GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk7 => Topic started by: robtt on 25 September 2015, 13:15
-
So my Gti built and in transit ( stage 5a) and now sent back to factory for a modification to engine exhaust management.So not only diesels affected by engine cheat. Wonder how long I will have to wait for the car now.
-
Any info on what exactly this means.
If any mods affect (reduce) the performance of the GTi, or R, then do we have a valid reason to cancel an order as most people are buying GTis or Rs based on performance figures.
-
I'm also very interested in this, mine has completed build but I haven't had the tracker update yet.
-
That's very interesting. Let's hope that the recall and fix doesn't affect performance figures. I wonder if this will affect current vehicles ie. will there be a recall? If they think they're having my car back to reduce output they've got another thing coming :laugh:
I hope it doesn't add too much of a wait onto you getting your car.
-
Kind of the opposite of the mk1 TT 'please bring your car back to have a spoiler fitted' recall :grin:
-
Blimey,
I'm watching and waiting for their announcement but it sounds like some of the truth is out already...
From what I've read, the "cleanliness" is down to how aggressive EGR is set to. Notch up it, power output goes down but so does emissions...
I think i read somewhere that the degree of power loss might well be quite significant - for the USA Derv's anyway.
-
Relax everyone someone hacked my message thingy at the Office ! Thought there was a lot of smirking about !! They are off the Xmas dinner list as of now.Sorry to all. But I do wonder if petrol engines are affected .We will see
-
Relax everyone someone hacked my message thingy at the Office ! Thought there was a lot of smirking about !! They are off the Xmas dinner list as of now.Sorry to all. But I do wonder if petrol engines are affected .We will see
Phew! Whoever it was should, of course, be put in stocks over the weekend. :evil:
-
It looks like you deserved it as if you've bored anyone in work enough for them to actually know what a Stage 5A is then you are just asking for it!!!
I've spent half of my life on here at various times and even I have no idea what a Stage 5a is or what any of the other stages are!!!
:whistle:
-
That was not a funny joke!!!!!!
-
For petrol vehicles, these are dispproportionate reactions to the VW scandal; but it is a potentially serious problem for diesels I think, but not for engines though.
My 2013 GTI DSG did an actual over 43mpg at a rather boring average of 41mph on a rather tiresome and quite often stopped (including engine) on an A3/M25/M1 return journey of over 200 miles yesterday...
Even if there is a petrol engined scandal to follow, for me I am sure no degree of faking of emissions and consequent fuel consumption could have been involved with these figures.
-
I have owned a 2.5 litre Impreza that managed an average of 18mpg and a 4.2 litre petrol V8 range Rover that did 14mpg.
Green credentials weren't my highest priority when I was considering the GTI :grin:
-
So my Gti built and in transit ( stage 5a) and now sent back to factory for a modification to engine exhaust management.So not only diesels affected by engine cheat. Wonder how long I will have to wait for the car now.
Add 2 and 2 to get 5.
Very much doubt that your exhaust management recall is down to NOx emissions cheating. It is a diesel only problem.
Diesel auto-ignites at around 800C. Petrol is ignited under spark at around 130C, max internal temp of a cylinder in a petrol engine is around 250C, around 800C in the diesel. NOx is produced by the presence of an excess of Oxygen and Nitrogen from the air drawn in and subject to very high temperatures and pressures. The combustion conditions of a petrol engine don't lend themselves to copious NOx production.
Nitrogen in most conditions is considered inert - that's why there's so much of it in our atmosphere, It takes extreme conditions to make nitrogen containing compounds from atmospheric Nitrogen - Diesel engines provide those conditions, petrol engines don't.
Also petrol engines don't draw air in at a massive excess to that needed for the amount of oxygen to combust the fuel into water and carbon dioxide. More Nitrogen + higher temperature + higher pressure = more NOx.
As UK cars are taxed on their CO2 output, I can't see anyone facing a tax hike on their cars.
-
I thi :roll eyes:nk someone hasn't read the whole thread :whistle:
-
I thi :roll eyes:nk someone hasn't read the whole thread :whistle:
If that's for my benefit then it has been mentioned by other posters that petrols shouldn't be affected, but I posted above to explain why Petrol engines make far less NOx.
-
I don't see why petrol motors should be affected. The diesel market in the US is only about 3% (50% in the UK) as there isn't the same cost incentive for ownership over there. So diesel cars are being pushed as "green" instead. Whilst the CO2 emissions are slightly lower, it seems very difficult for manufacturers to avoid the clouds of NOx and carcinogenic oil-coated soot etc that we see every day over here. Petrol cars don't have this issue.
