still 38 and had 3 years in GTIs. Obviously gone sensible and gone over to the other side now I'm in my 40s :grin:
Personally think the GTI suits all ages. I see loads of people on Instagram in their early 20s with GTIs (and heavily modded ones at that) so don't think it matters. A guy pulled up next to me a few weeks ago in Tesco in a 68 plate 245 GTI and we got chatting and he had loads of Golfs. He was in his mid-50s. Think the forums tend to attract drivers over 30 looking for advice etc rather than the younger ones.
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I’m retired and have no problem driving a Polo GTI - a car that IMO will certainly have more of a reputation of being a young person’s car than the Golf GTI has.
Many of the ‘hot hatch‘ forums have a ‘how old are owners?’ discussion thread, and the age profile of forum members driving performance hatches covers a very wide range. I sometimes visit the Fiesta ST forum (no, I’m not a member, and I won’t be buying a Fiesta ST!) and there are quite a few mature owners on that forum of a car that’s undoubtedly considered to be a boy racer car.
IMO age is just a number, and if you want to drive a performance hatch that’s your choice. It’s your money you spend to buy the car of your choice, so you shouldn’t be put off by other’s comments.
I may be changing my car sometime in the next 12 months and any new replacement will be another performance hatch - probably from the VW stable.
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That's really interesting guys, and to put things in perspective, despite what my bro' said, I have no intentions of getting rid of the GTI anytime soon. I think looking around is sometimes healthy as it makes you respect more what you already have.
TBH, asides from the shockingly high prices of the "other cars", and obviously the difference in size and shape, the one thing that crossed my mind what how little i'm actually missing out on. Sure there are some more modern bells and whistles on some newer cars and better connectivity, but overall, i was actually surprised at how little car engineering has actually moved on in the last 5-6 years (at least for internal combustion engine cars). Like I say, a lot I looked at have swisher toys, but nothing earth shattering (for the main). Coupled with that i still think the MK7.5 (and indeed the MK7), still looks very modern - don't even get me started on the MK8 :D :D
Also interesting to hear some ages as well. Some didn't surprise me, but some really did - thought I was the only old bugger on these forums !
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I'm 35 and bought the MK7 GTi new when I was 28. Ive driven nothing but GTI's since passing my test.I do all my experimenting with the "family car". As others have already said, I think the GTi transcends the age bracket a lot of cars suffer from. However, I must admit the power is lost on some of the "seasoned" owners who wouldnt notice if it actually had the smaller petrol VAG unit under the bonnet. :whistle:
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I’m 59 and after having two “sensible” GTDs I bought a 7.5 R in 2017. In lapiz blue, black prets and door mirrors - and 90% tints. A much younger neighbour calls it my “rappers stealth wagon” - probably because my music was too loud! I still love the pops and bangs and the idea of 310bhp. Life is too short to drive a Kia with a trilby and tissue box on the rear parcel shelf, think I’ll get an RS3 next year😀
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Life is too short to drive a Kia with a trilby and tissue box on the rear parcel shelf, think I’ll get an RS3 next year😀
Love it, age is but a number for sure, do what you want to do, sod other people's opinions as to whether you're too old/young for that!
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I think what you are seeing here is that with a Mk7/7.5 certainly up until recently, the crowd here were people who could afford a moderately pricey new/nearly new car.
Those tend to be a certain age.
If you looked at who owned a Mk5 or Mk6 GTI on here, you'd find a different demographic.
This has always been a pretty conservative (with a small c) forum in my opinion, when people have asked about "i want a very loud exhaust" or "has anyone fitted a whale tail spoiler?" they tended to be gently advised we aren't hooligans.... well, most of us aren't hooligans ;-)
For the record, I am fifty something ...I always thought i was old vs you lot, seems I'm just a yoof :laugh:
And maybe nobody is a boy racer with a GTD :grin: :grin: :grin:
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I'm 33, on my second GTI (they're very addictive...). Never had GTIs down as classic boy racer type hot hatches, in my opinion that would be Civic Type Rs, Saxo VTRs, 5GT Turbos (that's going back a bit!). I like the subtlety of how the GTI has evolved, absolutely the best all rounder I think. Have you seen the current gen Civic Type R?!
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I’m 52 and possibly look a massive tit getting in and out of a bright white GTI with black wheels, a black roof, a farty exhaust and a loud stereo. That probably proves I actually am a massive tit but - who cares?! :grin:
Doing a quick scan around my immediate neighbourhood which is predominantly of a more mature age group, aside from the standard boring econo-hatchbacks, SUV’s and an occasional late life crisis Porsche it seems to be mostly Mercedes barges with huge wheels or small Range Rovers and their ilk. All stereotypical stuff driven by stereotypical people.
Hell, I know plenty of guys who have had tattoo sleeves done in their 50’s for whatever strange reason loads of middle aged men seem to think they suddenly need to do this.
When I was in my 20’s most people in their 40’s seemed to look and act really old but times have changed.
I’ve owned hot hatches since my late teens and have no plans on changing that. In fact I’m now of the age where the kids are buggering off and I quite fancy something even smaller and rortier than a GTI because I don’t carry passengers and don’t drive on motorways anymore. I can’t wait until there are small affordable ballistically quick electric sports cars available just to try out the tech.
GTI’s look and drive in the sporty but respectable band. Always have done and hence their neutral image.
Sitting above the GTI’s are proper boy racer cars that look like mid range Diesels (Golf R, 135i, A35, S3 etc) and tend to be driven by more mature types at least as much as youngsters.
What even is the GTI’s image now? I genuinely have no idea, I buy them as they tick my boxes after a process of elimination.
