GolfGTIforum.co.uk
General => General discussion => Topic started by: DeuxCentCinq on 24 October 2003, 17:49
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I've been reading a few topics on here and have noticed that people disagree on the principles of torque. More specifically, how it's calculated and therefore how to express the units.
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Christ, we're not still banging on about this are we..?!
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I thought that the confusing *ahem* discussions the other day might have left some people unclear as to the correct definition.
I was hoping that this would be a way to help everyone to understand.
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thats a very french sounding name youve got..............................................?
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/me can smell garlic
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thats a very french sounding name youve got..............................................?
Yes, it is. However, I don't see why that should have any bearing on this topic...
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Judging by the number of votes so far, it seems that no-one really give a sh!t
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Judging by the number of votes so far, it seems that no-one really give a sh!t
Thanks for your constructive comment, I'm sure that it's really helped people to understand things more clearly.
Since when discussing cars (whether they be French OR German) the topic of torque will probably figure in the conversation somewhere it would be nice if everyone knew the correct definition.
Some of the people on here really have no clue and I would imagine that their incorrect definitions will unfortunately be picked up by newbies and thus the ignorance is spread.
I would hope that one of the aims of this forum is to provide an accurate source of information for Golf GTi owners. It is in the interest of every forum member to check other peoples information and correct them where necessary - I was just trying to get the ball rolling.
Yes, perhaps a poll was not the best way of raising this point, just thought it might highlight a fundamental gap in the knowledge of a couple of rather arrogant people, and thus teach newbies hoping to learn something, who and who not, to listen to. It might have the added bonus of teaching the arrogant ones to keep their opinions to themselves unless they are positive that they are not giving misleading information.
I expect that this post will probably receive some abuse, after all I drive French cars...
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OK mate calm down its only a bit of banter. My point is that it doesnt really matter whether its lbs per foot or lbs X foot or whatever. Nobody is going to hear a figure and picture a square foot and imagine x lbs on top of it or whatever and think... "wow thats a lot of torque", all they know is relative figures one versus the other, knowing that a higher number is better, so ppl dont really need to know the exact definition unless theyre sitting a physics A level or something.
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If people only cared about that figures rather than the units, then why did I see so many posts where people argued that their definition was the correct one ?!
I would say that it does matter, for example:
If a wheel bolt is particularly difficult to undo, i.e. it's very tight. You would need to increase to torque that you're applying in order to undo it.
If we say that the force you can supply is constant i.e. you always apply the same force using your muscles or body weight etc. Then how do you increase the torque ?
If we assume this definition of torque :
Torque = Force/Distance
Then this suggests that to increase torque you need to DECREASE the distance.
This is clearly INCORRECT as we all should know that using a longer bar will help us undo the wheel.
Everyone knows that a longer bar (greater distance) will help us to undo the stubborn bolt, but it appears that not everyone knows that what is actually happening when you do this is that the torque is increased.
The CORRECT definition is :
Torque = Force * Distance
From this formula you can see that to increase torque you can increase either the force or the distance or both.
The SI units are :
Force is measured in Newtons (N)
Distance is measured in metres (m)
Therefore the units of torque are :
Newton Metres or Nm if you prefer.
In the UK we still sometimes use imperial units, in this case Pounds (lb) and Feet (ft), so you might see the units of torque written like this :
lbft
For goodness sake, if anyone wants proof you'll probably find it's written on your torque wrench ! (I take it everyone know's what one of those is)
The units are NEVER, EVER any of these:
N/m
Newtons per metre
Nm-1
lb/ft
Pounds per foot
lbft1
If you see any of them used then the person that wrote it is wrong.
Here's the correct description:
The torque generated about an axis is defined as the product of the component of the force perpendicular to the axis and the perpendicular distance between the line of action of the force and the axis.
(For those that didn't understand it the first time, "product" means multiplied by)
Perhaps I should have put this post up to start with, I just hoped that the first time I provided the description coupled with this poll some people might have put 2 and 2 together !
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While we're at it...
Pressure = Force / Area
The units are therefore :
N/m2 (Newtons per square metre)
I think I'll leave it there :P
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yeah leave it there as you can see by the results of the poll i dont think people give a toss, were all here for 1 reason that being the car that will take over the name of the peoples car 'golf' will out sell beetles(hey not knocking the air cooled brigade cause ive been there and done that) along with the mk5 the golf will be the peoples car and the phrase GTI is why were here, we know roughly all the book figures etc and we dont need some garlic munghing bagette driver tellin us the is and out of torque, all we like to do is discuss them, tune em, polish and drive em thank you enough said mr frenchy sounding name man!
