GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk7 => Topic started by: GTD184 on 14 January 2017, 07:18
-
After the wife's nightmare Mk7 GTD ownership I have just secured most probably the last UK destined GTi PP in Tornado Red.......Standard car other than DSG, Santiagos and 90% tints. I'm guessing the performance between the GTD and GTI PP is going to be like night and day other than the fuel economy :rolleyes:
This will be my first petrol car since my Mini Cooper S of 2003 and after a long list of high performance diesel cars and 4x4's.
Car is sitting in Germany having been manufactured on 10/01 and was originally destined for Scotland.......thought I got a cracking deal with £7.5k off :wink:
Wife is due to take delivery of fully specced Tiguan R-Line 190 so we will have a car for all seasons :smug:
-
Had a gtd and now have a gti pp, the gtd is surprisingly not that much slower than the gti but the gti doesn't run out of steam at the top end so quickly...the pick up in low revs is very similar....but that said the gti is a more refined and smoother pick , add a pedal box into the mix then the gti feels like it really wants to go.
-
I went from 2013 Gtd back to a Tiguan R Line and am now in a Gti pp. Still running it in for now but it feels more nimble than I remember my gtd being. I must say though I've been reading about everyone needing pedal boxes to make the gti better which unfortunately in my humble opinion is total nonsense. I don't think the standard pedal response is dull and rather like the linear progression rather than a pedal that's on or off. That's just down to personal driving style though.
-
I remember driving my GTI home from the dealer and not being particularly impressed with the feel of the car.
After a few weeks of driving, these feelings didn't go away, and it wasn't until I fitted a pedal box that the car actually felt like I expected a Golf GTI to feel.
Each to their own but I know what camp I'm in.
-
You will miss the torque but not for long, I came from a 3ltr twin turbo derv and once you get used to the power going on and on instead of fizzing out at 4k I wondered why ever I left petrol behind. Every time I get into it I enjoy the drive.
-
I remember driving my GTI home from the dealer and not being particularly impressed with the feel of the car.
After a few weeks of driving, these feelings didn't go away, and it wasn't until I fitted a pedal box that the car actually felt like I expected a Golf GTI to feel.
Each to their own but I know what camp I'm in.
I felt like that too.
My initial thoughts were "this thing should have 258lb ft of torque, so where is it?"
Yes, fine, it felt like 230PS when nailing it but 99% of driving isn't nailing it, 99% of driving is using the torque curve to gain momentum, and that torque felt like it had gone AWOL at anything under 50% pedal depression. My poor legs aren't long enough to keep the pedal buried in the carpet so there was only one answer.
If you have legs like a giraffe or wear deep sea diving boots as leisure wear then you'll never experience a problem with mk7 Golf pedal travel.
If you've got legs like a primate (me) then you'll not be able to live without a PedalBox.
Aside from that a GTI is a truly great and underrated car.
And a GTD is only a whisker behind (plus looks a bit prettier in certain colours when both are on standard wheels to these old eyes).
£7.5k is a pretty remarkable deal though so that'll make the first year's depreciation quite palatable as most dealer deals seem to be in the £6 to £6.5k ballpark. But again, that depends on 'cost to change' if you're part ex'ing as the figures have to balance out somewhere. Oh, and having a close relative at VW can help I guess!
-
Like Mcmaddy I have not found any issue with the GTi, the throttle pedal is only about 6cm from top to the floor (not even the length of my index finger) and the car only produces 20lbft less torque than the GTD, so not sure where the issue some say is. I guess it depends what cars you come from but my last two were a twin Turbo diesel and flat 6 petrol so I should be complaining like mad if the forum chatter about pedal boxes is anything to go by. It seems so varied perhaps VW have a quality control issue with the throttle potentiometer?
-
I have driven three GTIs and two GTDs and they all have the same "dead spot". Pedal box is a must for me
-
sorry for beeing abit thick but what is a pedal box? i have just orderd a gti dsg
gtd184 i think my car would of been built maybe before xmas as it was allready overhere but was the only one left they could find with dcc option i wanted carbon grey but had to go for black i also didnt get a massive amout off as such as i wanted dcc ,tech pack,park pack,performance pack ,santiago,s and 90% tints on the back
i think it was just under 30k WOW i gota be mad
mark
-
sorry for beeing abit thick but what is a pedal box? i have just orderd a gti dsg
gtd184 i think my car would of been built maybe before xmas as it was allready overhere but was the only one left they could find with dcc option i wanted carbon grey but had to go for black i also didnt get a massive amout off as such as i wanted dcc ,tech pack,park pack,performance pack ,santiago,s and 90% tints on the back
i think it was just under 30k WOW i gota be mad
mark
The pedal box is something to make you think your going faster, similar to putting your engine is sport mode on the individual settings.