The GTI hasn’t been boy racer top dog since 1992 when the VR6 kicked its arse, more so since the hyper hatches such as the A45 and RS3 broke cover.
Maybe an R or S3 would be more acceptable to your brother’s cliches views Sootchucker?
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Interesting Exonion.
TBH, my brother just isn't into cars that much (unlike me) which is why he drives a Renault engined Nissan Qashqai ;D ;D
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I’m 52 and possibly look a massive tit getting in and out of a bright white GTI with black wheels, a black roof, a farty exhaust and a loud stereo. That probably proves I actually am a massive tit but - who cares?! :grin:
Hmmm, that doesn't bode well for me then, similar car and age and yet I thought I looked great getting in and out of mine with my bespectacled balding head and Radio 4 on the stereo :rolleyes: :laugh:
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I am 54, hope I don't look like a tit, but unfortunately have massive tits (man boobs) :smiley: :smiley:
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TBH, my brother just isn't into cars that much (unlike me) which is why he drives a Renault engined Nissan Qashqai ;D ;D
Has he reverted back to driving with his front fog lights on again since we've had the odd drop of rain? Or is that just Juke drivers?
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I’m 47, incredibly handsome, and look absolutely fine driving my GTi.
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Im 46 (although most people say I look a fair bit younger, and I certainly don't act 46 :grin:) and couldn't car less what anyone thinks of me driving a GTI TCR, in fact its pretty subtle in comparison to my last car which was a sun yellow A35 AMG.
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As approaching early retirement it pains me that I may have to get rid of my 2018 one but if I didn’t have to. I would certainly not give a rats arse what anyone thinks about driving an iconic car no matter bout age. Enjoy it as long as you can
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I wouldn't really consider a Golf GTI a boy racers car in this day and age. Firstly the price (unless you are young and happen to have a reasonable job and live at home with the parents rent free). Someone has to buy them new in the first place and it took me until I was 35 before I could afford to do it. Early Mk7s are probably coming down to the price point now that I would have been been looking at with cars in my 20s and that's after being in production since 2013.
Secondly the fact that most younger people I know either aren't into cars or can't insure a GTI without a ridiculous premium.
The GTI is a lot more subtle nowadays and I would describe it more as a warm hatch than a hot hatch.... Well maybe not now I've remapped it :grin:. My choice was between a high spec GTI and a lower spec R, I never regretted the GTI apart from the one time it snowed since I owned it when the 4wd of the R might have been helpful.
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Hi Sootchucker. Deliberately avoiding numbers/ages; judging by the previous posts, quite good grammar and general sentiments, I think that many contributors are Generation X with a sprinkling of Baby Boomers thrown in. Regardless, you are in good company and clearly have good taste, demonstrated by your choice of car. Drive with confidence. I, myself am a Baby Boomer. Maybe there should be a new thread, ‘Older GITs in GTIs’ :grin:
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This is the most interesting/entertaining thread in a long while 😁
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Hi Sootchucker. Deliberately avoiding numbers/ages, judging by the previous posts, pretty good grammar and general sentiments, I think that many contributors are Generation X with a sprinkling of Baby Boomers thrown in. Regardless, you are in good company and clearly have good taste, demonstrated by your choice of car. Drive with confidence. :grin:
I think very few, if any people contributing to this thread will say the Golf GTI shouldn’t be driven by a more mature driver. The views about car ownership and choice on this forum will pretty much always be skewed in favour of the GTI, and understandably so; it is a Golf GTI forum after all, so that’s what you’d expect. However, IMO the GTI crosses all boundaries of driver age - and social standing too - in the same way that the original Mini did.
So to all you Golf GTI drivers whatever age you are; drive it and enjoy it. I’m sure you do anyway :smiley:.
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Im 42 and dont think age really matters with cars
However when I collected a mk6 GTi in 2009 aged 31, a 19 year described it as;
"The hot hatch your dad buys"
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It doesn't cross all boundaries anymore - plenty of pwople priced out of one now! It's the older drivers (35+) most likely able to afford one as they'll be more advanced in their careers and should be earning more.
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Hi to all, I would like to put my name forward as possibly the oldest golf driver on this forum, at the age of 75 , I own a 2010 mk6 golf gti and i find it possibly the best drivers car I've ever owned.in the pas,t i've owned an xr3....xr4i .....BMW 325 VERT....BMW M3 vert, my last three cars have been Golfs, and I only wish i'd found them sooner I could have saved a lot of money.I think my right foot is still in its twenty's. all my family and friends think I drive fast, it's not that I break the speed limit, I just don't waste any time getting there? Oh bye the bye if you are concerned about your age and the car you drive I would say that's a lack of confidence, kind regards and stay safe.
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It doesn't cross all boundaries anymore - plenty of pwople priced out of one now! It's the older drivers (35+) most likely able to afford one as they'll be more advanced in their careers and should be earning more.
Agree that if you’re considering only brand new or nearly new, then lots of people will be priced out, but not everyone buys new. There are mk7 Golf GTI’s on Auto Trader for around £11.5k.
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I'm 69 now and have had my Mk7.5 PP with DCC for three years now. I wanted a car that was civilised but could be driven quickly when I wanted to and it has filled those criteria admirably. I get on average about 35mpg with about 14000 miles from the front PS4s. I'll be keeping it until the insurance for an old git gets too high!
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I'm 34 and very much enjoy my TCR, thanks
Many of my peers are driving more 'normal' cars but paying about the same as me per month to finance it. I don't think age matters when you buy a car. It's up to the individual owner.