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DeuxCentCinq wow cheers for all that sh!te mate!
Just printed a version off, should get me to sleep much quiker tonight.
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If people only cared about that figures rather than the units, then why did I see so many posts where people argued that their definition was the correct one ?!
I would say that it does matter, for example:
If a wheel bolt is particularly difficult to undo, i.e. it's very tight. You would need to increase to torque that you're applying in order to undo it.
If we say that the force you can supply is constant i.e. you always apply the same force using your muscles or body weight etc. Then how do you increase the torque ?
If we assume this definition of torque :
Torque = Force/Distance
Then this suggests that to increase torque you need to DECREASE the distance.
This is clearly INCORRECT as we all should know that using a longer bar will help us undo the wheel.
Everyone knows that a longer bar (greater distance) will help us to undo the stubborn bolt, but it appears that not everyone knows that what is actually happening when you do this is that the torque is increased.
The CORRECT definition is :
Torque = Force * Distance
From this formula you can see that to increase torque you can increase either the force or the distance or both.
The SI units are :
Force is measured in Newtons (N)
Distance is measured in metres (m)
Therefore the units of torque are :
Newton Metres or Nm if you prefer.
In the UK we still sometimes use imperial units, in this case Pounds (lb) and Feet (ft), so you might see the units of torque written like this :
lbft
For goodness sake, if anyone wants proof you'll probably find it's written on your torque wrench ! (I take it everyone know's what one of those is)
The units are NEVER, EVER any of these:
N/m
Newtons per metre
Nm-1
lb/ft
Pounds per foot
lbft1
If you see any of them used then the person that wrote it is wrong.
Here's the correct description:
The torque generated about an axis is defined as the product of the component of the force perpendicular to the axis and the perpendicular distance between the line of action of the force and the axis.
(For those that didn't understand it the first time, "product" means multiplied by)
Perhaps I should have put this post up to start with, I just hoped that the first time I provided the description coupled with this poll some people might have put 2 and 2 together !
You really are a sad f**k*r aren't you?
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What the f*ck is this Sh*t?
Torque is cheap or so they said in ww2
Who really gives a sh*t?
Only the nerdy c*nts obviously.
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If you don't like my misleading posts (plenty of people do) then go form your own forum for queers :-*
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If you don't like my misleading posts (plenty of people do) then go form your own forum for queers :-*
- Only if you promise to stop being wrong :P
Perhaps if my username had been something like 'BratwurstSaugen' then you (in particular) may have been a little more receptive. ;D
Not once have I argued the merits of a 205 or any other French car nor have I put down your beloved Golfs, however you still appear to have some sort of problem?
Don't bother replying to this as I can already guess your response, no doubt it will contain some sort of homophobic theme, methinks the lady doth protest too much....
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Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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If you don't like my misleading posts (plenty of people do) then go form your own forum for queers :-*
- Only if you promise to stop being wrong :P
Perhaps if my username had been something like 'BratwurstSaugen' then you (in particular) may have been a little more receptive. ;D
Not once have I argued the merits of a 205 or any other French car nor have I put down your beloved Golfs, however you still appear to have some sort of problem?
Don't bother replying to this as I can already guess your response, no doubt it will contain some sort of homophobic theme, methinks the lady doth protest too much....
Thanks mate, i think i'll go back to sleep now :-*
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give me a bell to wake me up when hes gone!
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Thats if i haven't died from boredom :o
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Remember that old vegetarian teacher from school with the 2CV who liked to show of his ability in foreign languages?
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Sorry, guess I was reminded of the loud-mouth from school that wouldn't back down until he was proved utterly wrong in public. It needed the boring, long-winded explanation to get the message through the thick skulls of some people.
If you don't like it, don't read it.
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Sorry, guess I was reminded of the loud-mouth from school that wouldn't back down until he was proved utterly wrong in public. It needed the boring, long-winded explanation to get the message through the thick skulls of some people.
If you don't like it, don't read it.
NO IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT GO ON ANOTHER SITE, HAS THAT GOT THE MESSAGE THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL?
