GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk7 => Topic started by: mullermn on 28 March 2019, 11:11
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Hi,
I have a 63 plate GTI with keyless entry and I was wondering if there's any information on whether I should be worried about these thefts using keyless signal repeaters that I've read about?
Our key (when you use the buttons, at least) definitely reaches from where the key lives to the driveway so if the golf is vulnerable to this technique then it'd probably work here.
I've looked at wallets for the keys to prevent this sort of thing, but that obviously removes a lot of the benefit of having keyless if you then need to remember to faff around wrapping the key up every time you put it away.
Cheers
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Yes, you should be worried - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47721590
1 car every 6 mins in the UK thanks to keyless.
Think most people probably leave the key in the wallet which then makes it less likely to pop in your trouser pocket.
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A common misconception is that these relay thefts simply grab the signal and repeat it, that's not true, they also extend the signal, so you could put your key 100 yards away from your house but it would make no difference, the system will throw the signal from the box to the repeater from a long long way away.
As default on all my 'keyless' cars I use both a Disklok (https://amzn.to/2EoW0EB) (plus the Steering wheel protector (https://amzn.to/2TXYwqO)) and a pouch (https://amzn.to/2GFBvGb).
Luckily having keyless/KESSY is no longer that much of a security risk on the Golf 7.5, because it can be disabled. Lock the car with the fob, then within 5 seconds press the keyless button/sensor on the door handle. That switches off the keyless-entry system until the next time you unlock the car with the fob. Perfect for when leaving a 7.5 overnight or if in a particularly vulnerable place.
It's all about getting into routine and your security procedures become second nature. It's a bit of a faff at first, but once you have a routine with the Disklok it'll feel normal.
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I have a faraday bag that I leave in the kitchen keys go in every time.
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Have had two pouches since day one (1 for set used and other for spare) and haven't given relay theft a second thought. I pay my car insurance so if it is stolen then it's replaced. Why worry about something that might never happen.
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Silly question, maybe...
But, can you not get faraday cases that are just like covers for the key itself and not an actual pouch?
Id be happy to not have keyless entry and use central locking to open/close the doors as usual :/
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Keyless is so handy though.
As the lads have said, get yourself a farady pouch and get in the habit of putting the key into every night. It becomes second nature eventually.
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So really, with whats been said and the fact you can now disable keyless entry using the 5 second trick, you only really need to put the keys in a pouch when stored at home? And maybe not even that if you get into a habit of the disable trick.
I know this kinda negates the whole point of keyless entry though, mmm
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You can disable keyless entry using OBD11 etc. There is a thread on it on here.
The thing to remember about the repeater theft attack is that it can happen ANYWHERE - not just on your drive.
At any time when the bad guys know where the key is and where the car is they can do it.
One of the other places its likely to happen is when you park your car in a car park. One guy follows you to the meter when you go pay, the other scuzzbag stands next to the car.... you walk across the car park and zoom off goes your car.
So don't just use the faraday pouch when you are at home - it needs to go into it EVERYTIME.
Does it defeat the point of having keyless? Yes. Sorry.
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BTW I wonder if it is possible to order a new GTI without keyless.... its certainly possible for VW to have the parts to do so (its an option in most countries and not standard on lower Golf models).
If/When I order my GTI next year, I think I'll be insisting on that.
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BTW I wonder if it is possible to order a new GTI without keyless.... its certainly possible for VW to have the parts to do so (its an option in most countries and not standard on lower Golf models).
If/When I order my GTI next year, I think I'll be insisting on that.
Will be interesting to see if you can delete the option.
Presumably some people find these things useful and it helps VW sell cars. It seems a bit odd that they reintroduced the option as standard without offering a solution to the security issue.
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A common misconception is that these relay thefts simply grab the signal and repeat it, that's not true, they also extend the signal, so you could put your key 100 yards away from your house but it would make no difference, the system will throw the signal from the box to the repeater from a long long way away.