Not everyone likes a fast car, neither does everyone like a Golf GTI but it's a lot more acceptable than say, a Focus ST or an Astra VXR. Some people probably think I'm a boy racer or whatever but I couldn't care less.
I always found a Golf has a bit more class to it than some, though. Always seemed to garner a bit more respect driving a Golf, as I've had plenty of MK1s and MK2s in the past and noticed people seemed to really appreciate those cars. That may be more to do with them starting to become classic 10+ years ago when I had them.
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When I was younger we'd go to my best mates dad's house for the weekend, and guess what car he'd pick us up in... yep, a Golf! Ever since then the aim was to get one one day and I did just that at the age of 26/27.
I'm 29 now and the aim is a Porsche next but I may have to start selling my arse to afford one of them.
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I’m 52 and bought my first GTi in Oct last year. To be honest, I don’t know why I waited so long and the car is everything I expected and more, just a pleasure to drive It’s hard to see me going back to Honda/Mazda/Hyundai (not that there’s owt wrong with them) , I’d just miss the performance and ‘buzz’ of that GTi.
Cheers all
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I’m 69 and on my fourth GTI in 8 years.
Ticks every box for me.
I kid myself that I don’t look or drive my age but I do enjoy the slight surprise I encounter sometimes as I alight from my steed.
Almost without exception the comments/ looks I get are all about what a lovely car it is.
Seems to get universal approval and envy. More than cars twice the price.
My dear wife loves the car too. She tells me the only cars she likes are GTIs and 911s ( if any age).
She said “if you can’t afford a 911, get a GTI.
I trained her well :wink:
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This thread seems to have struck a chord with people ? :)
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This thread seems to have struck a chord with people ? :)
chord or old man's chords :grin: :grin:
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Ah.......no ageism here please!
One of the great features of GTI “club” and indeed this forum is the extremely broad band of members it attracts.
Long may it (and I) continue to thrive.
:rolleyes:
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Some years ago when I first test drove a Mk 7 shortly after it was launched (2013), the salesman said he went out the previous day with an older gentlemen (maybe early 70's). Expecting a rather sedate test drive, he had the shock of his life when the old boy tore it round the bends, using the gears properly and really going for a spirited drive!
Wasn't dangerous, but it was not what he was expecting at all!
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I am 59 and just got a mk7 my 3rd GTi :smiley: I see it as a car for all ages!
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I know this has been done before, but bear with me.
As you may have seen from my signature I own a MK7.5 GTI, and it is a car that I do love driving and still think it looks very nice and modern against it's peers. However, I was speaking to my brother (who's 2 years older than me) the other day, and he said as nice as the GTI was, at "my age" he just couldn't see himself driving round in a young person's "boy racer" car.
Now of course everyone is entitled to his (or her) own opinion, but it did get me thinking if I should be in a more "grown up" car, so started browsing at other potential cars that not only look nice, but perhaps suit my age better (so Range Rover Sport, Audi A5, Jaguar E-Pace, Merc C class, BMW 3 series etc.). Problem is, 1) they all cost a small fortune and 2) there's only the wife and I (and occasionally 2 dogs) in the car, so a Golf sized car has always suited.
It brought me round full circle thinking that for our current needs, the GTI is the right size, looks good, pretty economical for it's genre, it's very well equipped (especially with mine being highly spec'd) and most importantly is paid for, but perhaps does make this overweight, greying 57 year old perhaps look like he's trying to cling onto his youth.
Therefore do any more "mature" drivers on here ever think that, or is it a case of "sod it" I'll drive what I want for as long as I want ? Just interested in your views really. Can a performance Golf really transcend age and not look out of place for anyone, or are they really a young persons' car ?
I'm 42 and had my first GTI at 28. I wouldn't bother with your brother's opinion, my father in law who is 70 has driven GTIs since the MK1. Always black.
Love to hear what your brother thinks about a Honda Civic Type R.
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So, Sootchucker, does your brother do anything spontaneous or reckless, or is he just a boring old/young fart? :smiley:
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Great thread this and is something I always wondered!
A poll might have been good to get some numbers but feel like the over 50s are outnumbering everyone else so far!! :smiley:
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So, Sootchucker, does your brother do anything spontaneous or reckless, or is he just a boring old/young fart? :)
Nah, come to think if it, he's not really spontaneous at all - sensible I think is the word :D :D
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Great thread this and is something I always wondered!
A poll might have been good to get some numbers but feel like the over 50s are outnumbering everyone else so far!! :)
Your wish is my command Jim (above)
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Great thread this and is something I always wondered!
A poll might have been good to get some numbers but feel like the over 50s are outnumbering everyone else so far!! :)
Your wish is my command Jim (above)
Ha that was quick! I answered anyway even though technically I don't count now! :grin:
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Interesting Exonian.
TBH, my brother just isn't into cars that much (unlike me) which is why he drives a Renault engined Nissan Qashqai ;D ;D
My post was a bit tongue in cheek and I think your brother’s attitude is fairly standard for someone that’s not really interested in cars aside from them being practical means of transport.
I’m sure your brother has his own interests and passions that you might not share!
My point being really that the GTI looks more sporty than actually far more sporty cars such as the R and S3 etc. but it’s still respectable enough for us trainee oldies. :smiley:
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I’m 55 and never considered what other people think when I’m buying a car for me!!
