GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk7 => Topic started by: Jeffers40 on 02 August 2018, 08:16
-
Hi Guys, I've recently bought a Clubsport Edition 40 :evil: awesome wee car so far and really enjoying driving it.
I have a question on the overboost feature though as nothing I've read actually explains how it works in detail. Everything I have read just says it works for 10 seconds then it has a 10 second break before it is available again. You very rarely accelerate for 10 second flat so if you use it for say a 5 second burst, use the brakes, fly round a bend and then plant it again do you have another 5 seconds worth of overboost to use up before it takes a breather or is that your lot till the 10 second break is up. Or does it act like a running total, use 5 seconds of overboost, gain 3 seconds while negotiating the bend and then you have 8 seconds when coming out the other side and so on.
Or am I just thinking about this way too much :rolleyes: :laugh:
In practice it's quite hard to tell what it is doing with the overboost when going for a spirited drive around the back roads near me as you end up going very fast if you are keeping your foot to the floor for that long :evil:
-
Keep testing and keep us posted! As you say, only those on the track have half a chance of commenting really.
-
I would guess that when you kick down hard (probably through the throttle gate (that notch you feel at the bottom of the pedal travel which is also used to override the speed limiter and maybe get kickdown on DSG boxes) it toggles the "over boost" map on a 10 second timer. (I say "over boost map" but from what I've read, actually the normal map is "under boost" and "over boost" is actually just the normal map for R/Cupra/S3 installations of the same powertrain).
Whether lifting your foot back through the gate on the throttle toggles it back off and resets the 10 second timer? I don't know - it could well do - would be an easy condition for the ECU to test and use.
Interesting to know if anyone has played with this on a rolling road/dyno.
(I'm just interested in knowing technical stuff in case you all hadn't figured it out - engineer's curious mind!)
-
From observations, it does not hold a "memory" of the over-boost, so it's not as if lifting your foot before the 10" results in a limited amount of time that you can re-use it. It practically resets itself with every lift, so you can have OB (over-boost) for say 8", lift, and immediately repeat. If you see the boost gauge showing anything over 2bar (that's incl. atmospheric) it's in OB. Standard boost values should be below 2bar, OB is up to 2.2 (it's that extra 0.2bar we are talking about).
However, after extensive testing when I had the Jb4 and logged what boost the ECU wants to make under various scenarios it does seem to have a mind on its own. Sometimes it will come on before you even reach the end of the pedal travel, others you've gone as far as hitting the kick-down switch but it will only make standard boost. Maybe it's load dependent (how much power you ask under which road conditions) but it is definitely not consistent. What is also certain is that it comes on completely un-noticed, you don't a kick forward or anything, it's practically impossible to say if it's on or off without looking at data.
One of the (actually the single) most irritating thing about the car (as stock). Thankfully a remap takes care of that marketing crap and gives you full power at all times :wink:
-
Interesting to know if anyone has played with this on a rolling road/dyno.
BMS dyno-ed a CS with OB on and off. The bhp difference with OB off (or at least with their foot well away from the kick-down switch) was less than 10bhp iirc, nothing close to the advertised 25. I can confirm that from my own experience (cross comparing boost and acceleration figures with the "brother" cars) the car drives as a 280-290 one most of the time.
-
Isn't even in the OB map (or the standard) the amount of boost limited depending on gear, revs and maybe speed too?
Its more complex than a straight on or off?
-
Isn't even in the OB map (or the standard) the amount of boost limited depending on gear, revs and maybe speed too?
Its more complex than a straight on or off?
Nobody knows exactly how it's coded in the ECU map and which prerequisites it may have to come on and off. Even tuners simply over-write the relevant stock maps they don't alter single values so it's anyone's guess. What has been shown is that the car usually gives you the extra power at most times, even if you're not "going for it" but there are also times that it will make only "standard boost". Thing is the gap between standard and OB when you're pushing it is much smaller than VW claims.