-
thanks jackie dont these gti,s have some sort of false noise to make them sound better? i think my gtd had it ?
-
The pedal box is something to make you think your going faster, similar to putting your engine is sport mode on the individual settings.
Unfortunately that's completely wrong.
It has nothing to do with going faster or pretending to go faster.
Go jump in an old car with a carb and slack off the throttle cable.
This is the feeling of a MK7 without a Pedalbox.
Tighten up the cable and you have the Pedalbox feeling.
It gets rid of throttle pedal lag at lower pedal depressions. It just makes the pedal more responsive.
If you don'tthink the pedal is unresponsive at light depressions then you'll never need a Pedalbox.
It's purely a tactile thing.
To me it's the difference between a mk2 GTI 8v with K-jet and one with Digifant.
I never did like Digifant and I had at least three of them and drove dozens more.
I've lost count of how many mk7's I've driven and have never been happy with the throttle response on any of them at town speeds or when wanting a quick but not flat out burst of acceleration in top gear.
-
The pedal box is something to make you think your going faster, similar to putting your engine is sport mode on the individual settings.
Unfortunately that's completely wrong.
It has nothing to do with going faster or pretending to go faster.
Go jump in an old car with a carb and slack off the throttle cable.
This is the feeling of a MK7 without a Pedalbox.
Tighten up the cable and you have the Pedalbox feeling.
It gets rid of throttle pedal lag at lower pedal depressions. It just makes the pedal more responsive.
If you don'tthink the pedal is unresponsive at light depressions then you'll never need a Pedalbox.
It's purely a tactile thing.
To me it's the difference between a mk2 GTI 8v with K-jet and one with Digifant.
I never did like Digifant and I had at least three of them and drove dozens more.
I've lost count of how many mk7's I've driven and have never been happy with the throttle response on any of them at town speeds or when wanting a quick but not flat out burst of acceleration in top gear.
Suprised you say I'm wrong, quote from DTUK Pedal box website
The Pedal Box sits between the sensor and the control module, intercepting that signal and altering it in order to shorten and improve the response time. This works in the same manner as many manufacturer fitted ‘Sport’ buttons, reducing the amount of pedal travel required to achieve ‘Throttle Wide Open’, allowing you to access the engines full potential
So same as the sport mode then, and designed to do what you can do with your right foot.
Your carb example is not accurate I'm afraid, if you slacken off the throttle cable you don't get correct WOT. On a modern car like the GTi you get WOT at full pedal depression with or without a pedal box.
-
I really can't believe the merits of using a pedal box is being debated, and by people who haven't actually tried one! :rolleyes:
Listen to your uncle Exonian, he knows of what he speaks :smiley:
-
thanks jackie dont these gti,s have some sort of false noise to make them sound better? i think my gtd had it ?
yes they do, but its an easy thing to disconnect, or turn down in the settings menu, depending on year.
-
The pedal box is something to make you think your going faster, similar to putting your engine is sport mode on the individual settings.
Unfortunately that's completely wrong.
It has nothing to do with going faster or pretending to go faster.
Go jump in an old car with a carb and slack off the throttle cable.
This is the feeling of a MK7 without a Pedalbox.
Tighten up the cable and you have the Pedalbox feeling.
It gets rid of throttle pedal lag at lower pedal depressions. It just makes the pedal more responsive.
If you don'tthink the pedal is unresponsive at light depressions then you'll never need a Pedalbox.
It's purely a tactile thing.
To me it's the difference between a mk2 GTI 8v with K-jet and one with Digifant.
I never did like Digifant and I had at least three of them and drove dozens more.
I've lost count of how many mk7's I've driven and have never been happy with the throttle response on any of them at town speeds or when wanting a quick but not flat out burst of acceleration in top gear.