The GTi is in my opinion a great all round car that does everything I want from a car. I have had three Mk7/7.5 (see sig) over the last six years but a change of circumstance in my work transport will mean I have to cut the cloth a little differently next time due to a near 100 mile commute each day. Prior to finding out about the van going back I fancied a change of view anyway from the drivers seat and was planning to get a BMW M135 Xdrive next as I am not convinced the MK8 is anything less than another facelift of the Mk7.5 with a different interior as a result of dieselgate and the budget being blown on the ID range of electric cars and a worry of even more cost cutting which I and many of you guys have noticed over the last six years of living with my Golfs
Now I can’t stomach the thought of having some boring rep mobile mile munching diesel as my only car so My plan now is to use the same budget as I would have done but split it between a weekend toy and a small diesel car. In my youth a few of my mates had Mini’s as their first cars I always planned to have one too but fell into a Ford Capri instead and then took a different route with cars ever since. Now with a change of circumstance is my chance to close the book on the missed opportunity of my youth and I am looking at a speccing up a new MINI Cooper S Sport Auto. Generous discounts mean I can load up the options to give me comparable amounts gadgets and tech to my current car and having had an extended test drive last weekend on my own which didn’t put me off but put a big smile on my face. Apart from a lack of space in the back which I don’t need nowadays as it’s only me and the wife and dog it pretty much ticked all the boxes for my weekender and will leave enough leftover for the commuter. That choice is pretty easy though as my work van is a 1.6 TDCI Ford Fiesta van that drives well (for a van) is quiet inside never put a foot wrong in just over 67K and returns 65 mpg all day long..enough said.
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I'm not sure you'll find the mini as fun as you think it might be.... its very much style over substance. My one tip for sure though with it is definitely look at all of the seat options, drive used ones with all of the seat options and find the one you like - the seats are notoriously uncomfortable!
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I'm not sure you'll find the mini as fun as you think it might be.... its very much style over substance. My one tip for sure though with it is definitely look at all of the seat options, drive used ones with all of the seat options and find the one you like - the seats are notoriously uncomfortable!
Agreed. The cloth/alcantara Cooper Works seats are instruments of torture so would be steering well clear of them and going for one of the Leather options. The one I had last week had the cross punch leather option and they were fine. I drove it over a varied number of roads from motorways to country lanes and A & B roads the ride comfort and road noise was fine and not too harsh which was a concern beforehand.if anything I think the 7speed Auto was even slicker than the Golf too 🤔
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Yes, the leather/semi leather seats are better than any of the cloth ones in a mini - I should have said that.
I find the ride too hard overall though - whether its a "sporty" one or just a Mini One. Even the highest sidewall tyres make little difference. Its like driving my previous Mk7 on 18's with DCC set to sport... all of the time.
Quickly becomes pretty wearing to me.
Its not even like you have something really to show for it either - the power isn't great and the handling nothing really like an old school mini, where it really did handle like a go-cart. Sure the old ones were uncomfortable too, no very powerful (even as a Cooper-S) but they did REALLY handle and you always felt like you were doing a hundred miles an hour.
Now, its just about the Mini brand, style, colour options, extra stickers....
In my house, we've had a few different ones between the family - both R series and F series.
There was someone else on here I saw the other day who had gone to a Cooper-S from a GTI.... have a look and see what he said about it.
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I'm not sure you'll find the mini as fun as you think it might be.... its very much style over substance. My one tip for sure though with it is definitely look at all of the seat options, drive used ones with all of the seat options and find the one you like - the seats are notoriously uncomfortable!
It's not just the seats Fred. The offset of the pedals to cram them in the right half of the drivers footwell is awful. We test-drove a mini for the wife and half an hour driving with the pedal position was awfully uncomfortable. The gearbox is in the way of where the pedal linkages should be, so they compromise.
Depreciation on minis is huge now too, so buy nearly new and save a fortune.
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I even looked at the new Clubman 300 thing - basically the M135i in a different dress.
Ugh. Not even a nice dress.
And depreciation was way higher than the M135i.
As I said before, you have to want a Mini to want one. Its not a good car, but it is a Mini.
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Thanks for the honest opinions both. It’s good to get another perspective on these things. My daughter has a F56 MINI One manual but to be honest when I have driven that I have genuinely not noticed the offset of the pedals in relation to the steering wheel. I would definitely be getting an auto so hopefully even less of an issue.Maybe I’m just naturally wonky :undecided: :grin:
Depreciation is a problem with any car. Granted some more than others but if you buy with a good enough discount in the first place that helps. Plenty of time before I need to make a decision. Better stop this now though as I inadvertently seem to have dragged this thread well and truly off topic !!
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I have a friend at work who has a 2019 Cooper S auto in white with the JCW styling and she absolutely loves it!
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Minis are a bit like cats.
People either love them or hate them.
I’ve just spent the day with my son’s two gorgeous 10 week old kittens.
Well I spent the day measuring, drilling and screwing but I had two tiny helpers!
I love Minis too.
Well 3 door hatches, I dislike the rest of the range quite a lot.
Part of their charm is their very flawed but characterful personalities.
The driving positions are odd, the view out is odd, the cabin is odd...
But it’s all part of their raison d’être and you either get it or you don’t and there’s no wrong or right.
They’re not the quickest or the best handling, they’re probably not even the most fun but they do have their unique niche in the car world and every journey can feel like, err, “an adventure”.
I’ve had an R56 and F56 in the family. I’ve also tested the Electric out albeit too briefly.
The Cooper S is possibly the sweet spot in the range as it’s not as hardcore as a JCW but still has the looks and loads of useable performance.
A friend of mine’s wife has had a Cooper S Auto for a few years and adores it.
To be honest a Cooper S with a JB4 has long been high on my list of possibilities if I go down to one car as it suits my uses and the roads I drive on perfectly.