-
A lot of VW hype about "special timed OB" and making it not a FWD Golf-R...
-
A lot of VW hype about "special timed OB" and making it not a FWD Golf-R...
:wink:
A ton of marketing crap to ensure the R will not lose its flagship status, which I frankly never understood. The R's appeal is the AWD period which you won't get with any other performance Golf, it's certainly not the sharp looks or focused character.
That been said, a (mechanically identical to Clubsport) 5dr Cupra is slightly faster than a 5dr R once rolling so I can maybe see the need to keep the two Golfs apart, under ALL circumstances.
Or... considering the car makes closer to 290bhp most of the time, at least make sure the "official" figures suggest so :whistle:
-
Cheers for the replies, I certainly haven't really noticed any spikes or drops in power when driving in real life situations so as you say it's all probably just marketing hype. In reality you probably have full power mode when you want to use it in real life driving situations as you can never be fully on it on the road all of the time.
I'm an engineer too so just curious how these things actually work.
-
The R's appeal is the AWD period which you won't get with any other performance Golf, it's certainly not the sharp looks or focused character.
I wonder, what if VW matched BMW and said you can just add AWD to any model for $$$$$$...
Of course its technically possible, these cars are fully modular.
Golf 1.1 Match AWD :D
-
The R's appeal is the AWD period which you won't get with any other performance Golf, it's certainly not the sharp looks or focused character.
I wonder, what if VW matched BMW and said you can just add AWD to any model for $$$$$$...
Of course its technically possible, these cars are fully modular.
Golf 1.1 Match AWD :D
Completely off-topic but hey...
The thing here is, BMW has a much more extended model range (say of the 3-series) that can satisfy different power needs (320i, 330i, 340i, 320d, 330d, 335d) and yet keep (at worst) a safe 100+bhp deficit compared to the series flagship, so offering AWD is not threatening any M3 or M4 (funnily those aren't even AWD, at least yet!), let alone all the differences in setup and dynamics.
Looking at the Golfs, the first version which confidently steps into the performance class is the GTI. 65bhp and a mere 20Nm down from a R while dynamically - although there are differences - there is not much between them and if anything, the Clubsport was actually a better drive than both. So If a GTI AWD existed, I bet several owners would see the jump to a R un-necessary and for that I don't think it's going to happen soon. Then again, at the pace bhp is increasing currently, AWD will be a necessity sooner or later. If/When that happens, WV would have to differentiate the R a lot more (styling and drive-wise) to keep its flagship status intact.
-
You don't necessarily have to go to an R just because of higher bhp. The PP diff will handle the Rs bhp no problem.
-
You don't necessarily have to go to an R just because of higher bhp. The PP diff will handle the Rs bhp no problem.
And then some... :wink:
https://youtu.be/SGy0wL303dE (https://youtu.be/SGy0wL303dE)
-
An AWD GTi is essentially just an R isn't it ?
The reason I bought the GTi was because it wasn't AWD, makes it more fun to drive rather than just putting your foot flat to the floor and not having to worry about anything. Most high performance cars are now way too fast to drive in a spirited fashion on the road. I'm having way more fun in a lower powered car with traction limitations :evil:
-
You don't necessarily have to go to an R just because of higher bhp. The PP diff will handle the Rs bhp no problem.
And then some... :wink:
https://youtu.be/SGy0wL303dE (https://youtu.be/SGy0wL303dE)
Perhaps not quite the point but it looked really good in silver!
-
You don't necessarily have to go to an R just because of higher bhp. The PP diff will handle the Rs bhp no problem.
The diff can only provide cornering grip (rotational difference between left/right axle) and it does it excellently. For traction and elimination of wheel-spin you need AWD from anything close to 250bhp and above if you want to use all of your power under all circumstances.
-
You don't necessarily have to go to an R just because of higher bhp. The PP diff will handle the Rs bhp no problem.