Suprised you say I'm wrong, quote from DTUK Pedal box website
The Pedal Box sits between the sensor and the control module, intercepting that signal and altering it in order to shorten and improve the response time. This works in the same manner as many manufacturer fitted ‘Sport’ buttons, reducing the amount of pedal travel required to achieve ‘Throttle Wide Open’, allowing you to access the engines full potential
So same as the sport mode then, and designed to do what you can do with your right foot.
Your carb example is not accurate I'm afraid, if you slacken off the throttle cable you don't get correct WOT. On a modern car like the GTi you get WOT at full pedal depression with or without a pedal box.
I was referring to the responses at low pedal openings.
Apologies for not being completely scientifically accurate.
99.9% of people on here but a Pedalbox to improve the dead first inch of travel.
Hence why I was referring to low pedal depressions and driving with diving boots on and various other analogies I wish I hadn't bothered with now.
I'm off to make a cuppa.
-
Sorry pedantic is my middle name :smiley: It gets the better of me some times...
As you were, :wink:
-
My GTI is not a PP, but my previous was a GTD, so here are my thoughts on those differences. I respected the GTD as an awesome piece of automotive engineering. Plenty of go, due to the torque available, and a comfortable, solid, safe car, which would get me anywhere, pretty much as quick as todays roads will allow. The only thing it lacked was a soul - I never loved the car - it never got "inside" me. Because of that I changed, at 2 years, into a GTI with DSG, and I've not looked back, except, maybe, thankfully.
Proper engine that sounds great, revs out nicely and just seems a fair chunk faster, mostly because of the power delivery. The car always feels to be just on the end of your throttle foot, with instant response always available and the loss of a bit of weight does no harm to this, as well as helping the steering feel. In short, the GTI has a character that the GTD lacks.
-
Why don't people with a pedal box try running in individual mode with the engine in sport mode. That'll fix the so called dead pedal feel :wink:
-
Why don't people with a pedal box try running in individual mode with the engine in sport mode. That'll fix the so called dead pedal feel :wink:
That's exactly what I was doing and was perfectly happy. With a pedalbox fitted though, despite having not had it long, it's really upped the feel of the car and the excitement level. I understand fully why VW set it up as they do, the three options they offer give your some choice and keep the car more sedate for how many owners will want but to have the car more alive and like a real hot hatch, a pedalbox is the answer. I agree it's not essential and not for all but if there wasn't room for improvement in throttle response, why would VW give those options in the first place?
-
Why don't people with a pedal box try running in individual mode with the engine in sport mode. That'll fix the so called dead pedal feel :wink:
Unfortunately not.
Sport mode will make the ECU throttle map a bit more sensitive in a fake kind of way but it doesn't remove the dead travel at light pedal depression when you want a quick slug of torque to punt you along
Not all driving involves burying the pedal, or at least it shouldn't.
The Pedalbox just makes the car feel generally more peppy and is almost impossible to explain to an audience determined to dislike them.
If you don't feel the need for one don't buy one, just don't be in denial that they actually do work.
Throttle pedal lag is a known issue on most marques of car (and probably commercials too) so these products have been around years and are sold worldwide.
If you're accustomed to rather bland modern ECU and throttle mapping then fine.
It you want your throttle to feel like a good ol' naturally aspirated car with a cable throttle then these devices do the trick when added to modern low pressure turbo cars with digital throttle control.
I've spent the last God knows how many years banging on about them now so will officially shut up on the subject, much to the relief of many.
other brands offer a similar product if you have a bit of a problem with a well known North Eastern company
-
Why don't people with a pedal box try running in individual mode with the engine in sport mode. That'll fix the so called dead pedal feel :wink:
Unfortunately not.
Sport mode will make the ECU throttle map a bit more sensitive in a fake kind of way but it doesn't remove the dead travel at light pedal depression when you want a quick slug of torque to punt you along.
The individual mode with accelerator set to sport had occurred to me also.
I wonder why VW have this dead spot in the accelerator pedal. Could it have had anything to do with vehicle testing standards? Will the emphasis on 'real world' fuel economy mean better accelerator response from the factory?
-
Why don't people with a pedal box try running in individual mode with the engine in sport mode. That'll fix the so called dead pedal feel :wink:
Unfortunately not.