You can pick up high specced ones around six to nine months old for under £20k.
Easy to get circa 260 bhp out of them with a turbo that spins from almost tickover speeds.
Yeah, not something you’d want to spend hours and hours every day in, they’re not designed for that. But as a fun car that feels like it’s hewn from a solid lump of steel then a really good call.
Oh, and I didn’t have a problem with the pedal positions in them either, however the footwell isn’t the widest (but is long). Sitting in the back of one is genuine torture, never mind the sports seats in the front!
I actually had Lounge Leather seats in the one we owned (was a cheap ex-showroom car loaded with extras) and much preferred the cloth.
Back on topic, I saw a gentleman in a 20 plate TCR today near Teignmouth. It looked very nice on the standard Belvederes and the driver definitely wasn’t in the 17-25 category if you get my drift!
I did nod but I think he suffered Pure Grey snobbery :laugh:
I think the poll scores as I write this are quite telling about us GTI owners.
Now where’s me pipe and slippers?
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I ordered my first GTI back in December 2019 at the age of 31. Now 32 and just hoping it gets delivered before I turn 33.
I was definitely surprised to read some of the ages in this thread. I figured I was one of the youngest but was expecting only by 10 years or so, not 30-40.
I always liked Golf's but didn't really desire a GTI until seeing some Mk 5 reviews, on things like top gear, back when it came out.
When I first passed my test and was driving around in a £600 Mk 1 Fiat Punto and all the boy racers were split between Saxo VTR/VTS' and those slightly richer in the EP3 Civic Type R's. I was totally put off by the image of those cars being boy racer-y but still wanting something nicer and faster I ended up getting a Corolla Tsport. It definitely doesn't have the badge of anything German or the road going reputation of the Civics but 15 years later, with it still parked outside having never let me down once, I have no regrets. Its 90% of the car the EP3 is but for less money and less boy racer image. The 8k+ redline on B roads is still fun even today.
Now in my 30's, moved back into the UK and with the ability to afford one I knew I was getting a GTI, and the TCR really spoke to me so it was a very easy sell.
Your decision to ask for opinions on a Golf GTI forum may have been a bit self validating though. Its like going to Church and asking who likes God.
my opinion is actually the older you get still driving something you find fun means you are a better human being than those who cave to being boring just because they think they are too old. There's a women in her 50's who lives across the street and she drives a Scirocco R in Metalic Purple and she might just be my hero.
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There was someone else on here I saw the other day who had gone to a Cooper-S from a GTI.... have a look and see what he said about it.
Do you remember where this was? I would like to have a read :smiley:
Exonian... it would definitely be a 3dr!! I agree the rest of the range with possibly the exception of the clubman is just a cynical marketing exercise to wring every last sale by using the MINI name. If I go ahead it will very much be a weekend special. I think they look great too but it is definitely a marmite thing as to which side you fall :smiley:
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I have a friend at work who has a 2019 Cooper S auto in white with the JCW styling and she absolutely loves it!
Case closed
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I have a friend at work who has a 2019 Cooper S auto in white with the JCW styling and she absolutely loves it!
Case closed
:grin: :laugh: :rolleyes: :whistle:
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I have a friend at work who has a 2019 Cooper S auto in white with the JCW styling and she absolutely loves it!
Case closed
Says the man who wears Lycra tights for a hobby :whistle:
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Thanks for the honest opinions both. It’s good to get another perspective on these things. My daughter has a F56 MINI One manual but to be honest when I have driven that I have genuinely not noticed the offset of the pedals in relation to the steering wheel. I would definitely be getting an auto so hopefully even less of an issue.Maybe I’m just naturally wonky :undecided: :grin:
Depreciation is a problem with any car. Granted some more than others but if you buy with a good enough discount in the first place that helps. Plenty of time before I need to make a decision. Better stop this now though as I inadvertently seem to have dragged this thread well and truly off topic !!
With depreciation like that, you just shouldn't buy new. We were looking at Cooper S 5 door with £27k RRP. They were up on the used forecourt of Coopers BMW/Mini for £14k 13 months old. So just over 50% RRP at just over a year old. Unless you were getting a £10k discount off new (never going to happen), you'd be better off letting someone else take that hit and buy a year old one that someone might've farted into the seat base a few times (apart from the dockside delivery driver when new!).
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Thanks for the honest opinions both. It’s good to get another perspective on these things. My daughter has a F56 MINI One manual but to be honest when I have driven that I have genuinely not noticed the offset of the pedals in relation to the steering wheel. I would definitely be getting an auto so hopefully even less of an issue.Maybe I’m just naturally wonky :undecided: :grin:
Depreciation is a problem with any car. Granted some more than others but if you buy with a good enough discount in the first place that helps. Plenty of time before I need to make a decision. Better stop this now though as I inadvertently seem to have dragged this thread well and truly off topic !!
With depreciation like that, you just shouldn't buy new. We were looking at Cooper S 5 door with £27k RRP. They were up on the used forecourt of Coopers BMW/Mini for £14k 13 months old. So just over 50% RRP at just over a year old. Unless you were getting a £10k discount off new (never going to happen), you'd be better off letting someone else take that hit and buy a year old one that someone might've farted into the seat base a few times (apart from the dockside delivery driver when new!).
Or find a good lease and don't worry about depreciation, there's plenty of Mini deals (on all models) doing the rounds if you look hard enough.
I snapped this up for my GF a couple of months ago...
(https://i.postimg.cc/L55HxZMJ/90144932-104914831062399-7745663054844059306-n.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BPW96bb3)
5d Cooper (1.5 3cyd Turbo Petrol 134hp), 7 speed DCT, Metallic Paint, Nav Pack, Comfort Pack, and black roof/mirrors.