And then some... :wink:
https://youtu.be/SGy0wL303dE (https://youtu.be/SGy0wL303dE)
Youtube videos are nice but try burying your foot in anything below 4th gear in that car and a TCS light flashing and throttle closing are guaranteed. And that's the best scenario on warm and dry roads, not even speaking about low speed corners or rainy conditions.
-
But that's 1/2 the fun of driving though isn't it ? learning a bit of throttle control and feeding in the power just below the point you loose traction and actually being involved in the driving process rather than just burying the throttle and expecting the car to do everything for you ?
Well it is with me but maybe I'm just getting old :cry: the Xbox playing youth of today just want easy speed, Ok I'll get my zimmer frame now....
-
Hi Jeffers40, all,
I had my CS40 from new and always wondered about this same thing, the 'power meter' thing doesn't help as it only goes as high as the 'underboost', whatever mode the car is in or whatever you are doing to the throttle!!
As Scanesare says watching the boost (although difficult o do whilst driving) is the best way.
I do wonder what the power meter on an "R", Clubsport S or a mapped CS does though, and how high it goes.
Anyway hope you love the car as much as I love mine! :grin:
Jason.
-
I don't think I ever got the Power dial to show anything more than the standard boost power of 195kw, or if it did I wasn't watching :grin: I suspect R and CSS should show 220-228kw (as advertised).
It's easier to check the max boost figure (OB mode) as that occurs if you bury your foot in 4th gear with 3K rpm in, even at legal speeds (that's a max load situation). Max power on the other hand comes in say 4th gear going WOT at around 5500-6000 by which point you're travelling pretty fast to be focusing on anything else other than road ahead, a passenger or a cam can be of help in that case. As such I haven't bothered much with what the power dial shows on my mapped CS but i will check it as i'm just curious.
It's worth noting also that boost shows the ECU commanded boost, not what the car is actually making. For those familiar with VCDS, that's the same figure as the "boost pressure, specified" channel not "boost pressure, actual". Normally, "specified" and "actual" (esp. on stock cars) are fairly close but on tuned cars they can vary a lot. Stage 1 cars will typically see a max boost figure of 2.6bar (1.6 absolute) when flooring it in 4th gear 3K rpm, an increase of +0.4bar compared to stock boost (in OB mode).
-
But that's 1/2 the fun of driving though isn't it ? learning a bit of throttle control and feeding in the power just below the point you loose traction and actually being involved in the driving process rather than just burying the throttle and expecting the car to do everything for you ?
Well it is with me but maybe I'm just getting old :cry: the Xbox playing youth of today just want easy speed, Ok I'll get my zimmer frame now....
Heaven forbid!
You'd be burnt at the stake on certain forums for that sort of attitude! Or whatever the modern equivalent of that is, forum lynch mob ?
Some days my Clubsport seems to feel like a scalded cat and other days it feels a bit sluggish in the low to medium range so I think there is definitely a pair of maps injected into the ECU. One being the original Leon Cupra 265PS map and the other being the 290PS Cupra map but where the changeover between them is would be anyone's guess as I've never felt a step in performance.
I've accelerated out of fast roundabouts onto dual carriageways plenty of times before and would say, having owned an R and a GTI PP, sometimes there's definitely more than 265PS and sometimes there's definitely less than 290PS. More noticeable to me in quickish road use is the torque difference between to two maps because the 265PS map feels less torquey than the PP 230PS map but the days the car is in scalded cat mode it's easily as quick as my R was.
-
@scanesare - out of interest what map do you have and what are the options for the CS ?
-
Heaven forbid!
You'd be burnt at the stake on certain forums for that sort of attitude! Or whatever the modern equivalent of that is, forum lynch mob ?
Some days my Clubsport seems to feel like a scalded cat and other days it feels a bit sluggish in the low to medium range so I think there is definitely a pair of maps injected into the ECU. One being the original Leon Cupra 265PS map and the other being the 290PS Cupra map but where the changeover between them is would be anyone's guess as I've never felt a step in performance.