-
I don't see why petrol motors should be affected. The diesel market in the US is only about 3% (50% in the UK) as there isn't the same cost incentive for ownership over there. So diesel cars are being pushed as "green" instead. Whilst the CO2 emissions are slightly lower, it seems very difficult for manufacturers to avoid the clouds of NOx and carcinogenic oil-coated soot etc that we see every day over here. Petrol cars don't have this issue.
Agree with you entirely on the Nox. The EU6 emissions targets specific to NOx is easily achievable for petrol engines, for diesels however, the NOx target for EU6 is a big drop from EU5 targets, which were a challenge to meet in the first place.
The DPFs do a good job in reducing soot, and in fact as petrol cars start behaving more like diesels (direct injection), they are more likely to emit soot of their own, smaller particulates that have the potential to be more harmful than those from diesel (more easily breathed into the lungs, and more mobile in the air), yet have no current requirements for a DPF. Cars like the 7R have direct injection, but also a post main injection "wash" indirect injection. This helps reducing the particulates and prevents the engine from coking up. Cars like the latest Mini generation are direct injection, but without that "wash" injection to clean things up - you can see reports of those engines needing decoking.
Cars aren't green, but they can be at their greenest when properly maintained. Pre-DPF diesels are absolutely filthy. More should be done to incentivise taking those off the road. Similarly a misfiring, badly maintained petrol car will be spewing out unburnt Benzene (used as an anti-knock agent, one of the most potent carcinogens there is) and vapourised fuel.
Seems like a typical Daily Mail story that has been blown up. If (I say more like "when") the other companies are caught at it, this will blow over and we will get some emissions testing reform.
For the litigation eager Yanks, they will be looking to batter the non-domestic marques to protect their own (Ford, GM, Chrysler etc.). With their fuel prices, a diesel in the US seems utterly pointless unless you're talking a big diesel V6/V8 4x4 anyway.
-
I don't see why petrol motors should be affected. The diesel market in the US is only about 3% (50% in the UK) as there isn't the same cost incentive for ownership over there. So diesel cars are being pushed as "green" instead. Whilst the CO2 emissions are slightly lower, it seems very difficult for manufacturers to avoid the clouds of NOx and carcinogenic oil-coated soot etc that we see every day over here. Petrol cars don't have this issue.
Agree with you entirely on the Nox. The EU6 emissions targets specific to NOx is easily achievable for petrol engines, for diesels however, the NOx target for EU6 is a big drop from EU5 targets, which were a challenge to meet in the first place.
The DPFs do a good job in reducing soot, and in fact as petrol cars start behaving more like diesels (direct injection), they are more likely to emit soot of their own, smaller particulates that have the potential to be more harmful than those from diesel (more easily breathed into the lungs, and more mobile in the air), yet have no current requirements for a DPF. Cars like the 7R have direct injection, but also a post main injection "wash" indirect injection. This helps reducing the particulates and prevents the engine from coking up. Cars like the latest Mini generation are direct injection, but without that "wash" injection to clean things up - you can see reports of those engines needing decoking.
Cars aren't green, but they can be at their greenest when properly maintained. Pre-DPF diesels are absolutely filthy. More should be done to incentivise taking those off the road. Similarly a misfiring, badly maintained petrol car will be spewing out unburnt Benzene (used as an anti-knock agent, one of the most potent carcinogens there is) and vapourised fuel.
Seems like a typical Daily Mail story that has been blown up. If (I say more like "when") the other companies are caught at it, this will blow over and we will get some emissions testing reform.
For the litigation eager Yanks, they will be looking to batter the non-domestic marques to protect their own (Ford, GM, Chrysler etc.). With their fuel prices, a diesel in the US seems utterly pointless unless you're talking a big diesel V6/V8 4x4 anyway.
Not sure a DPF is anything other than a defeat device as well though. They only good job they do is giving the car low emissions until the filter needs to regen either passively or manually, then they pump it out the exhaust in 1 go. They store the crap to make the car appear clean then pump it out on a burn. It still comes out at some point. IMO the sooner we remove diesels from the road the better, if its not governments or car makers faking it, its MOT stations thrashing a diesel engine before a test to "clear it out".