3+23 @ £168pcm on 8k miles pa.
To buy/PCP etc the car is £22,100 OTR, so all in the lease is only 19.85% which I think is pretty good.
:)
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Ok, just for the purpose of stopping the Mini Cooper conversation and returning to the title of this topic.....
I realise I am one of the old farts but very astonished at the apparent age profile of owners based on the poll results so far.
Anyone else as surprised as I am?
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Ok, just for the purpose of stopping the Mini Cooper conversation and returning to the title of this topic.....
I realise I am one of the old farts but very astonished at the apparent age profile of owners based on the poll results so far.
Anyone else as surprised as I am?
It might be that the age profile of forum members isn’t representative of the overall age profile of GTI owners. Perhaps younger GTI owners use other forms of social media such as Facebook groups, and IMO these groups are likely to be less appealing to more mature GTI owners.
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It might be that the age profile of forum members isn’t representative of the overall age profile of GTI owners. Perhaps younger GTI owners use other forms of social media such as Facebook groups, and IMO these groups are likely to be less appealing to more mature GTI owners.
I would agree. Having joined the TCR owner’s group on Facebook in the early days, after the initial pictures and chats as people took delivery it very quickly became a discussion on de-cats, wraps, slamming and GPF removal and my guess is the average age on there would have been firmly in the 25 to 35 bracket.
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Ok, just for the purpose of stopping the Mini Cooper conversation and returning to the title of this topic.....
I realise I am one of the old farts but very astonished at the apparent age profile of owners based on the poll results so far.
Anyone else as surprised as I am?
The poll reflects a profile of the forum not model ownership. Professionally, I've worked with VW (late 2018 admittedly but not that much has changed I suspect) and know the data. It most definitely doesn't match the forum poll results. As you'd expect, access to vehicles like the GTI has broadened due to financing but I think it would be fair to call it a broad church. There are younger communities on IG and FB.
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AGB, I realise that this forum is one of many people might post in or even as you state in social media sites too, and is no way truly indicative of the general age in the UK of performance Golf drivers, but the point of the Poll was to see the ages of people on HERE. I've been a member for many years, and built up a pool of "virtual" friends, but never knew what sort of age bracket they fitted into (not that it matters one jot).
I can say though that (so far), I'm actually quite surprised at the "maturity" of the members on here that have responded. My sort of people ;D
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AGB, I realise that this forum is one of many people might post in or even as you state in social media sites too, and is no way truly indicative of the general age in the UK of performance Golf drivers, but the point of the Poll was to see the ages of people on HERE. I've been a member for many years, and built up a pool of "virtual" friends, but never knew what sort of age bracket they fitted into (not that it matters one jot).
I can say though that (so far), I'm actually quite surprised at the "maturity" of the members on here that have responded. My sort of people ;D
I think I read a comment as being indicative of the model not the forum. No big deal, my comment still stands.
There is a great community here and a tremendous depth of knowledge. Some forums have an intolerable tone or a few individuals who are just tiresome. I've always like this place as being 'adult' and not like that. :grin:
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I've always like this place as being 'adult' and not like that. :grin:
I've always thought the same.... and now we know why :whistle:
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I've always like this place as being 'adult' and not like that. :grin:
I've always thought the same.... and now we know why :whistle:
This place is so adult, when I looked at the recent threads just now, "wheel swapping help" initially registered with me as "wife swapping help". :grin:
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This place is so adult, when I looked at the recent threads just now, "wheel swapping help" initially registered with me as "wife swapping help". :grin:
new exhuast pipe and a big bore kit?
I spend too much time here....
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This place is so adult, when I looked at the recent threads just now, "wheel swapping help" initially registered with me as "wife swapping help". :grin:
new exhuast pipe and a big bore kit?
I spend too much time here....
(Dog) bone mount insert.
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I've always like this place as being 'adult' and not like that. :grin:
I've always thought the same.... and now we know why :whistle:
This place is so adult, when I looked at the recent threads just now, "wheel swapping help" initially registered with me as "wife swapping help". :grin:
:laugh:
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Evening. I’m a mere whippersnapper at 45. Agree with most comments. The GTI is a timeless, classless classic. It’s all things to all people. I’ve lost count the number of reviews I’ve seen which have asked if you could only have one car for all tasks, what would it be? The answer is nearly always a GTI. I also think that despite pcp, there can’t be many under 35s who can afford a GTI, or at least, not a new one.
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Sooooo....just as an excuse to keep this string “alive”, from their own casual observation does anyone think the age profile of GTD drivers and R drivers differs from GTI drivers?
There’s no point to be made other than I suppose I wonder if the “GTI heritage”, ( horrible phrase but I can’t think of another one), makes a difference to buying decisions?
Go on someone, shoot an old guy down!
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I think the R is a little more niche and isn’t that more expensive. I ruled it out as I read the GTI was more fun, I prefer the looks (the R looks like an SE) and I don’t need AWD or the risk factor (more nickable).
The GTD didn’t really appeal because I don’t do the mileage to get any benefit. But it’s certainly not the cool option so I can’t see any under 30s opting for it through choice.
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I'm late thirties (very late thirties!) and when I first passed my test I really fancied getting a Golf GTI mk 2 however, as with most 18 year old's they were simply out of my price range.
I guess that wanting a GTI has never really left my system and I'm now lucky enough to be in a position where I own a mk 7. It definitely gives me a sense of nostalgia and it makes me proud and extremely happy to be driving a car which I've worked hard for and wanted for so long.