I've accelerated out of fast roundabouts onto dual carriageways plenty of times before and would say, having owned an R and a GTI PP, sometimes there's definitely more than 265PS and sometimes there's definitely less than 290PS. More noticeable to me in quickish road use is the torque difference between to two maps because the 265PS map feels less torquey than the PP 230PS map but the days the car is in scalded cat mode it's easily as quick as my R was.
I know what you mean about the occasional sluggish feeling, would be good to just have 290PS all the time as I think that is a good figure for this car as it feels enough in scalded cat mode. Any plug and play remaps out there that give you this all the time ?
-
@scanesare - out of interest what map do you have and what are the options for the CS ?
I currently have a map from a local Swedish tuner which I'm not entirely happy with and will soon switch to either APR or REVO after enough digging and collecting info on their maps and because they are convenient options from a distance/dealer availability point of view. Almost every tuner must be offering a CS map these days and to most they would all feel similar I think. It's when you start to look at various ECU/engine parameters under various conditions that you notice some differences on each tuner's approach of making the extra power.
I know what you mean about the occasional sluggish feeling, would be good to just have 290PS all the time as I think that is a good figure for this car as it feels enough in scalded cat mode. Any plug and play remaps out there that give you this all the time ?
I very much doubt the sluggish feeling is down to the car being in overboost or not, the difference is really very small between the two modes. It's all down to being in the right gear and rpm for the scenario in question, the DSG's laziness in D and even in Manual mode sometimes, coupled with VW's infamous throttle response can make the car vary its response significantly. For the throttle response, a pedal box is your best best and as to the DSG, at certain cases the only way to keep the car on its toes and have it launch forward immediately is to keep it in S mode (as much as I usually hate it). I have repeatedly confirmed this by driving the same way around the same spots in D, S and manual and realizing the car gave me its best in S.
What do you mean by plug n play? All tuners flash via OBD these days, no messing with the actual ECU enclosure (cracking open, soldering etc.) If you mean something that is completely removable there's the Jb1/4 which bypasses boost, AFR etc. signals without modifying anything on the actual ECU map.
-
By plug and play I meant with a hand unit via the OBD socket. I know the days of soldering a chip into the ECU are gone but some still need tampering with especially on some BMWs
Also my car is a manual, don’t like DSG type gearboxes, prefer a good old gear stick and 3 pedals. Told you I was old Skool....
-
Another question, on a manual car does the switch on full throttle actually do anything ?
-
Overboost only works in S mode and gear 3 and above, 10s maximum. It also works using LC.
This according to german forums. And i notice a difference when overtaking in 3.rd and 4:th with the transmission in S VS D.
-
Overboost only works in S mode and gear 3 and above, 10s maximum. It also works using LC.
This according to german forums. And i notice a difference when overtaking in 3.rd and 4:th with the transmission in S VS D.
Welcome!
(not based in Skåne by any chance? :tongue:)
-
Overboost only works in S mode and gear 3 and above, 10s maximum. It also works using LC.
This according to german forums. And i notice a difference when overtaking in 3.rd and 4:th with the transmission in S VS D.
What about when the DSG is in manual mode using the paddles?? Do I get the extra bhp??
-
If you have the transmission in S before you switch to manual, then you get overboost.
-
Overboost only works in S mode and gear 3 and above, 10s maximum. It also works using LC.
This according to german forums. And i notice a difference when overtaking in 3.rd and 4:th with the transmission in S VS D.
Welcome!
(not based in Skåne by any chance? :tongue:)
Nope, further North.
-
Overboost only works in S mode and gear 3 and above, 10s maximum. It also works using LC.
This according to german forums. And i notice a difference when overtaking in 3.rd and 4:th with the transmission in S VS D.
Welcome!
(not based in Skåne by any chance? :tongue:)
Nope, further North.
Had to ask, still to meet another CS owner down here...