As default on all my 'keyless' cars I use both a Disklok (https://amzn.to/2EoW0EB) (plus the Steering wheel protector (https://amzn.to/2TXYwqO)) and a pouch (https://amzn.to/2GFBvGb).
Luckily having keyless/KESSY is no longer that much of a security risk on the Golf 7.5, because it can be disabled. Lock the car with the fob, then within 5 seconds press the keyless button/sensor on the door handle. That switches off the keyless-entry system until the next time you unlock the car with the fob. Perfect for when leaving a 7.5 overnight or if in a particularly vulnerable place.
It's all about getting into routine and your security procedures become second nature. It's a bit of a faff at first, but once you have a routine with the Disklok it'll feel normal.
This is now how I always lock my car as I was worried before my R arrived. Great info from kmpowell. Disklok on and in the garage at night.
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A common misconception is that these relay thefts simply grab the signal and repeat it, that's not true, they also extend the signal, so you could put your key 100 yards away from your house but it would make no difference, the system will throw the signal from the box to the repeater from a long long way away.
As default on all my 'keyless' cars I use both a Disklok (https://amzn.to/2EoW0EB) (plus the Steering wheel protector (https://amzn.to/2TXYwqO)) and a pouch (https://amzn.to/2GFBvGb).
Luckily having keyless/KESSY is no longer that much of a security risk on the Golf 7.5, because it can be disabled. Lock the car with the fob, then within 5 seconds press the keyless button/sensor on the door handle. That switches off the keyless-entry system until the next time you unlock the car with the fob. Perfect for when leaving a 7.5 overnight or if in a particularly vulnerable place.
It's all about getting into routine and your security procedures become second nature. It's a bit of a faff at first, but once you have a routine with the Disklok it'll feel normal.
Shame the keyless disable system doesn't work on my Mk7.Just tried your method there, just in case it might work but no chance.I remember not long after i bought mine they dropped the keyless altogether from the 3 door,but not the 5 door?.I guess they were working on the new system.
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A common misconception is that these relay thefts simply grab the signal and repeat it, that's not true, they also extend the signal, so you could put your key 100 yards away from your house but it would make no difference, the system will throw the signal from the box to the repeater from a long long way away.
Could you elaborate on this - surely the the thief would have to know where the key is with some accuracy (or guess correctly) and then has to be relatively close to it to pick up its signal (which is then amplified to the second thief standing near to the car). They range of the signal from the key itself is, as I understand it, quite short and thieves assume the key is kept in the hallway (images on news of thief standing near house front door with 'black box')?
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Well I can't open the car with my keys in the house approximately 15 feet away so to relay the signal they'd have to be in my house and if they are in the house they can just take the keys.
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Well I can't open the car with my keys in the house approximately 15 feet away so to relay the signal they'd have to be in my house and if they are in the house they can just take the keys.
Misconception proven.
The thieves use two parts in relay theft. 1. A scanner/booster 2. A receiver.
The distance from the physical key to your car is totally irrelevant, and the distance from the scanner/booster to your key is only marginally relevant. The only constant that matters is the the distance from the scanner/booster to the receiver.
The receiver is always by the car (waiting for the signal so it can pretend to be the key), it's the scanner/booster that throws a signal to the receiver. The scanner/booster has two range elements, it can throw a captured signal to a receiver that is up to to 100m away, but more importantly it can grab signals from a key that is up to 25m away (depending on what is in between the key and the scanner/booster.
So a thief will normally scan the front of the house for ease (and because most people keep their keys by the front door), but if it's a big house, or it has particularly thick/dense walls, they might go round the back/side as shown in other youtube videos.
This works in car-parks, where you may get followed across a car park and the signal thrown to the receiver, or it might happen at home.
Relay theft is must-function, and multi-scenario.
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Going by your math, why would anyone follow you across the car park if it has a 25 meter range?
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Going by your math, why would anyone follow you across the car park if it has a 25 meter range?