I really don't care what other people think, the car put's a smile on my face whenever I see if from my window and I guess that's all that counts for me.
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I’m 67 on my 3 rd gti in 6 years :whistle:
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I'm 46 and still heavily modding so maybe I'm at the tipping point to just buying a newer GTI soon and leaving it stock :grin:.
Tbh I am surprised at the poll results but think as someone mentioned earlier in the thread that forums tend to be more for the older generations as they are what we are used to as I do tend to think the youth lean towards the likes of FB and others.
I think the big thing for me and seems to be the trend here is that those that frequent forums are petrolheads at heart and so the GTI sits really well in terms of the out the box performance hatchback that is also practical and not in your face.
Plus the GTI is heading up to near double figure generations so we've all grown up around them too from the stunning Mk1's introduction.
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Based on nothing more than casual observation the R demographic seems generally younger and in this poll would have dropped in the 26-35 group at the lower end.
Many on here, myself included, could have gone with an R but chose the GTI because of the very different way they drive and of course the badge and heritage. If neither of those are a factor then for similar cost 306 bhp and AWD over 230 bhp and FWD probably seems a no-brainer.
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I think the 'R' is the better platform for modding as its easy to get cheap bhp gains from an already good enough start point. In that respect many will sadly end up like the numerous bastardised Mark 2 GTI's that were ruined once they became affordable to the slam it and chip it brigade. With PCP and loans easy enough to come by nowadays entry level of +/- £15k is doable for an out of warranty car ripe for stage 1 for a few hundred quid.
At the end of last year I test drove a Golf GTI PP with 19" Brescia's. Loved it. Then tried a Golf 'R' with 19" Spielbergs. Both 2019 models with no DCC and both very "spirited" test drives in damp conditions, plus some 'real world' driving. Loved the R more. A lot more - so bought that.
Have just had the R detailed (2 stage paint correction then Feynlab ceramic coating) which is money well spent and intend to keep it as it is (no lowering or chipping) and for a very long time. It's the perfect all rounder to me.
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Hi would just like to say that at nearly 60 years of age I still love driving this gti? it puts a smile on my face! My gti is 2013 pp early model love the colour grey carbon metallic. just done 57000 miles! Service buy my-self as only let me down once! Deaded waterpump Essue thermostat. I will keep this car for a long time! Cleans up well and looks great? :grin:
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I bought a Mk7 GTD at the end of 2014. We wanted a sporty Golf, new, and there were bigger discounts on the GTD.
It was a fabulous car and we had it a couple of years but it never really scratched the itch of a GTi.
The red accents to the GTi and the petrol refinement just give it the edge for us.
It's a second car, we do less than 2k miles a year in it and I reckon we will keep it until it becomes socially unacceptable to drive anything that isn't electric...... :sad:
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Based on nothing more than casual observation the R demographic seems generally younger and in this poll would have dropped in the 26-35 group at the lower end.
IMO the R suffers from a younger 'init bruv' image due to the cheap leases that flooded the market and saturated the brand making it accessible to anybody with £200 a month. The GTI has never had that, I think there was a cheapish lease deal a few years back, but it's always been a brand VW have wanted to protect.
Many on here, myself included, could have gone with an R but chose the GTI because of the very different way they drive and of course the badge and heritage.
I'm one of those. The R is a capable point and shoot weapon, but doesn't reward in the slightest. Fine for traffic light grand prix's, but once on the move the R has very little a GTI can't do.
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Hi Guys,
New here and found this thread this evening. Was personally quite shocked that nobody had previously fallen into the 17-25 category as I do. Have seen quite a few people I would have said fell into that category previously, but maybe that's you 'old boys' in your shades. :wink: Quite insightful really, but I seem to find a lot of younger people seem to go chasing big power figures, automatically throwing them at the R, without thinking about the driving experience offered by a GTI. :shocked:
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I know this has been done before, but bear with me.
As you may have seen from my signature I own a MK7.5 GTI, and it is a car that I do love driving and still think it looks very nice and modern against it's peers. However, I was speaking to my brother (who's 2 years older than me) the other day, and he said as nice as the GTI was, at "my age" he just couldn't see himself driving round in a young person's "boy racer" car.
Now of course everyone is entitled to his (or her) own opinion, but it did get me thinking if I should be in a more "grown up" car, so started browsing at other potential cars that not only look nice, but perhaps suit my age better (so Range Rover Sport, Audi A5, Jaguar E-Pace, Merc C class, BMW 3 series etc.). Problem is, 1) they all cost a small fortune and 2) there's only the wife and I (and occasionally 2 dogs) in the car, so a Golf sized car has always suited.
It brought me round full circle thinking that for our current needs, the GTI is the right size, looks good, pretty economical for it's genre, it's very well equipped (especially with mine being highly spec'd) and most importantly is paid for, but perhaps does make this overweight, greying 57 year old perhaps look like he's trying to cling onto his youth.
Therefore do any more "mature" drivers on here ever think that, or is it a case of "sod it" I'll drive what I want for as long as I want ? Just interested in your views really. Can a performance Golf really transcend age and not look out of place for anyone, or are they really a young persons' car ?
Lol, I can't remember if I've already replied to this thread.
I have the exact same thoughts as you.... but I'm one of the 2% in the lowest age bracket :laugh:
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Hi Guys,
New here and found this thread this evening. Was personally quite shocked that nobody had previously fallen into the 17-25 category as I do. Have seen quite a few people I would have said fell into that category previously, but maybe that's you 'old boys' in your shades. :wink: Quite insightful really, but I seem to find a lot of younger people seem to go chasing big power figures, automatically throwing them at the R, without thinking about the driving experience offered by a GTI. :shocked:
I am in that group! Hello! I'm not sure why I only just replied. I think maybe the poll was added later?