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Why ?
I haven't put down Golfs, I've been thinking about getting one, this site might prove useful for research.
What do you expect when you post incorrect information ? - that no-ones gonna correct you ?!
If I was coming on here for some crappy French vs German car argument then I'd understand your problem, but I haven't.
I suppose you'd take offence if I put an opinion on the Optimax vs Ultimate thread as well ?
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" I've been thinking about getting one"
How about you go away until you have a golf?
OR
Do a sponsored shut up for children in need?
I'd give you a tenner if you encased your fingers in concrete for a week! ;)
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Why ?
I haven't put down Golfs, I've been thinking about getting one, this site might prove useful for research.
What do you expect when you post incorrect information ? - that no-ones gonna correct you ?!
If I was coming on here for some crappy French vs German car argument then I'd understand your problem, but I haven't.
I suppose you'd take offence if I put an opinion on the Optimax vs Ultimate thread as well ?
Not really no, you are rude, arrogant and have contributed nothing to this site. If you want to contribute then just get on with it without calling anyone thick or anything else.
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Not really no, you are rude, arrogant and have contributed nothing to this site. If you want to contribute then just get on with it without calling anyone thick or anything else.
Pot calling the kettle black or what ?!! :o
Compared to you I am courteous and humble ! Perhaps you should re-read your own posts, originally I only posted this stuff to try and spread a little knowledge, I've only taken a more arrogant approach since you decided to attack !
How about you stop calling people c-o-c-k boy etc. ?
@ old_boy, bit of a chicken and egg situation really mate, I wouldn't want to get a car without checking with people that already own the car to find out what it's like, and you lot won't accept anyone that hasn't already got one.
If you'd all have let it slide and my post total would probably only be 2 or 3, but some people just can't let it go !
golfvr6 - next time your obviously wrong about something I suggest that you just act a little more maturely and accept it.
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perhaps if you both stopped flirting and f?cked each other we could stop all this bickering!
;D
I'm all for other car owners posting on this thread - if their input is subjective.
It's when it turns into a mud slinging match it becomes boring.
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So let me get thist straight, your quite happy laughing at somebody with zero technical knowledge who sticks neon lights on a Clio RSI, however when somebody actually comes up with a correct technical definition for something you laugh at them too?
This is a bad advert for VW drivers you know. Maybe we'll post this on the scooby, nissan sx forums and see what they make of you all, they'll think all this is highly amusing.
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you say this is a bad advert for VW drivers - which leads me to assume you tar all with the same brush! however when someone says that "all french cars are crap" they get labeled as an arse for making such a broad brush statement.
Hmmmmm......I'm not sure you want to start making statements like that !!
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Come on boys put the handbags away ::)
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VW Drivers was a bit broad I admit, should I say 'Golf GTI drivers with an online presence'
I don't understand what your trying to say though about the 'all french cars are crap' statement, if you make such a swipe at a large range of automobiles you are bound to be branded an ass as you clearly haven't got enough informaiton to make such a statement.
However, some of the french cars surely are crap, take most of the 205 range absolute garbage they're slow and they handle terrible they are truely crap. The citroen range is full of crap cars, the BX, the XM etc, horrible ugly nasty pieces of engineering. Some people love them though.
VW has some crap cars too, take the MK2 Polo, it's horrible to drive, body roll from hell, and it's like driving a tin can on wheels, Non GTI's Mk1 and 2 golfs are also nasty cars, admitedly the interiors are better then french cars of a comparable age but thats about it, they too are slow, handle badly, take a look at G/H reg passats these days, most of them have serious rust patches on them and are looking extremely tatty.
The itallians make some unbelievably good cars, Ferrari are owned by Fiat, yes Fiat, and we all know they made the Uno which was scary as a 1.0 I never drove the turbo thank god. The Punto, what a total crock of sh!t.
Then we get to VX/Opel, they made the, wait for it, Nova, and the Corsa and the Astra and the Cavalier. But they also happen to make stonking good engines, the LET and the 16v 2.0 are extremely good engines but the cars they are in are rust bucket sh!t.
Ford make the fiesta, which are great for carrying your ranny tot he shop and back twice a week, but as a drivers a car are lacking in pretty much every way. However ford also make the Escort RS Cosworth, the RS500 and recently the Focus RS, all of which are very good cars.