Up to 25meter range from the scanner/booster to the physical key, then up to a 100m range from the scanner/booster to the receiver. They follow to make sure the thief holding the receiver has time to a) get in the car, and then b) to start it. On some cars it’s a two stage process where the kit requires two sets of 'relay' to occur.
These signals use particularly narrow bands though, so they can be interrupted very easily by physical objects, so that 25m distance is much much much shorter in practical terms as a constant signal is required for the relay to work.
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So what your saying is although it has 25 meter range that’s only if the planets align, and at a further distance there are more errors, and even more if the key is not stationary on a table/key hook but in someone’s pocket
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Going by your math, why would anyone follow you across the car park if it has a 25 meter range?
Up to 25meter range from the scanner/booster to the physical key, then up to a 100m range from the scanner/booster to the receiver. They follow to make sure the thief holding the receiver has time to a) get in the car, and then b) to start it. On some cars it’s a two stage process where the kit requires two sets of 'relay' to occur.
These signals use particularly narrow bands though, so they can be interrupted very easily by physical objects, so that 25m distance is much much much shorter in practical terms as a constant signal is required for the relay to work.
Can I ask where these “facts” can be found? Sounds like near field communication technology might be better named far field technology. I am prepared to be educated, but the thought that this feature could be so radically flawed is disturbing.
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Can I ask where these “facts” can be found? Sounds like near field communication technology might be better named far field technology. I am prepared to be educated, but the thought that this feature could be so radically flawed is disturbing.
Here you go, a simple video from December 2016 when the problem first started to gain traction, showing you don't have to be very close/near to a person to grab the signal...
https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/video/consumer-alert-thieves-getting-into-vehicles-using-remote-car-keys-827471939792
Technology has now advanced that the 'scanner' is even stronger. I have no reasons to make anything up, I'm simply trying to help people be more aware of the dangers. Each person's scenario is different, but the basic 'relay' premise is the same and the distances have been tested by thieves who have openly bragged and shown it on 'dingers' pages.
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The answer is simply - the vehicle OEM's designed their transmitter/receiver to operate at close range, but with high gain equipment its possible to receive the signal at much greater ranges.
Remember the bad guys kit isn't about "normal" operability, its about gaming the technology.
I've not seen the kit myself, but I suspect it even has a function to enable drive by scanning for likely targets - so you can cruise a street and ID a likely target without having to walk up driveways and check for a keyless vehicle by looking in the window...
The scuzzbags doing this aren't technically savvy btw - the clever people are the ones building this stuff. In the same way as you don't understand how your mobile phone is designed or constructed, they are just users of off the shelf technology for a purpose.
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So can you get the keyless turned off altogether does anyone know?
And if you can does that then stop the possibility of this kind of repeater theft altogether?
Another thought- I may be buying one which has keyless, I wonder if I could get the dealer to turn it off ready for me to collect it?
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If I remember correctly you can either do the doors but not the boot, or everything but then you have to hold the key next to the steering column
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So can you get the keyless turned off altogether does anyone know?
And if you can does that then stop the possibility of this kind of repeater theft altogether?
Another thought- I may be buying one which has keyless, I wonder if I could get the dealer to turn it off ready for me to collect it?
If I remember correctly you can either do the doors but not the boot, or everything but then you have to hold the key next to the steering column
Link to another forum but take a look on this thread for how to disable keyless with obdeleven. Also mentions the boot locking.
https://www.vwroc.com/forums/topic/30978-how-to-disable-kessy/
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Can I ask where these “facts” can be found? Sounds like near field communication technology might be better named far field technology. I am prepared to be educated, but the thought that this feature could be so radically flawed is disturbing.
NFC is called so due to the power involved. Add a simple circuit with an amplifier, a few filters and a large enough power source you can re-transmit any frequency for miles.
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Can I ask where these “facts” can be found? Sounds like near field communication technology might be better named far field technology. I am prepared to be educated, but the thought that this feature could be so radically flawed is disturbing.
NFC is called so due to the power involved. Add a simple circuit with an amplifier, a few filters and a large enough power source you can re-transmit any frequency for miles.