Sport mode will make the ECU throttle map a bit more sensitive in a fake kind of way but it doesn't remove the dead travel at light pedal depression when you want a quick slug of torque to punt you along
Not all driving involves burying the pedal, or at least it shouldn't.
The Pedalbox just makes the car feel generally more peppy and is almost impossible to explain to an audience determined to dislike them.
If you don't feel the need for one don't buy one, just don't be in denial that they actually do work.
Throttle pedal lag is a known issue on most marques of car (and probably commercials too) so these products have been around years and are sold worldwide.
If you're accustomed to rather bland modern ECU and throttle mapping then fine.
It you want your throttle to feel like a good ol' naturally aspirated car with a cable throttle then these devices do the trick when added to modern low pressure turbo cars with digital throttle control.
I've spent the last God knows how many years banging on about them now so will officially shut up on the subject, much to the relief of many.
other brands offer a similar product if you have a bit of a problem with a well known North Eastern company
[/u]
You appear to imply sport mode is kind of fake, I guess while the pedal box isn't? Or??
What car has a low pressure turbo you mention?? Not the MK7 Golf?
Not being pedantic it may sound like it, but just trying to understand what you are talking about...
Its not a case of in denial, if you want a 6cm throttle pedal to make you think you are going faster or should I say "generally feel more preppy" get one, or a "quick slug of torque" in 1cm of travel compared to 3cm, all valid points if that's your thing. I mentioned a pedal box will let you think its faster, you say the car feels preppy, so its a perceived feel both ways, then I guess we agree?
Not sure why you posted the last comment in small print, if you want to say something just say it...
-
If you don't feel the need for one, don't buy one, end of story.
But why keep banging on about how unnecessary they are when you've never even used one?
It's pretty ridiculous and smacks of just wanting an argument.
-
Not sure why you posted the last comment in small print, if you want to say something just say it...
It was a tongue in cheek reply to mcmaddy.
He knows what I meant and why it was posted in such a way.
Please bear in mind young Jacqueline that I'm not a walking instruction manual on Golfs or any modification thereof, I'm here for a bit of a laugh and to share experiences and my posts will be exactly that in general.
For reference I've previously used a Sprint Booster which did the same job as a PedalBox but wasn't very well made and had minimal adjustments (not that you really need a lot) and I'm also aware of several other similar products that I've not used and therefore can't comment on (hint hint).
Oh, and as I'm old enough to remember turbos that worked over a very narrow power band and took a good while to spool up requiring quite a lot of air and fuel to work I tend to still refer to some modern turbos as LPT's as they spool very quickly and work over a wide power band with very low emissions but tend to top out quite low in the rev band like that of a GTI and unlike that of something like an A45 AMG which boosts like buggery higher up in the rev range but takes a little while to get into its stride (in comparison to a GTI turbo).
Apologies again if I'm about ten years out of date on turbo technology but i'm not in the habit of trying to be an expert on things or be scientifically accurate. If you have a problem with dealing with idiots then I'd suggest steering clear of my posts. :kiss:
On that note I shall now go sit in a corner and chew my shoe.
-
After the wife's nightmare Mk7 GTD ownership I have just secured most probably the last UK destined GTi PP in Tornado Red.......Standard car other than DSG, Santiagos and 90% tints. I'm guessing the performance between the GTD and GTI PP is going to be like night and day other than the fuel economy :rolleyes:
To get back to the OP's original question :grin:
No I don't think it will be night and day.
I own or at least did own a GTD until very recently and my wife has the GTI.
I don't think there is much in it. The power is delivered in a different manner in both.
When I was using my wifes GTI for a couple of weeks I felt it was slower off the line than the GTD but this was partly due to trying to drive the GTI like a GTD. It took me a while to change. All sorts of Kia's and Citroen's were hammering me at the traffic lights :rolleyes: However once I got used to using all the revs in the petrol it was slightly better.
I liked the free revving of the GTI and felt it was slightly more nimble than the GTD.
However I added a pedal box to the GTI and it wiped the floor with the GTD. That on its own made it feel night and day.
-
sorry for beeing abit thick but what is a pedal box? i have just orderd a gti dsg
gtd184 i think my car would of been built maybe before xmas as it was allready overhere but was the only one left they could find with dcc option i wanted carbon grey but had to go for black i also didnt get a massive amout off as such as i wanted dcc ,tech pack,park pack,performance pack ,santiago,s and 90% tints on the back
i think it was just under 30k WOW i gota be mad
mark
VW are buying back my wife's GTD due to the amount of defects it has had during her 2.5 years of ownership. In place of that car she ordered a Tiguan R-Line after pulling out of a GLC purchase.