"post main injection "wash" indirect injection" is this the injection in the inlet to stop the coking up? If so its still washing and burning they substance off in the engine and chucking it out the back though surely? I don't think we are anywhere near getting clean but we are certainly trying to fool the public with "Eco" "Green" "blue motion" tech.
http://www.londonair.org.uk/london/asp/news.asp?NewsId=OxfordStHighNO2
-
Not sure a DPF is anything other than a defeat device as well though. They only good job they do is giving the car low emissions until the filter needs to regen either passively or manually, then they pump it out the exhaust in 1 go. They store the crap to make the car appear clean then pump it out on a burn.
Yes and no to the above. The DPF stores soot, but it doesn't chuck it out as is in a discrete glug unchanged rather than spewing it out indiscriminately like you see old pre-DPF diesels doing. It stores it up and combusts it, creating more CO2 and a little water, as the soot will be predominantly unburnt carbon from the hydrocarbons that make up diesel, with a little hydrogenation in there.
When burnt you are left with some incombustible inorganic ash (the build-up of that ash is what gives the DPF its finite life of 120-200k miles before it is filled to the point that the soot storage is not enough) .
In effect the DPF is a CO2 defeat device (storing a bit of carbon in soot form and burning it outside the test cycle), but a bit more CO2 is less harmful than the soot that would otherwise be pumped out. As such it is not a cheat, it converts the soot into CO2, far less harmful.
VW DPFs typically regen at about 45% fill with a capacity of 47g. That's 21.2g to burn on a typical regen. On the assumption that soot is 100% carbon (slightly simplistic, but approx true), 21.2g of carbon generates 84.8g of CO2. My GTD regenned every 600 miles (960km), so that regen is contributing 0.09g per km - wont make a scratch on the CO2 rating.
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/vw-jetta-tdi-golf-dpf-filter.htm (http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/vw-jetta-tdi-golf-dpf-filter.htm)
-
Jackie, Why don't we just go the whole hog and everyone buy Nissan leafs or Prius ffs. It's ridiculous statements like 'sooner diesels are removed from the roads the better'that cause idiot politicians to think it's a good idea. What do you expect the haulage industry to use to get your groceries to the shop?? Petrol cars pump out more co2s than diesels so should they be removed from the roads too?
-
Jackie, Why don't we just go the whole hog and everyone buy Nissan leafs or Prius ffs. It's ridiculous statements like 'sooner diesels are removed from the roads the better'that cause idiot politicians to think it's a good idea. What do you expect the haulage industry to use to get your groceries to the shop?? Petrol cars pump out more co2s than diesels so should they be removed from the roads too?
:grin: relax, I doubt any politicians would listen, as making us pay at the pumps is very useful for the near future to them. but we are sold something as being cheap to run and better on emissions but its generally false. All city buses and taxi should be electric, we have absolutely no need to kick out the NOX gasses in cities where the journeys and infrastructure can accommodate it. I don't want electric cars for all btw, I'm not a tree hugger but in cities? when the journeys are known for the given bus company routes so charging wouldn't be an issue? The article I posted a link to is very enlightening? and the level of NOX taken from trees near schools is shocking.
Food to shops and general haulage is another issue altogether that can be justified in the use of a diesel vehicle. but i see no need for cars road cars to have diesels. And i have had diesels in the past (4 ithink) VW Audi BMW
Please take note of the "imo" its only a forum, but I don't see the point of diesels if the lower CO2 rating given to them, then puts out more dangerous NOX. I think we should move away from them for road car.
While France has banned the worse diesels in Paris since July 2015
“We are determined to act quickly,” Paris’s Socialist mayor told Le Monde. “The fine particles [from diesel fumes and responsible for around 42,000 deaths a year in France] emitted mostly by public buses and coaches are a major health concern.”
-
Smoking cigarettes will kill more than 42,000 a year in France!! It was a knee jerk reaction that the f***wit mayor of London jumped on and now other cities are doing the same. No mode of transport is truly 100% green not even pure electric cars.
-
No mode of transport is truly 100% green not even pure electric cars.
Or bicycles. Think of the emissions created in the growing, harvesting and transportation of crops, the processing that goes into turning them into food, the packaging, yet more transportation to the shops, then the energy required to cook them. All this in order to fuel the cyclist. Oh, and the hot water to wash the plates up afterwards.
-
And so we ban cigarettes in public places. The sooner it moves to the diesels the better. But we probably shouldn't use smoking as part of any argument about killing people through respiratory illness. But that's another story. :wink:
-
It's what the French have done and what we will be doing over here. Politicians always fail to see the bigger picture and go after the easy targets.