It’s picking up the signal from 25m that I struggle with.
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Some proper technical description here:
https://eprint.iacr.org/2010/332.pdf
Yes, the year 2010....nine years ago.
I also read some other technical articles that basically say that short of signal blocking or disabling it, there is no technical solution to relay attacks.
The next generation solution.... mobile device (aka "phone") based "keys" that do not transmit over unsecured airwaves, but instead talk to your car over the internet... (I can hear the Luddites screaming now!). Bosch already have a packaged solution ready to roll...
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How about a simple solution, a physical device shaped individually to each car, lets call it a "key" :whistle:
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So can you get the keyless turned off altogether does anyone know?
And if you can does that then stop the possibility of this kind of repeater theft altogether?
Another thought- I may be buying one which has keyless, I wonder if I could get the dealer to turn it off ready for me to collect it?
If I remember correctly you can either do the doors but not the boot, or everything but then you have to hold the key next to the steering column
Link to another forum but take a look on this thread for how to disable keyless with obdeleven. Also mentions the boot locking.
https://www.vwroc.com/forums/topic/30978-how-to-disable-kessy/
so exactly what I said
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Jesus!! Buy a Faraday pouch and stop worrying about something that may never happen! People wouldn't get out of bed if you weighed up all the dangers that might happen during a typical day. I've got better things to worry about than my car maybe possibly could be never being stolen. What do I pay my car insurance for??
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Thanks-I cant say I like the sound of all this!!
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Jesus!! But a Faraday pouch and stop worrying about something that may never happen! People wouldn't get out of bed if you weighed up all the dangers that might happen during a typical day. I've got better things to worry about than my car maybe possibly could be never being stolen. What do I pay my car insurance for??
Have you ever had a car stolen? I have had 2 nicked over the years,its not quite as simple as that.
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Yes I have as it happens thank you. I just can't see the point in worrying about something that may never happen. Taking simple preventative steps like a cheap 5 quid pouch will stop relay theft. At the end of the day if the raggy lads want to steal a car then they will.
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Fair enough, I absolutely hated it both times, I just cant feel as relaxed about it as you do!
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Luckily having keyless/KESSY is no longer that much of a security risk on the Golf 7.5, because it can be disabled. Lock the car with the fob, then within 5 seconds press the keyless button/sensor on the door handle. That switches off the keyless-entry system until the next time you unlock the car with the fob. Perfect for when leaving a 7.5 overnight or if in a particularly vulnerable place.
Shame the keyless disable system doesn't work on my Mk7.Just tried your method there, just in case it might work but no chance.
I thought this was the case too, but I was on VWROC at the weekend, and some MK7 owners have said it works on their cars...
https://www.vwroc.com/forums/topic/31307-can-you-dissable-kessy/
:huh:
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This makes a lot of sense, simplest of ideas but they are always the best ideas :smiley:
https://youtu.be/U9IhrMExnzM
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I can't watch any videos with that clown in them but 117 euros is day light robbery for that.
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Why don't they use biometrics on the door handle? So you register, say, up to six thumb prints with the car and only those thumb prints can open the car. Same as unlocking your iPhone.
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Why don't they use biometrics on the door handle? So you register, say, up to six thumb prints with the car and only those thumb prints can open the car. Same as unlocking your iPhone.
One possible future I guess, but finger print readers struggle with grease and the outside of a car is a dirty place covered in road film. Likely as not you'd not get in.
The next thing is likely to be using your mobile device as a key. The tech is there now, so just another ten years and the car manufacturers will stop using a vulnerable security system and replace it with something more secure.
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This makes a lot of sense, simplest of ideas but they are always the best ideas :smiley:
https://youtu.be/U9IhrMExnzM
That’s the technology Mercedes started putting in their keys late last year. A nice simple solution but personally I like the reassurance of being able to switch off the keyless each time I leave the Golf and instantly be able to check it, where as on that system it takes a few minutes to deactivate the key.