The GTI I have purchased is a "second" car hence the reason with the discount gained I was not too fussed on spec. I searched high and low for a base spec GTI with DSG and Dynaudio in any colour but couldn't find one for love nor money!.....the car I eventually purchased was destined for Scotland and the only GTI that was not locked into a dealer. I would have preferred the Dynaudio over the Santiagos but the discount achieved made my decision just that little bit easier.
There are still some GTI's to be had from the dealer network and even many more GTD's, however they are very highly specced and as much as I would liked to have got my hands on one I couldn't justify the cost on a second family car.
-
I wonder why VW have this dead spot in the accelerator pedal. Could it have had anything to do with vehicle testing standards? Will the emphasis on 'real world' fuel economy mean better accelerator response from the factory?
It is probably to give you a good degree of control over very low fuel input situations such as those needed in crawling through city traffic. The last thing you need when crawling along in 1st at 4mph is a hair trigger throttle.
-
More likely its because crawling in traffic is part of the emissions test regime and cutting down on the amount of fuel (needlessly) used to crawl in traffic will make the figures look better....
-
To get back to the OP's original question :grin:
No I don't think it will be night and day.
I don't think there is much in it. The power is delivered in a different manner in both.
When I was using my wifes GTI for a couple of weeks I felt it was slower off the line than the GTD but this was partly due to trying to drive the GTI like a GTD. It took me a while to change. All sorts of Kia's and Citroen's were hammering me at the traffic lights :rolleyes: However once I got used to using all the revs in the petrol it was slightly better.
I liked the free revving of the GTI and felt it was slightly more nimble than the GTD.
... so the GTD pushes you in the back from low revs, but has a shorter rev range?
... and the GTI requires more revs to push you in the back, and has a longer rev range?
... so for daily driving the GTD gives lots of shove with less effort?
... the GTI requires to be 'driven', but will give slightly better performance below 60 when 'driven' and much better performance at naughty speeds?
I had a GTI for a short test drive recently and did think it was a bit dead. It was brand new and I was just testing the DCC suspension feel - which I really liked. I noticed that for the same amount of pedal movement as my GTD the car just didn't have the same 'go'. I didn't try to use the higher rev range. The car was not 'run in'.
I'm planning on changing my car this year. After a lot of thought I have decided to put the GTI PP at the top of my list. Closely followed by the GTD.
Last week I drove my Mk6 GTD to the supermarket 7 miles away. It had not even warmed up.
My reasons for changing to GTI...
- Always wanted a GTI
- I'm doing less miles = not good for a GTD
- Want a tow bar - for a kayak trailer
- Can run on any petrol
- warms up faster
- I don't think I would notice much difference moving from GTD to GTD
- smoother, quicker, lighter, better handling, iconic
- really interested in trying the VAQ diff
-
Daz Auto, a couple of comments on your GTI experience, so far. I too had a test drive in a brand new GTI, and found it less responsive than I expected. Like all cars, the GTI can be tight when new and mine, at 8,000 miles, is now very responsive and quicker, overall, than the GTD. Also, the driver mode settings seem to have more effect on performance with the GTI than with the GTD.
Due to the torque of the GTI being so close to that of the GTI, it is much easier to drive a GTI like a GTD than vica versa.
-
...I too had a test drive in a brand new GTI, and found it less responsive than I expected. Like all cars, the GTI can be tight when new and mine, at 8,000 miles, is now very responsive and quicker, overall, than the GTD.
Thanks. The experience of owners is good to hear.
I need to arrange an extended test drive in a GTI with a few miles on it.
-
I had a back to back drive of a GTI PP and a GTD, albeit briefly due to time constraints, pretty recently. Both fairly low mileage and both from cold.
If you want to know what they're like to drive flat out it's easier just to read a road test and watch YouTube videos which a lot of people seem to base their driving requirements on when buying a performance car. Naturally once fully warmed the petrol car has more BHP and revs higher than the Diesel so in a drag race there will only be one winner.
I owned a GTI for nearly 2 years and an R for exactly 18 months, I've had a few drives in GTD's during that time and the aforementioned back to back drive out more recently.
