GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk7 => Topic started by: Sootchucker on 23 January 2020, 11:44
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Was having a drink with my mate last night, and as usual we got onto the subject of cars. One question which popped up (totally hypothetical of course), was with an R having "just" a 55ps greater power output that a GTI PP but of course AWD, how much of the approx 1.6 seconds better 0-60 (4.6 vs 6.2) is down to power and how much down to the AWD ?
Furthermore, in this make believe world of mine, if VW had of produced a MK7.5 245ps GTI but equipped it with AWD, how much would that shave of it's 0-60 ?
My mate went onto to say that (like me) when he had his MK7 GTD, the official 0-60 time was around 7.5 seconds. It's sister car the Audi A3 sportback was available with the same 183ps engine in S-Line trim, but with AWD, and if I remember correctly, the 0-60 time on that car was down to around 6.8 seconds (so 0.7 seconds quicker just with AWD), and I think the A3 sportback was also slightly heavier. Sadly this wasn't available on the GTD (and never was). Obviously the car's aren't the same so it's a bit of a moot point anyway.
So there's no real purpose around the question and it will (and has) never happen, but just to conclude our discussion, what are your thoughts ?
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Look at performance figures for the TCR as a 2wd comparison, weight is another consideration in addition to bhp & driven wheels.
CS for a manual comparison?
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You could probably lose several years of your life watching YouTube vids of drag races to scientifically prove the result!
If purely looking at off the line acceleration then traction plays a massive part.
The Clubsport had 35PS more than a GTI PP of its time and the same torque when not in overboost and yet had very little, if any, advantage over the GTI PP unless going quite a bit faster than 60 mph off the line. Basically the power was just spun away and third gear overboost not reached (or barely at best) at such speed.
I doubt even the TCR with yet more power and torque in first and second gear than a Clubsport would be more than a few tenths ahead.
Another factor is how high the engine revs before the power tails off.
The R produces BHP and torque further up the rev range than the GTI Performance which also means higher rev change points which shaves important fractions in DSG but even more in a manual.
https://youtu.be/7OVr7eWSex8
Off the line the 4WD makes a massive difference if it doesn’t bog down (which it can if you don’t get it perfect)
https://youtu.be/IP8W7DnVKkM (TCR and R similar power and torque)
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my 2 x Audi 2.0 TDi Quattro might have had the advantage of the AWD but you still sat there waiting for the turbo to spool up before it launched itself, there was a micro second (that seemed an eternity) of nothing as pressed pedal, and then everything, which think in these 8P chassis Diesel Turbo of the time you really had to have the AWD as you be spinning wheels at every pull away given the engine behaviour
Those Quattro were not agile in anyway and ride was a back breaker on a rough surface, but did grow to love their solid/heavy on the rails capabilities,
As Exonian says, so many variables to consider, weight, tyres, engine and gear box mapping etc and so on.
The bog down resonated as something had to get used to as not expected, you always think with AWD is plant the accelerator and go, but sometimes you did that and for that micro second if felt like you were glued to the tarmac before it launched away.
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I think it's 95 percent down to the traction with the R, if you look at some of the drag races done the R gets off the line almost cartoon like initially!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZElU-y9HQHE
around 1 minute in! :shocked:
Only issue I'd have is IF they did a AWD GTI it would kill the light on its feet feeling of the car! I think VW have it bang on with the line up as it is!! :cool:
Nice original post/question btw!
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Another vote for traction. The R and TCR have very similar power and torque output but the power to weight ratio of the TCR is higher courtesy of the extra 170kg the R carries with the AWD drivetrain, and the mighty CSS took that even further at nearly 240kg lighter than the R, yet both TCR and CSS are significantly slower than the R in the traffic light grand prix. Once on the move it's a very different story :smiley:
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Traction, 100%. There was a video of a Golf R vs Seat Leon Cupra 290 and the Leon beats it round the track.
The instant grip and pull from the Golf R is incredible but it doesn't feels as nimble and light as a GTI.
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Traction, 100%. There was a video of a Golf R vs Seat Leon Cupra 290 and the Leon beats it round the track.
The instant grip and pull from the Golf R is incredible but it doesn't feels as nimble and light as a GTI.
Wasn't this one by any chance was it Ryan?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5dRujiHbpA
Old clip but I can't tell you how many times I watched it while deciding and waiting to pick up my first R!!! :cool:
I fell in love with the Lapiz blue because of this vid..... not sure how I ended up with a white one though!!! :grin:
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Another hypothetical question... Would you have got the R over the GTI all things being equal apart from AWD v FWD and the associated price increase?
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Another one for the AWD being the key. 0-60 is all about traction. You can have all the power you want but if you can't put it down then it's going to kill the times.
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Another hypothetical question... Would you have got the R over the GTI all things being equal apart from AWD v FWD and the associated price increase?
To be honest I took the GTI over another R after driving both in 7.5 guise and preferred how the GTI drove, price didn't worry me too much it was nothing more than a bonus the GTI was cheaper!
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how much of the approx 1.6 seconds better 0-60 (4.6 vs 6.2) is down to power and how much down to the AWD ?