-
If you have the transmission in S before you switch to manual, then you get overboost.
One to try out shortly....!
-
Overboost only works in S mode and gear 3 and above, 10s maximum. It also works using LC.
This according to german forums. And i notice a difference when overtaking in 3.rd and 4:th with the transmission in S VS D.
Hi SWEGTI,
What is the "LC" you mention?
Thanks!
Jason.
-
Overboost only works in S mode and gear 3 and above, 10s maximum. It also works using LC.
This according to german forums. And i notice a difference when overtaking in 3.rd and 4:th with the transmission in S VS D.
Hi SWEGTI,
What is the "LC" you mention?
Thanks!
Jason.
I guessed launch control but could be wrong.
-
Overboost only works in S mode and gear 3 and above, 10s maximum. It also works using LC.
This according to german forums. And i notice a difference when overtaking in 3.rd and 4:th with the transmission in S VS D.
Hi SWEGTI,
What is the "LC" you mention?
Thanks!
Jason.
I guessed launch control but could be wrong.
Yes, I’d guess that too!
-
Overboost only works in S mode and gear 3 and above, 10s maximum. It also works using LC.
This according to german forums. And i notice a difference when overtaking in 3.rd and 4:th with the transmission in S VS D.
Hi SWEGTI,
What is the "LC" you mention?
Thanks!
Jason.
I guessed launch control but could be wrong.
Correct :-)
-
Ahhhh yes makes sense.
Mine is manual so this didn't occur to me!
I was playing with my 'sport' and 'custom' modes recently and using the boost reading (which shows demand boost - thanks scanesare :wink: ) I found that the car only demands the full 2.2bar in sport mode, in custom mode with all the settings set to the highest performance, it will not go that high, only to the same 265ps as ECO mode.
The point of that was that I was trying to get the full performance but with the soundaktor turn off, but you can't do that.
I like the natural sound of the car and always found the soundaktor to sound like an old beetle or riced-up Impreza, but I guess I just have to stop listening when I press the loud pedal and enjoy it with all my other senses :cool:
Thanks guys.
J.
-
The point of that was that I was trying to get the full performance but with the soundaktor turn off, but you can't do that.
I like the natural sound of the car and always found the soundaktor to sound like an old beetle or riced-up Impreza, but I guess I just have to stop listening when I press the loud pedal and enjoy it with all my other senses :cool:
5 minute job to unplug the soundaktor if you don't like it or turn it off electronically with OBD11. If you haven't got one there is usually someone helpful on here who will offer for beer tokens.
-
Ahhhh yes makes sense.
Mine is manual so this didn't occur to me!
I was playing with my 'sport' and 'custom' modes recently and using the boost reading (which shows demand boost - thanks scanesare :wink: ) I found that the car only demands the full 2.2bar in sport mode, in custom mode with all the settings set to the highest performance, it will not go that high, only to the same 265ps as ECO mode.
The point of that was that I was trying to get the full performance but with the soundaktor turn off, but you can't do that.
I like the natural sound of the car and always found the soundaktor to sound like an old beetle or riced-up Impreza, but I guess I just have to stop listening when I press the loud pedal and enjoy it with all my other senses :cool:
Thanks guys.
J.
It is true and very upsetting that despite the freedom to mess with settings in Custom mode, some features always remain an exclusive privilege of the Sport mode, even if you went and set everything to Sport in Custom. Launch Control is one of them, it doesn't get activated in Custom mode, and the over-boost is another.
Truth is I don't mind Sport mode so much in terms of suspension, DCC does a good job even in Sport and the CS is anyway a bit stiffer than a GTI even in Comfort so the dampening does not vary as much, but the heavier steering and the Soundaktor are more of an issue. I've coded out the Soundaktor so I only have to put up with the sport steering which is sometimes ok. Still, why you should not be able to get the full power in Custom when you set Drive to Sport is a puzzle, what's the point of offering the Sport settings in Custom mode? Personally, I've also dealt with it with remapping (all the power and then some more all of the time) so the only thing that remains "Sport mode exclusive" is the Launch Control with which I very very rarely bother.