In the back to back test both cars were completely standard so unlike other drives I'd had where my GTI or R was lightly modified what's immediately noticeable is the obvious things like the noise (albeit this is disguised a little by the soundaktor) and the fact the petrol revs much more keenly. Some 2.0 TDI's I've driven are a bit reluctant to rev but the GTD unit seems quite free revving once warmed up but nowhere near a match for the petrol units, naturally.
I didn't treat the two cars to any standing start acceleration, just a bit of fast A road driving and some slower roads just to directly compare to satisfy my own curiosity.
On paper there's only a small difference in torque with the GTI's peak being at lower revs and over a longer rev band. In reality you've got to take into account the differences in gearing too.
The GTI is massively flexible and in a manual car you can put it in top gear at town speeds and use the torque to pull you up to speed with no fuss or drama pretty quickly. Even an R struggles to match that with the same aplomb.
I found the GTD with a manual gearbox needs to be driven like a 5 speed car if you want to make brisk progress. You have to change gear more often but you can hustle it pretty quickly on the torque.
The 184 TDI doesn't give you the same kick in the back as the older 170TDI's (particularly the PD units) but it seems to be more flexible than the older units too, but again, that could be to do with mapping out the turbo kick at around 2000rpm from the factory.
The GTI does seem to have a very flat power delivery. Where the R has a notable step after 4000rpm the GTI unit just feels linear. You'll notice that a lot less in a DSG.
Your own driving style will be the biggest factor in the difference between the models.
You'll find that as the car is warming up or if you don't want to draw attention to yourself by giving it full beans in the GTI it doesn't feel very quick off the mark (same for an R only more so) if you keep the revs under 4000rpm in an attempt at mechanical sympathy but once fully warmed the petrol units come into their own so long as you're prepared to use the full rev band.
The GTI is all pretty much over and done with by 5000 rpm anyway unlike the R which is till getting into its stride then but by that point the GTD is trailing way behind. That's flat out driving though.
In normal average driving they're all much of a muchness, you can be lazy with the petrol units and take A road roundabouts in fourth gear if you don't have to slow too much on entry whereas with the GTD you do have higher gearing and a turbo that doesn't do much below 2000pm (much like an R!) so you'll need to be in a lower gear for a given speed if you want decent acceleration back up to cruising speed.
In country lanes the GTD can be hustled along very quickly if you use the gears properly and the GTI likewise and in both cars you'll spin up the inside wheel if you're a bit brutal, VAQ diff or not.
I found the VAQ to be a bit of an enigma with my car. It makes entry into a bend very stable and the car doesn't understeer anywhere as much as you'd expect (it always felt sharper than the R to me) but having driven a standard GTI and GTD around the same roads, they're pretty darned accomplished too and shows the advances in traction control and handling on the MQB cars.
From a standing start with the wheels both pointing in the same direction the PP cars will still spin away their power if you're clumsy or brutal.
The VAQ is very subtle in operation (thankfully) and you'd need to be doing the right sort of driving for it to really come into effect on public roads. I'd imagine Benny on the 'ring made far more use of it than I ever did!
It's really hard to split them without blurring the lines but once the new tax bands come in and the manual GTD draws a much higher annual VED on top of Diesel being dearer than 95RON then running cost wise there won't be a huge running cost difference for an average mileage driver so you have to look purely at driving dynamics.
The GTI would have to take the nod there unless.
I have to say though that although I was disappointed in the way the DSG masked the GTD's torque kick on my short drive with one of those when my colleague was at the helm (it was a hire car) it suddenly felt surprisingly quick in Sport Mode from the passenger seat!
The easiest way to sum it up for me would be that on different days you'd probably wish you bought a different model, unless you drive flat out quite a lot. If the latter then buy an R as once those things get in their stride there's really nothing to come close in the VW range.
-
It is a huge change going from a GTD (and 7 previous TDIs) to an R. Lazy torque to milking the whole gear to get the best of it at the top end. If you keep the R below 4k revs it is no quicker than a GTD driven to its potential. From that point of view all of the performance Golfs have a narrow band of power/torque to exploit to get the best out of them. The R really wakes up at 4k revs to 6.5k revs. My wife's A1 TDI has a wider range of usable torque than the GTD I used to have - it is eager right to the red line, albeit with a lot less power.