Two questions:
1) Laden or unladen?
2) African or European?
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;D ;D Fred, is that in homage to the late great Terry Jones from Monty Python fame ?
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;D ;D Fred, is that in homage to the late great Terry Jones from Monty Python fame ?
Absoloutely!
:cool:
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;D ;D Fred, is that in homage to the late great Terry Jones from Monty Python fame ?
Absoloutely!
:cool:
:huh: explains why it went straight over my head!! :grin:
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;D ;D Fred, is that in homage to the late great Terry Jones from Monty Python fame ?
Absoloutely!
:cool:
That's no ordinary rabbit.. :wink:
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Was having a drink with my mate last night, and as usual we got onto the subject of cars. One question which popped up (totally hypothetical of course), was with an R having "just" a 55ps greater power output that a GTI PP but of course AWD, how much of the approx 1.6 seconds better 0-60 (4.6 vs 6.2) is down to power and how much down to the AWD ?
Furthermore, in this make believe world of mine, if VW had of produced a MK7.5 245ps GTI but equipped it with AWD, how much would that shave of it's 0-60 ?
My mate went onto to say that (like me) when he had his MK7 GTD, the official 0-60 time was around 7.5 seconds. It's sister car the Audi A3 sportback was available with the same 183ps engine in S-Line trim, but with AWD, and if I remember correctly, the 0-60 time on that car was down to around 6.8 seconds (so 0.7 seconds quicker just with AWD), and I think the A3 sportback was also slightly heavier. Sadly this wasn't available on the GTD (and never was). Obviously the car's aren't the same so it's a bit of a moot point anyway.
So there's no real purpose around the question and it will (and has) never happen, but just to conclude our discussion, what are your thoughts ?
The easiest way to answer this is to look at the closest car with the same engine and AWD. The A4 TSI Quattro.
Here are the stats and tech specs below. Audi is a chunk heavier. Pretty much same power. But nearly 0.5 sec quicker to 62. So I guess you could easily argue that AWD does make a good difference.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PxckXq2G/A370400-B-A6-E0-45-C3-9453-CF0535554-A9-A.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sQpLKskK)
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Surely it would make more sense to compare a FWD A4 with a AWD one? Or equally, any model of car that has the same engine in both F/AWD options.
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Surely it would make more sense to compare a FWD A4 with a AWD one? Or equally, any model of car that has the same engine in both F/AWD options.
Since the OP asked about his Golf and with this being a Golf forum, I opted to compare a Golf (with the same engined car in the VAG family) :wink:
Think it shows that despite more weight, with the same power and AWD, the Audi is quicker off the mark. That's all I was showing.
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Better performance in snow (rather than off the mark) would be what I would see as the benefit of AWD (if indeed there is much advantage of the R in that respect). I know we don't get much of the white stuff these days but did miss a weekend away couple of years ago as couldn't get out of town.....
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Better performance in snow (rather than off the mark) would be what I would see as the benefit of AWD (if indeed there is much advantage of the R in that respect). I know we don't get much of the white stuff these days but did miss a weekend away couple of years ago as couldn't get out of town.....
totally irrelevant if you can't stop the car in snow. AWD will make no difference what so ever.
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Better performance in snow (rather than off the mark) would be what I would see as the benefit of AWD (if indeed there is much advantage of the R in that respect). I know we don't get much of the white stuff these days but did miss a weekend away couple of years ago as couldn't get out of town.....
totally irrelevant if you can't stop the car in snow. AWD will make no difference what so ever.
It would be better going up hills and banks and steep driveways though.
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Better performance in snow (rather than off the mark) would be what I would see as the benefit of AWD (if indeed there is much advantage of the R in that respect). I know we don't get much of the white stuff these days but did miss a weekend away couple of years ago as couldn't get out of town.....
totally irrelevant if you can't stop the car in snow. AWD will make no difference what so ever.
It would be better going up hills and banks and steep driveways though.
maybe if you have winter tyres on but you still won't be able to stop going down the hills and banks :grin::grin:
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Better performance in snow (rather than off the mark) would be what I would see as the benefit of AWD (if indeed there is much advantage of the R in that respect). I know we don't get much of the white stuff these days but did miss a weekend away couple of years ago as couldn't get out of town.....
The AWD maybe useful to get moving in the snow but as already said, it's the stopping that's the issue with the white stuff!! Or as I found out, large icebergs dropping out from a lorry wheel arch and ripping the entire of my oil sump off at 50mph!! :angry: I'm not sure if it being plastic limited the damage or if a metal one wouldn't have be so catastrophic.... either way a Golf R on a tow truck is a very sad sight..... even worse when it's your own!! :cry:
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Better performance in snow (rather than off the mark) would be what I would see as the benefit of AWD (if indeed there is much advantage of the R in that respect). I know we don't get much of the white stuff these days but did miss a weekend away couple of years ago as couldn't get out of town.....
