GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk7 => Golf mk7 GTD/TDI => Topic started by: fredgroves on 19 September 2015, 17:42
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http://www.wsj.com/articles/epa-accuses-volkswagen-of-dodging-emissions-rules-1442595129
Hmmmmm
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VW shares down 20% over this... the fine could be $18 billion!
What they did was to be able to spot the parameters of the EPA test and back off the output of the engine to reduce emissions...in software.
I wonder if the same software can detect the also very clearly defined Euro6 test.... I'm sure thats coming.
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Accused and VW have admitted it...
As for the Euro testing for emissions... could be interesting... I had no doubt that the software can be written to recognise the conditions for the test... I wouldn't be surprised if it was similar here :angry:
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Well, they both use a prescribed test using a dynamometer
Here is the EPA's:
https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/cycles/ftp72.php
Here is the EU one:
https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/cycles/ece_eudc.php
What the VW software does it to spot this well defined EPA pattern, coupled with other clues like lack of steering input etc etc.
We already know that the Mk7 is able to detect steering inputs and use it to trigger things - eg the "are you awake" thing and also for the city/emergency braking response....
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Down another 20% today, South Korea on it:
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/vw-exec-admits-totally-screwed-073950488.html
France stirring it up:
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/volkswagen-faces-probes-pollution-cheating-093031485.html
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Doesn't affect UK engines just the e189 US diesel engine.
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Well, yes, the EPA is a US regulator and they are only interested in products manufactured for the US market.... however this almost certainly will spill over into examination of cheating in other countries and by all vehicle manufacturers... and it already has as you can see above.
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Doesn't affect UK engines just the e189 US diesel engine.
VWAG have announced this 'software' is in 11 million vehicles across the world not just US.
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The software might be but eu6 cars are apparently all legal.
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The software might be but eu6 cars are apparently all legal.
Has VW stated this?
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they have http://www.volkswagenag.com/content/vwcorp/info_center/en/news/2015/09/Volkswagen_AG_has_issued_the_following_information.html
but i'm sure there will be more to come
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I think probably someone (in the EU) will be examining that in some detail.... I don't think anyone is in the mood to accept VW's word about this!
Although, my gut feeling is that the derv engine used in the USA was an older model that was "retrofitted" to comply with EPA Tier II regulations, whereas the European model used Euro5 and 6 purpose built engines.
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It's all a huge mess - you really have to wonder who actually sanctioned the implementation of the test mode software, and who has known about it for all these years :rolleyes:
Financially, a huge cost, but more importantly, VW reputation and loss of future sales will be the biggest cost to them
Expect a EU crackdown on aftermarket remaps/tuning as well in time - after all, why should a manufacturer go through all the hugely expensive certification process only for some bloke with a laptop turning up the boost and fuel maps willy nilly, or removing the DPF
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Quite a mess and a bit sad really - I have worked for a German multi-national, multi billion € company for over 26 years now, and they take these matters of tests and documentation really seriously - shame on you VW - heads are going to have to roll over this ?
Heard on the news this morning that over a million UK cars could be recalled, although if we believe the statement from VW mentioned above, then drivers of MK7 Dervs with the Euro 6 compliant engines are immune from these (so my GTD for instance), although I'm sure everyone of it's emission tests in all markets around the world will be under scrutiny now.
Wonder if this is just the VW brand or also Audi (which is massive in the US), as well as Skoda, Seat etc. ? I also wonder how many other manufacturers are playing the same game but just haven't been found out.
Whilst it's bad for VW (very bad), maybe some good will come out of this, as things like the emission and European official fuel consumption tests will now hopefully be adapted for something approaching real world conditions - not laboratory.
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WLTP will replace all of the various domestic/regional testing standards eventually...
https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/cycles/wltp.php
Who knows when though!
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I've been trying to make some sense of the very confusing EPA standards for NOX emmissions.... but it seems to me to be 0.05g/mile, which when you multiply that by 1.6 to make it into g/km, comes out as 0.08g/km... which is the same value as the Euro6 standard.
I guess the key here is whether the EPA standard has been in force for some time... remember Euro6 engines only came about with the Mk7 and technically Euro6 only comes into force September 2015 anyway.
It seems VAG were trying to sell effectively a Euro5 design engine into the USA, which had a test limit of 0.25g/km - just over three times worse.
All of this really just stresses the importance of globally harmonized emission standards - something which ironically has been more about manufacturer resistance than anything else!
There's a good writeup here:
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/214605-vw-caught-cheating-on-diesel-emmissions-standards-ordered-to-recall-500000-cars
Actually, thats the most detailed technical explanation I've seen so far... apart from explaining what I read elsewhere which is that the test rig is a front wheel dyno style rig... to enable the car to actually not freak out about the front wheels moving and the rears not, you have to put it into a special mode... a rolling road mode. So its not a truly automatic "defeat" device...
I wonder how this defeat device actually plays havoc with performance testing dyno runs? What do you have to do to a Mk7 when you stick it on a dyno for power measurement?