Just reviewed an old pedal box comment by Exonian related to his "primate" legs and imagined a pedal box like "short round" driving the getaway car in "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom" A fat block of wood on each foot to reach the pedals. :grin:
-
It's not just VAG 2.0 vs 1.6 turbo Diesels that feel like that.
Jump in a MINI and the 1.6 Diesel has a power band from just over tickover until nearly the red line and revs almost like a petrol yet the 2.0 SD is more like a VAG 2.0 TDI so it must be down to inertia, camshaft profile, flywheel and turbo size. Or something vaguely like that.
-
I had a back to back drive of a GTI PP and a GTD, albeit briefly due to time constraints, pretty recently. Both fairly low mileage and both from cold.
If you want to know what they're like to drive flat out it's easier just to read a road test and watch YouTube videos which a lot of people seem to base their driving requirements on when buying a performance car. Naturally once fully warmed the petrol car has more BHP and revs higher than the Diesel so in a drag race there will only be one winner.
I owned a GTI for nearly 2 years and an R for exactly 18 months, I've had a few drives in GTD's during that time and the aforementioned back to back drive out more recently.
In the back to back test both cars were completely standard so unlike other drives I'd had where my GTI or R was lightly modified what's immediately noticeable is the obvious things like the noise (albeit this is disguised a little by the soundaktor) and the fact the petrol revs much more keenly. Some 2.0 TDI's I've driven are a bit reluctant to rev but the GTD unit seems quite free revving once warmed up but nowhere near a match for the petrol units, naturally.
I didn't treat the two cars to any standing start acceleration, just a bit of fast A road driving and some slower roads just to directly compare to satisfy my own curiosity.
On paper there's only a small difference in torque with the GTI's peak being at lower revs and over a longer rev band. In reality you've got to take into account the differences in gearing too.
The GTI is massively flexible and in a manual car you can put it in top gear at town speeds and use the torque to pull you up to speed with no fuss or drama pretty quickly. Even an R struggles to match that with the same aplomb.
I found the GTD with a manual gearbox needs to be driven like a 5 speed car if you want to make brisk progress. You have to change gear more often but you can hustle it pretty quickly on the torque.
The 184 TDI doesn't give you the same kick in the back as the older 170TDI's (particularly the PD units) but it seems to be more flexible than the older units too, but again, that could be to do with mapping out the turbo kick at around 2000rpm from the factory.
The GTI does seem to have a very flat power delivery. Where the R has a notable step after 4000rpm the GTI unit just feels linear. You'll notice that a lot less in a DSG.
Your own driving style will be the biggest factor in the difference between the models.
You'll find that as the car is warming up or if you don't want to draw attention to yourself by giving it full beans in the GTI it doesn't feel very quick off the mark (same for an R only more so) if you keep the revs under 4000rpm in an attempt at mechanical sympathy but once fully warmed the petrol units come into their own so long as you're prepared to use the full rev band.
The GTI is all pretty much over and done with by 5000 rpm anyway unlike the R which is till getting into its stride then but by that point the GTD is trailing way behind. That's flat out driving though.
In normal average driving they're all much of a muchness, you can be lazy with the petrol units and take A road roundabouts in fourth gear if you don't have to slow too much on entry whereas with the GTD you do have higher gearing and a turbo that doesn't do much below 2000pm (much like an R!) so you'll need to be in a lower gear for a given speed if you want decent acceleration back up to cruising speed.
In country lanes the GTD can be hustled along very quickly if you use the gears properly and the GTI likewise and in both cars you'll spin up the inside wheel if you're a bit brutal, VAQ diff or not.
I found the VAQ to be a bit of an enigma with my car. It makes entry into a bend very stable and the car doesn't understeer anywhere as much as you'd expect (it always felt sharper than the R to me) but having driven a standard GTI and GTD around the same roads, they're pretty darned accomplished too and shows the advances in traction control and handling on the MQB cars.
From a standing start with the wheels both pointing in the same direction the PP cars will still spin away their power if you're clumsy or brutal.
The VAQ is very subtle in operation (thankfully) and you'd need to be doing the right sort of driving for it to really come into effect on public roads. I'd imagine Benny on the 'ring made far more use of it than I ever did!
It's really hard to split them without blurring the lines but once the new tax bands come in and the manual GTD draws a much higher annual VED on top of Diesel being dearer than 95RON then running cost wise there won't be a huge running cost difference for an average mileage driver so you have to look purely at driving dynamics.
The GTI would have to take the nod there unless.
I have to say though that although I was disappointed in the way the DSG masked the GTD's torque kick on my short drive with one of those when my colleague was at the helm (it was a hire car) it suddenly felt surprisingly quick in Sport Mode from the passenger seat!
The easiest way to sum it up for me would be that on different days you'd probably wish you bought a different model, unless you drive flat out quite a lot. If the latter then buy an R as once those things get in their stride there's really nothing to come close in the VW range.
This is a great write up. The sharper feel of the GTi is probably due to the extra 100 Kg of fat you're lugging around in the R. There used to be a time when a good hot hatch had to weigh less than 1000 Kg but those days are long gone.
You mention the diff, have you an idea of the difference in normal driving between placing this in normal and sport mode? I haven't noticed it but then I don't want to end up in a ditch.
-
Exonian, great write up. I like this bit, "on different days you'd probably wish you'd bought a different model..."
As people here have said, there is no bad choice.
-
This is a great write up. The sharper feel of the GTi is probably due to the extra 100 Kg of fat you're lugging around in the R. There used to be a time when a good hot hatch had to weigh less than 1000 Kg but those days are long gone.
You mention the diff, have you an idea of the difference in normal driving between placing this in normal and sport mode? I haven't noticed it but then I don't want to end up in a ditch.
Thanks Ant
It's a bit bitty and doesn't flow very well but I had to write it bit by bit whilst battling with autocorrect and typos. So the grammar isn't good either.
But so long as it's readable. I just wanted to put my thoughts into the mix whilst it was still pretty fresh in my mind.
From memory the VAQ should be sharper in Sport mode but the chassis is so good and the VAQ so subtle it's hard to tell.
The GTI did feel sharper than the R but the R feels more stable for want of a better word. It's hard for me to put in print but the two cars chassis do feel different, yet similar.
There's no getting away from the increasing weight of these 4wd uber-hatches but it's quite well countered by the advances in chassis, engine power and response and sheer grip.
Exonian, great write up. I like this bit, "on different days you'd probably wish you'd bought a different model..."
As people here have said, there is no bad choice.
Thanks Daz.
Again apologies for the layout and grammar.
I did find that driving the GTD you'd just be getting into stride as the torque punches you through the revs pretty smoothly and suddenly you run out of revs and need another gear quick smart. Yet cruising leisurely at lowish revs and it just purred along at speed.
With the GTI, like the R, unless you really gunned it off the line using the whole rev range the first two gears seem a bit too low considering the ample torque on hand.
And the flexibility of the GTI is supreme. It just pulls in any gear super smoothly.
As for the R. It has its downsides but not many; give it a bit of throttle at 60mph in sixth and it just shoots forward like many other cars would in third gear! It's very punchy at speed. The GTI isn't far behind at fairly sensible speeds. Once you get into licence losing territories though, the R just flies. It has a very progressive yet marked transition from GTI quick to almost supercar quick once the turbo comes on full song.
All great cars and each suits a different driving style. The GTI sits as a good midway point, so probably still the best all-round compromise it always was.
-
Below is a comparison of my Mk6 GTD to the Mk7 GTD, Mk7 GTI and Mk7 R. I like to compare the stats of my car to the cars I'm interested in buying. I know the website data may not be accurate. For a start - I thought the Mk7 was supposed to be lighter.
http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/v0k77r4chtum (http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/v0k77r4chtum)
I'm not really interested in 0-62 times or top speed. I'm am very interested in how a car will be for quick, safe overtaking.
Therefore, from the website data I have worked out the 62mph to 100mph times. Note: 100kph = 62mph, 160kph = 100mph, subtracting the numbers = 62mph to 100mph?
Mk6 GTD 20-7.8= 12.2 sec
Mk7 GTD 18.5-7.5= 11sec
Mk7 GTI PP 14.1-6= 8.1sec
Mk7 Golf R 11.2-4.8= 6.4sec
Obviously the Golf R is the best, but the GTI is good too. I doubt if I would notice much difference in performance moving from my car to a Mk7 GTD - and I want a noticeable change.