Since you detest the Soundaktor as much as most people do, I strongly recommend If you are not into messing with settings that would justify an OBDEleven purchase, to search for someone nearby with the tool and ask them to code it out for you. It's a 2min job.
PS. Boost readings include atmospheric, it's making (requesting) 1.2bar at over-boost, but you knew that :wink:
-
I've been running around in Individual with everything set to sport apart from the steering as I find the sport steering like treacle, looks like I'll have to put up with it from now on if I want all the horses :sad:
I actually quite like the Soundaktor :whistle: makes a throaty throttle body type sound which I quite like. Oops did I just say that out loud :laugh: :embarrassed:
-
Soundaktor unplugged!! Lets see how I like it now.
I don't have DCC and being a manual, no LC, so when I'm travelling for work its in ECO (expenses so more money for me :cool:) all the rest of the time its in Sport as I want all the ponies available and that I paid (handsomely) for!! :laugh:
scanesare - 100% agree with you, I'm too scared to map it though, did that on a previous car and melted 2 pistons - so now I'm far to scared to even contemplate that on my pride and joy!
Jeffers40 - I never noticed a difference in the steering, guess I wasn't paying attention! To begin with I hated the soundaktor, then I didn't mind it to much, then I quite liked it but over all I think I prefer the real metal-made noises.
Got a new dilemma with badges that is messing with my mind now!! I'll chuck a picture up to see what every one thinks.
Cheers all,
J
-
I unplugged mine for a while but missed it so plugged it back in. It's too loud in Sport though so I tend to leave the car in Normal most of the time, the pedalbox more than compensates :evil:
-
I unplugged mine for a while but missed it so plugged it back in. It's too loud in Sport though so I tend to leave the car in Normal most of the time, the pedalbox more than compensates :evil:
Not when sport mode unlocks an extra 25bhp...
-
I unplugged mine for a while but missed it so plugged it back in. It's too loud in Sport though so I tend to leave the car in Normal most of the time, the pedalbox more than compensates :evil:
Not when sport mode unlocks an extra 25bhp...
I was referring to responsiveness rather than power, I'm not in a CS :rolleyes:
-
I unplugged mine for a while but missed it so plugged it back in. It's too loud in Sport though so I tend to leave the car in Normal most of the time, the pedalbox more than compensates :evil:
Not when sport mode unlocks an extra 25bhp...
I was referring to responsiveness rather than power, I'm not in a CS :rolleyes:
I was leg pulling...
-
Ha, had mine over a year and from reading the above I've still not experienced the extra power. :embarrassed: I better get it into full sport mode out and try it. :evil:
-
Ha, had mine over a year and from reading the above I've still not experienced the extra power. :embarrassed: I better get it into full sport mode out and try it. :evil:
Me too, coming up for 2 years in Oct :embarrassed:
-
I unplugged mine for a while but missed it so plugged it back in. It's too loud in Sport though so I tend to leave the car in Normal most of the time, the pedalbox more than compensates :evil:
Not when sport mode unlocks an extra 25bhp...
I was referring to responsiveness rather than power, I'm not in a CS :rolleyes:
I was leg pulling...
I did think that, sorry, my reply was rather clumsy, I'm blaming it on hunger as I was still waiting for my dinner :laugh:
-
I unplugged mine for a while but missed it so plugged it back in. It's too loud in Sport though so I tend to leave the car in Normal most of the time, the pedalbox more than compensates :evil:
Not when sport mode unlocks an extra 25bhp...
I was referring to responsiveness rather than power, I'm not in a CS :rolleyes:
I was leg pulling...
I did think that, sorry, my reply was rather clumsy, I'm blaming it on hunger as I was still waiting for my dinner :laugh:
👍