I needn't carry on with taking a dig at some of Honda's poor efforts of the past, and seat, and even Audi before they reinvented themselves with the A4 and A6 were always a poor 3rd to BMW and Merc.
The problem is that too many people these days don't think about things long enough to actualy make a judgement based on the facts. The lad with the Clio for example probably loves his Clio RSI, and if that makes him happy is it any different to you with your golf or one of the french people with their 205? I doubt it.
Anyway I stand by my previous statement and extend it. And yes i'm sure I want to make statements like that.
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I can confirm that the uno turbo was, indeed, very very scary.
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blah
andy y
Fair comments - but at the end of the day this is a web forum dedicated to Golf Gti's - you've got to expect some banter between fellow owners - against other manufacturers cars (be it legitimate or otherwise).
To keep on harping on here about fairness and equality to all cars is going to fall on deaf ears. (try doing the same down your local boozer with the regulars at the bar - you're gonna get someone not agreeing with your perfect ride)
Take your points to a neutral - not a Gti forum coz your not gonna get balanced redress here.
Unless you want to put up - shut up (or go to another forum - plenty to choose from on the World Wide Interweb)
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I was just finalising some points, which really I believe should put an end to the argument. I dont' really see why all the 205 and golf people have got themselves into this argument to be honest.
They're both 'old skool' cars and really both sets of drivers should be teaming up together against the hoard of saxo's/corsa's with massive body kits and no performance which are currently controlling the car modifying world.
Golfs and 205's aren't that disimilar, neither is better then the other overall. What you should all really do is bulk buy a sh!t load of nitrous, fit turbos to your V6/16v/8v and get down your local track/drag strip with the 205 boys and show the Saxo's/Rice boys what good old 80's designs can do :)
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I was just finalising some points, which really I believe should put an end to the argument. I dont' really see why all the 205 and golf people have got themselves into this argument to be honest.
They're both 'old skool' cars and really both sets of drivers should be teaming up together against the hoard of saxo's/corsa's with massive body kits and no performance which are currently controlling the car modifying world.
Golfs and 205's aren't that disimilar, neither is better then the other overall. What you should all really do is bulk buy a sh!t load of nitrous, fit turbos to your V6/16v/8v and get down your local track/drag strip with the 205 boys and show the Saxo's/Rice boys what good old 80's designs can do
you gotta admit the mans got a point there
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I have a whole lot of love here for you old skool guys, (pugs too), except golfvr6 - He aint getting my love 'cos I know what he's gonna do with it :-\ he just gets a manly handshake!!
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Great words Andy,
Now lets get back to the arguement over which mk of Golf rules the roost.
Definately the mkI.................................
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brakes vs no brakes?
Mk 2 every time!
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Not really no, you are rude, arrogant and have contributed nothing to this site. If you want to contribute then just get on with it without calling anyone thick or anything else.
Pot calling the kettle black or what ?!! :o
Compared to you I am courteous and humble ! Perhaps you should re-read your own posts, originally I only posted this stuff to try and spread a little knowledge, I've only taken a more arrogant approach since you decided to attack !
How about you stop calling people c-o-c-k boy etc. ?
@ old_boy, bit of a chicken and egg situation really mate, I wouldn't want to get a car without checking with people that already own the car to find out what it's like, and you lot won't accept anyone that hasn't already got one.
If you'd all have let it slide and my post total would probably only be 2 or 3, but some people just can't let it go !
golfvr6 - next time your obviously wrong about something I suggest that you just act a little more maturely and accept it.
Just so you don't get the last word Mr. DeuxCentCinq, pot calling the kettle black? well no not really , i have posted over 1800 times on this site and haven't abused anyone until you and your rather silly friends turned up. If you take time to actually read some you will find that i am polite and helpful to other members. Yes i probably am wrong sometimes, but who isn't? I just can't stand arrogant people that come on here just to start trouble and have no interest in contributing to this great site, or maybe WAS a great site. Everyone can have their own opinions, i can't think of any french car i like even a little bit, so what? This is a site for golf gti people so if anyone wants to discuss the great engineering of the french then they can do that on other sites, and they are entitled to do so. Everyone is welcome on this site , as long as they remember what it is, unfortunately certain people have tried (and succeeded) in spoiling the site for the real enthusiasts. I hope this puts an end to this once and for all.
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I'm with you VR6 lets end this nonsence.