I think the numbers are skewed a bit as younger owners will be on Facebook and Instagram rather than dedicated forums. Dedicated forums tend to have a much older demographic, in my experience.
PS: Well done for choosing the better car and not just "chasing power figures" ;)
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Well, I’ve got a TCR, graphics down the side and I’m 48. I don’t care what people may or may not think, the car is epic. I guess it helps I don’t look 48 but still, drive a car that puts a smile on your face, not one that you feel you should drive!
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Hi to all. don't ever give a second thought that you may be too old for a gti,
I drive my gti like iv'e stole it and in January i'll be 76, age can be a state
of mind,iv'e never ever felt to old for any car, in fact I bought an M3 when I
was 65, although it was a great car it wasn't as much fun to drive as the gti.
stay young and drive what the hell you like, oops that reminds me I must
re-apply for my expiring licence.
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Hi Guys,
New here and found this thread this evening. Was personally quite shocked that nobody had previously fallen into the 17-25 category as I do. Have seen quite a few people I would have said fell into that category previously, but maybe that's you 'old boys' in your shades. :wink: Quite insightful really, but I seem to find a lot of younger people seem to go chasing big power figures, automatically throwing them at the R, without thinking about the driving experience offered by a GTI. :shocked:
I am in that group! Hello! I'm not sure why I only just replied. I think maybe the poll was added later?
I think the numbers are skewed a bit as younger owners will be on Facebook and Instagram rather than dedicated forums. Dedicated forums tend to have a much older demographic, in my experience.
PS: Well done for choosing the better car and not just "chasing power figures" ;)
Hello! Yeah most likely. Have seen a lot about previously. Haha thanks, I certainly think so too :laugh:
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i'm 35 but only started driving when i was 31, my dad even though he really likes my Clubsport, says he feels he is too old when driving it (he's 61), told him who cares, if you enjoy it then drive it (i always offer the car to my parents to take away if they want to go on a break, but he always says that comment.....he does say also even tho it's fun, he is scared encase he marks it lol), but nah, whatever car you like or makes you smile then who cares of age.
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Returning from holiday to France this summer in the family Alhambra, took the kids to Mcdonalds Dover just before the long schlepp up to the midlands.
In the parking bay next to us was an elderly couple in their Mx5, roof off, enjoying a cup of tea.
What a nice way to enjoy retirement.
I said to the wife then- that'll be us in a few years- though I'll have a Lotus Elise thanks.
As for the golf gti, good to see some young people also on the forum, dispelling the myth that the golf gti is an old man's car :grin:
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Or its likely you will be in out your 205 GTi and they will be in the Seat and asking whats dad doing today ? :laugh: :smiley:
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Ha, yeah. They like the 205 actually- my youngest in particular- they like the sound and smell- and they think it’s faster than the golf!
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Returning from holiday to France this summer in the family Alhambra, took the kids to Mcdonalds Dover just before the long schlepp up to the midlands.
In the parking bay next to us was an elderly couple in their Mx5, roof off, enjoying a cup of tea.
What a nice way to enjoy retirement.
I said to the wife then- that'll be us in a few years- though I'll have a Lotus Elise thanks.
As for the golf gti, good to see some young people also on the forum, dispelling the myth that the golf gti is an old man's car :grin:
Funny that, an elise was my other choice before moving into the Golf GTI. Very different cars I know, but the potentially very low running costs for an n/a 1.6 S3 were very attractive. Felt the compromise was just too much at this point in time with my job. Maybe some time in the future. Not like the clubsport doesn't feel special enough either :wink:
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Returning from holiday to France this summer in the family Alhambra, took the kids to Mcdonalds Dover just before the long schlepp up to the midlands.
In the parking bay next to us was an elderly couple in their Mx5, roof off, enjoying a cup of tea.
What a nice way to enjoy retirement.
I said to the wife then- that'll be us in a few years- though I'll have a Lotus Elise thanks.
As for the golf gti, good to see some young people also on the forum, dispelling the myth that the golf gti is an old man's car :grin:
Funny that, an elise was my other choice before moving into the Golf GTI. Very different cars I know, but the potentially very low running costs for an n/a 1.6 S3 were very attractive. Felt the compromise was just too much at this point in time with my job. Maybe some time in the future. Not like the clubsport doesn't feel special enough either :wink:
Ever since they came out in 1996 I've thought " maybe some time in the future". I think there will be very few people who can run them as an only car- or even a main car.
I think I'll have to wait until retirement- a supercharged s3 to run alongside my ageing mk7 golf!
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I am amazed at this. I honestly thought there would be far more GTI drivers in the younger age bracket. It's definitely a classic boy racer type of car which would probably appeal to slightly older parties as VW have fused sport/elegance together to form the 7/7.5 GTI in my opinion which provides an almost perfect balance without sticking a 6ft spoiler on the rear.
I'm 25, however by the time I hit 21 I had an Alfa Romeo, an Audi A5 and an Audi RS3 from new. After an F10 M5 and the ridiculous fuel bills that came with it, the Golf sat just right for me and has done for almost a year of ownership now.
I probably wouldn't buy a new car from the factory again but with the announcement of Petrol/Diesel cars being banned by 2030 it may be pertinent to buy a dream car before that time. I think the next step for me will be an SUV or an Estate car, especially when kids arrive next year.
Good on everyone for choosing a GTI though, they're awesome cars!!