The AWD maybe useful to get moving in the snow but as already said, it's the stopping that's the issue with the white stuff!! Or as I found out, large icebergs dropping out from a lorry wheel arch and ripping the entire of my oil sump off at 50mph!! :angry: I'm not sure if it being plastic limited the damage or if a metal one wouldn't have be so catastrophic.... either way a Golf R on a tow truck is a very sad sight..... even worse when it's your own!! :cry:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJZpNqFD/R.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Still painful to look at!!! :undecided:
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maybe if you have winter tyres on but you still won't be able to stop going down the hills and banks :grin::grin:
I’ve driven FWD cars in the snow on summer tyres for years and the only problem I’ve had is driving up the steep hill to get into my cul-de-sac, going down it in thick snow has never been a bother if you know how to regulate your speed and travel down with assistance from engine braking.
AWD cars cruise up banks and hills even on summer tyres if you don’t have a lead foot. Speed and throttle control achieve a lot more in snow than you realise.
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large icebergs dropping out from a lorry wheel arch and ripping the entire of my oil sump off at 50mph!! :angry: I'm not sure if it being plastic limited the damage or if a metal one wouldn't have be so catastrophic.... either way a Golf R on a tow truck is a very sad sight..... even worse when it's your own!! :cry:
Time to retro-fit the reinforced VW skidtray?
https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/index.php?threads/how-to-retro-fit-skid-trays-aerodynamic-under-trays-stone-guards-to-a-mk7-golf.320687/
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large icebergs dropping out from a lorry wheel arch and ripping the entire of my oil sump off at 50mph!! :angry: I'm not sure if it being plastic limited the damage or if a metal one wouldn't have be so catastrophic.... either way a Golf R on a tow truck is a very sad sight..... even worse when it's your own!! :cry:
Time to retro-fit the reinforced VW skidtray?
https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/index.php?threads/how-to-retro-fit-skid-trays-aerodynamic-under-trays-stone-guards-to-a-mk7-golf.320687/
I appreciate the info but me and that car parted ways last year..... nothing to do with the "titanic" moment just time for a change! :whistle:
I don't think I'd be fitting one to my current car either, it was just a freak incident involving a lump of ice frozen to the road and invisible to me because of the snow! Once in 25 yrs of driving…. I'll take my chances but thanks anyway! :wink:
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The AWD maybe useful to get moving in the snow but as already said, it's the stopping that's the issue with the white stuff!! Or as I found out, large icebergs dropping out from a lorry wheel arch and ripping the entire of my oil sump off at 50mph!! :angry: I'm not sure if it being plastic limited the damage or if a metal one wouldn't have be so catastrophic.... either way a Golf R on a tow truck is a very sad sight..... even worse when it's your own!! :cry:
Not good and was a worry of mine with anything smacking the underneath, so I've got one of the ECS aluminium skid plates:
https://www.awesomegti.com/shop-by-brand/ecs-tuning/ecs-tuning-street-shield-aluminum-skid-plate-kit-mk7-golf/ (http://)
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Raj - is your car manual or DSG? That website says the Al skid pan only fits manual facelift Golfs...?
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Not good and was a worry of mine with anything smacking the underneath, so I've got one of the ECS aluminium skid plates:
https://www.awesomegti.com/shop-by-brand/ecs-tuning/ecs-tuning-street-shield-aluminum-skid-plate-kit-mk7-golf/ (http://)
The VW one made for the Golf/MQB platform is a perfect fit, better for aero, & locates to the front chassis rails...the ECS on originally didn't so could still be smacked up into the plastic oil pan...they later made a cross bar to support the front.....after I pointed out their design flaws....
My 5yr old VW one is fine...nice & quiet when stuff (gravel/wildlife) hits it unlike aluminum ...
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Raj - is your car manual or DSG? That website says the Al skid pan only fits manual facelift Golfs...?
doesn't matter raj's is a mk7 not 7.5.....
Wasn't sure if a quote from another thread would work but guess it does!! :whistle:
Only thing today was a good clean and nice photo op with the toy.
Angels and Demons:
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y15/Raj328/Golf%20GTI/E52E67DA-CD20-41A2-B7ED-11B206CDDA23_zpszup5zax6.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/Raj328/media/Golf%20GTI/E52E67DA-CD20-41A2-B7ED-11B206CDDA23_zpszup5zax6.jpg.html)
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Raj - is your car manual or DSG? That website says the Al skid pan only fits manual facelift Golfs...?
Mines DSG buddy and fits fine. Might be another one for DSG but it was from Awesome.
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The VW one made for the Golf/MQB platform is a perfect fit, better for aero, & locates to the front chassis rails...the ECS on originally didn't so could still be smacked up into the plastic oil pan...they later made a cross bar to support the front.....after I pointed out their design flaws....
My 5yr old VW one is fine...nice & quiet when stuff (gravel/wildlife) hits it unlike aluminum ...
Ah didn’t know that. Tbh I got mine off the donor GTI I bought and Midland VW swapped it over when they did the intercooler swap.
Don’t notice too much noise tbf from anything that might be thrown up so all good and at least there’s some extra protection.
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doesn't matter raj's is a mk7 not 7.5.....
Wasn't sure if a quote from another thread would work but guess it does!! :whistle:
Cheers buddy and that’s good to know too :wink: