GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk7 => Topic started by: mcmaddy on 18 November 2016, 17:42
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As an alternative to a remap and also dtuk has anyone used one of these before http://www.remusuk.com/powerizer.asp?pman=Volkswagen&pmod=3074
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Seems expensive for not much gain
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Costs the same as the custom remap did for my mk6, with far inferior results. A proper rolling road job is the best way and is that price. With only an induction kit the remap took my mk6 (207bhp) to 269 bhp.
Do it proper, if this is your budget you can afford to at a reputable tuner. (I went to rstuning in Leeds)
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I agree with both of the above comments, but would offer an alternative pov. If you want more response and a progressive gain in power without any implication for the clutch I would say this may be a usable alternative with added benefit of reputable brand and TUV approval. Whilst TUV is not compulsory it does indicate a level of quality assurance i believe, and along with a moderate gain it will add significantly to the car without headline chasing BHP and torque values. (something which tuners seek as the best part of any Rolling Road advert).
I have had a couple of re-maps in the past and always asked for a lower figure (than the headline chasing numbers) to report back to a forum, as I want the car as smooth and usable as possible and not a large dump of torque and spike in bhp. Never did seem to get what i wanted :(
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Remus have been around for a long time, so the product should be good. But what about a Burger Tuning JB1, it gets rave reviews on the R Forum and costs around £435.
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For the price seems way over the top compared to the DTUK Box...... http://www.diesel-performance.co.uk/vehicle-volkswagen-vw_golf-vii_2.0-tsi-230ps-gti-(performance-pack)
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With the TUV approval the power gain is probably at thd limits of permissible emissions (higher output tuners have no such boundaries to consider) and simulated longevity tests with no appreciable drop in expected reliabilty. The unit shown there looks suspiciously like a DTUK Trevor box, likely same unit with different software for a mild output increase that probably won't cook the clutch. As much of a fan I was of the DTUK box for my GTD, I don't feel the manual clutch of the R and GTI have much overengineering to prevent clutch slip with typical box or remap increases - too many people reporting clutch slip. Is the DSG box more resilient or is it intelligent enough to tone the power down being put through it when too much?
Seems pricey for what it is, unless it comes with some kind of mechanical warranty policy.
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It's due to the clutch stories on internet forums that you wouldn't want the ridiculously high output figures of a dtuk box which is a ripped off/copy call it what you want dte systems box from Germany. They advertise around the same figures as the Remus box and unlike a remap is supposed to be undetectable for cars with warranty. Some interesting comments as always :wink:
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Chris: Looks like the same hardware as the DTUK set-up, so would be just as detectable/undetectable as the DTUK box running different software. Lots of stories of slipping R and GTI clutches with various boxes and maps (usually manual box), haven't read one for the GTD. I'd love an extra 70ps but wouldn't risk my R's clutch personally. My Dad is still enjoying his GTD with DTUK box 30k miles after he got mine.
The remappers and boxers give the customer what they want. Customers want to push that envelope and worry about the clutch only when it starts to slip, and the people selling the means to do it kindly oblige.
Who wants an extra 33ps and 50Nm for £480 when you can get an extra 86ps and 90Nm for £300? It seems like you're getting better value for money at face value and not a thought given to the clutch.
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It's due to the clutch stories on internet forums that you wouldn't want the ridiculously high output figures of a dtuk box which is a ripped off/copy call it what you want dte systems box from Germany. They advertise around the same figures as the Remus box and unlike a remap is supposed to be undetectable for cars with warranty. Some interesting comments as always :wink:
You honestly don't have a clue .... ripped off/copy ??
We're the official dte systems rep for the uk and the files we use for the GTI are the original files that dte produced for tuv approval 2/3 years ago. I'm sure I could dig out the original dyno sheets to. These figures were based on default setting as a TUV approved system has to be non adjustable. im sure the keypad is blanked off when the units are sold in Germany and Austria.
we took a 220ps that produced 259hp stock and 314hp with the box set to plus 3. In recent months the dte base file has been changed slightly and the incremental changes that are made by the + and - has been adjusted. In simple Terms each step up or down no adds approx 25% of what they used to. This is not just the GTI files, this is across the board and the reason for this is that customers were over adjusting the modules. DTUK continues to use the original files and the original adjustment values 👍
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"You honestly don't have a clue" - good way to get potential buyers from a forum.
People are more clued up than you think Andrew! And it's funny that's not what you told me a couple of years ago about your boxes and using dte base files but I'm not on here to slag you or anyone off just looking at all angles. So with your dtuk box you wouldn't have to have it hitting your headline figures as advertised on your website, the different incremental changes will give varying outputs?
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Chris: The +/- increments of the Trevor box and even the 3 different programs all had noticeable differences to me when I tinkered.
I found 1+1 and 3+1 to be the best on my GTD (if I remember rightly without trawling through my old posts) - smoothest delivery and minimal regens, and you could certainly rein it back with lower settings. Sounds to me that you want the standard DTE files or similar on whatever box you get, but then you may be disappointed that an extra 35-40ps although noticeable doesn't transform the car.
With that in mind it'll be very doable to stick some mild enhancement maps on which keep the torque increase down, but most customers want the 86ps/90Nm increase and to hell with the clutch (until it slips) rather than a 40ps/30Nm increase which will be noticeable but easier on the clutch.
I've no idea what the safe limit is on a manual GTI/R clutch, but it doesn't seem to be much more than the standard output of 380Nm, i'm guessing 400Nm or thereabouts as the usual 430-450Nm GTI output seems to cause issues for some GTIs with reported clutch slip. I'm assuming that the GTI and R have the same clutch (which may or may not be a correct assumption).
It's probably no coincidence that the facelifted manual S3 has an extra 10ps but no more torque, even the DSG only has 10Nm more than the manual.
With all that in mind, i'm guessing that the safest remap/box gains are minimal on the additional torque.
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This seems to be the issue Matt and tuning companies always seem to show the headline grabbing figures. Maybe I'm the only one who wants a little bit extra but not stupid daft extra haha
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On a rolling road they'll get as much as it will give until the clutch slips a little then they'll turn it down a little.
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This seems to be the issue Matt and tuning companies always seem to show the headline grabbing figures. Maybe I'm the only one who wants a little bit extra but not stupid daft extra haha
We used to quote 220/275hp on the golf, but unfortunately our competitors were only publishing the "headline figures", i agree that tuners should sell the "gain" rather than the "headline". But this isn't how things are done. If anyone asks us we tell them that the actual gain is 55/60ps and then explain our own findings and that of customers.
To answer your question above regarding the files, say for instance the amount of voltage removed is
0.6v, the original files and the data we continue to use would add an extra 0.01v per incremental change. DTE in their wisdom changed that to 0.025 and also reduced the base file down to 0.5v.
So for instance on a gti if the starting point was 0.6 on plus 2 its 0.8, or plus 3 its 0.9v..
The dte files now starts at 0.5 and on plus 2 becomes 0.55v, and on plus 3 becomes 0.575v..
The difference between 0.575v and 0.9v is massive, im sure Matt will work the % out, but to put it in context on the original S3 300PS file, the difference between 0.5v and 0.8v added an extra 20hp and 40nm..
The boxes used to have 4 files, the newer "trevor" boxes now have 3.. we would often only receive 1 files from DTE, sometimes 2 and if we were lucky 3.. We would develop our own files, and continue to do so.
The new owner of DTE made another change to the files and the protocol now is that
Map 1 is 100% of the original file with the small 0.025v increments
Map 2 is 80% of map 1
Map 3 is 100% but the cam duration is set to around 70% of map 1..
So the DTUK systems may use the same hardware, but the software is either pre new owner, or our own files. In fact it was ourselves that developed the files for the new 310ps 7 speed DSG found in the new S3 and facelifted golf R.
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"You honestly don't have a clue" - good way to get potential buyers from a forum.
People are more clued up than you think Andrew! And it's funny that's not what you told me a couple of years ago about your boxes and using dte base files but I'm not on here to slag you or anyone off just looking at all angles. So with your dtuk box you wouldn't have to have it hitting your headline figures as advertised on your website, the different incremental changes will give varying outputs?
I have the original files that relate to this video if you would be happier with less power..
https://youtu.be/AwkvwGzwGKE
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I was more than happy with the results on my DTUK'd GTD (it transformed the car), and on many other performance cars there may be quite a level of over-engineering on items such as the clutch which would show the strain (if any) first and so adding a box or remapping wouldn't be a bother.
Just seems that this time around, VW have put clutches into the performance petrol models that are "just enough". If I thought the R's clutch would take it, i'd be all over another box.
Is it difficult to up the power significantly with only a small torque gain or no torque gain with the way the boxes work? That might be more useful for the GTI/R on the stock clutch, especially as the R shines in the upper end of it's rev range anyway. Seems that this is the way Audi have gone with the 10ps increase on the manual S3's facelift.
As an aside, i'm curious what the clutch is like (in terms of resilience/over-engineering) on the wife's A1 1.6TDI 116ps. If I find out it hasn't got a chocolate clutch it'll almost certainly be getting a box on it.
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MH, the JB1 can easily be tuned to limit boost and thus torque at lower RPM's while maintaining a very good BHP gain at high revs.
I run a JB1 at a high torque setting (manual box) and haven't yet suffered torque so severe that slips the clutch.
I've been there with a mk5 TDI with a remap so know the score.
IF I detect any clutch slip I'll try a low boost setting but will more likely just sell the car then the box as I'm not prepared to compromise what I want out of a car nor do extensive mods such as an uprated clutch.
I'd rather drive a slower (on paper) car that was more fun than put up with a fast car that doesn't drive 100% as I want it.
Anyway, cutting through my waffle, if the JB1 can run a low torque map at low revs so can a DTUK as you will just need to lower the low speed boost via the settings and bring it in a bit further up the Rev range. That'll make both the turbo and clutch happier too.
PS, interesting facts on the Remus vs DTE vs DTUK points there from Andrew. I'd seen the Remus advertised a while back and noticed the casing and loom were unmistakably DTE.
Nice to know the facts about the maps the boxes run and the reasons why :afro:
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Thanks for the explanation Andrew much appreciated. Something to chew over now.
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As has been said - hardware looks similar (although the Remus looms look overly complicated compared to the DTUK ones).
I've been running a DTUK box on my GTI PP (manual) and although I can't quote power figures, it feels bloody fast! So much so I managed to keep up with (and gain on) an S3 saloon (who was properly going for it) - obviously all up to the posted speed limit officer.
I would report that I have experienced a bit of clutch slip (twice in a couple of years of ownership). Both times this was after being in a massive queue for at least 30 minutes (stop start traffic - leaving a car show) and have had no other issues. It was also run in the heat of Cyprus with the DTUK box on for almost a year with no issues either.
Don't get me wrong - you have to take care not to drive it like someone who really doesn't have a clue (IE, lots of high gear, low revs and large throttle openings) which would give any clutch a hard time but in normal everyday driving (both steady and spirited) I've never had any other issues.
Really must get it on a rolling road to see what it's putting out! Andrew@DTUK - you guys running any soon lol?
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As has been said - hardware looks similar (although the Remus looms look overly complicated compared to the DTUK ones).
I've been running a DTUK box on my GTI PP (manual) and although I can't quote power figures, it feels bloody fast! So much so I managed to keep up with (and gain on) an S3 saloon (who was properly going for it) - obviously all up to the posted speed limit officer.
I would report that I have experienced a bit of clutch slip (twice in a couple of years of ownership). Both times this was after being in a massive queue for at least 30 minutes (stop start traffic - leaving a car show) and have had no other issues. It was also run in the heat of Cyprus with the DTUK box on for almost a year with no issues either.
Don't get me wrong - you have to take care not to drive it like someone who really doesn't have a clue (IE, lots of high gear, low revs and large throttle openings) which would give any clutch a hard time but in normal everyday driving (both steady and spirited) I've never had any other issues.
Really must get it on a rolling road to see what it's putting out! Andrew@DTUK - you guys running any soon lol?
Im planning on taking the CS-S down to Motoscope at some point, your more than welcome to join us :)
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Gnasher what settings have you been using on yours?
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Don't get me wrong - you have to take care not to drive it like someone who really doesn't have a clue (IE, lots of high gear, low revs and large throttle openings) which would give any clutch a hard time but in normal everyday driving (both steady and spirited) I've never had any other issues.
And therein lies the rub for anyone used to driving Diesels - you have to change down far more often to get the best out of the R, i'm used to it now but it took a short while. I think Chris (mcmaddy) might struggle initially to adjust to the petrol way of driving for the first few weeks/months with his GTI after a string of diesels, it's a completely different way of driving and driving the R/GTI with higher than stock output like a diesel with lazy torque use is far more likely too cook the clutch.
I drive the wife's A1 the same way I drive the R - milk the lower gears when I want to make rapid progress, it seems to run out of puff higher up the rev range than the GTD, but has a lot less power and torque (4th and 5th gear is pretty weak with the 116ps output).
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Gnasher what settings have you been using on yours?
I'll be honest it's been that long since I changed them I can't remember, however I do know whatever map it's on it is at +1.
Andrew - I sometimes take a trip up to Boulmer for work. I'll definitely pop in when I do. If you guys do organise anything, I'll be up for it. I'm no marketing expert but I reckon a DTUK dyno day would provide some good material ;-)
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Anyone interested in a rolling road morning around Suffolk way?
Friend of mine has just had a rolling road room built with Maha dyometers installed, ambient controlled, underfloor extraction etc...
I organised a few people on Saturday from the Lotus & Caterham 7 owners club & went very smoothly.
www.facebook.com/LukeStevensDevelopments
My bosses car on the rollers on Saturday :)
https://www.facebook.com/LukeStevensDevelopments/videos/670118766479305/
Small selection of cars we had there on Saturday
(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15178067_670163516474830_7867782957638686354_n.jpg?oh=50ee0ae1e4093a9e4b807a03b5f697f2&oe=58D4A501)