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The mk7 tdi is the ea288, but i've done plenty of ea189s on the dyno generally you just switch off the traction control and once the abs registers the rear wheel speed sensor faults it just powers through. B8 Audi A4s I sometimes have to disconnect the abs pump. From what I gather the emissions tests are started with a cold engine so that may be part of the trigger. They've all made within 2bhp of the quoted factory flywheel power too.
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It's all about nox emissions and it doesn't affect performance or mpg either. It also won't affect road tax.
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Latest statement from VW.
http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/owners/dieselinfo
As stated above all EU6 models (e.g. GTD) are unaffected...
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What would they actually do in the recall?
I'm guessing it would also affect the performance of the car?
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Update the software on the ECU...
They say that it will not affect the performance... but do you believe them?
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Update the software on the ECU...
They say that it will not affect the performance... but do you believe them?
Performance or mpg - i'd expect one of those to suffer, otherwise they'd have not needed the cheat in the first place. Unless they didn't have the tech/knowhow for EU5 that they do for EU6.
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The mk7 tdi is the ea288, but i've done plenty of ea189s on the dyno generally you just switch off the traction control and once the abs registers the rear wheel speed sensor faults it just powers through.
Chris at CC Tuning mapped my 2011 Passat. To get it to work on the rollers, he went through a sequence of pressing the brake pedal and indicating (or something like that)
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I logged a complaint with VW when this news first aired. Had a text to call them yesterday quoting my VIN. They checked and confirmed my car isn't affected. O have therefore asked for this in writing. Can imagine being hammered on the residuals with out that piece of paper.
Suggest you all do the same. They apparently have a list of all the affected VINs so can confirm in minutes.
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Can you imagine the uproar if people had the BHP or MPG cut by a considerable amount?
Would that not be grounds for returning the car as its clearly not what it was advertised at before buying it?
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Update the software on the ECU...
They say that it will not affect the performance... but do you believe them?
Performance or mpg - i'd expect one of those to suffer, otherwise they'd have not needed the cheat in the first place. Unless they didn't have the tech/knowhow for EU5 that they do for EU6.
If its now just the know how /software update, you would think they would be altering the cars on the quiet when they were back for service / work done and nobody would know.
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I logged a complaint with VW when this news first aired. Had a text to call them yesterday quoting my VIN. They checked and confirmed my car isn't affected. O have therefore asked for this in writing. Can imagine being hammered on the residuals with out that piece of paper.
Suggest you all do the same. They apparently have a list of all the affected VINs so can confirm in minutes.
It is concerning but I'm not sure I'd go to that length.
Audi are in the midst of setting up a self service check which I'm sure VW will be doing the same
https://www.audi.co.uk/content/audi/about-audi/latest-news/volkswagen-group-uk-announces-action-plan-to-modify-diesel-vehicles-with-ea-189-eu5-engines.html
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Audi are in the midst of setting up a self service check which I'm sure VW will be doing the same
https://www.audi.co.uk/content/audi/about-audi/latest-news/volkswagen-group-uk-announces-action-plan-to-modify-diesel-vehicles-with-ea-189-eu5-engines.html
Yes, VW, Skoda and Seat have the same news item on their websites.
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If its now just the know how /software update, you would think they would be altering the cars on the quiet when they were back for service / work done and nobody would know.
How do you know they didn't? :whistle:
I'm sure I put it on the forum at the time, but my mpg took a bit of a dive and the car took longer to warm up after my first service on the MK7 GTD.
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You can already check if your VIN is affected:
http://info.volkswagen.de/de/de/home.html?tab=check-own-car
If you get this as a result then you are NOT affected:
Lieber Volkswagen Kunde,
wir möchten Ihnen bestätigen, dass das Fahrzeug mit der von Ihnen eingegebenen Fahrgestellnummer WVWZZZAUZEP533xxx nicht von der Software betroffen ist, die Stickoxidwerte (NOx) im Prüfstandlauf (NEFZ) optimiert.
If you get this as a result then you got f....d:
Lieber Volkswagen Kunde,
wir müssen Sie leider informieren, dass der in Ihrem Fahrzeug mit der Fahrgestellnummer WVWZZZ1KZ9W491xxx eingebaute Dieselmotor vom Typ EA189 von einer Software betroffen ist, die Stickoxidwerte (NOx) im Prüfstandlauf (NEFZ) optimiert. Wir versichern Ihnen jedoch, dass Ihr Fahrzeug technisch sicher und fahrbereit ist!
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The checker is now on the UK site but I thought we were all EU6 cars anyway?
http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/owners/dieselinfo
I see my old Mk6 has failed.
"Dear Volkswagen customer,
We regret to inform you that the Type EA 189 engine built into your vehicle with the Vehicle Identification Number WVWZZZXXXXXXX you submitted, is affected by software that causes discrepancies in the values for oxides of nitrogen (NOx) during dynometer runs. Your car is safe from a technical standpoint and roadworthy.
We are very sorry to have broken your trust and are working at full speed to find a technical solution. Volkswagen will cover the cost relating directly to this repair.
We will be in touch with you directly to explain what steps are required. We'll do the necessary work at our cost.
Yours faithfully,
Volkswagen"
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Just checked my VIN. Jan 13 GTD MK7. In the clear apparently! Honest... :grin: :shocked:
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All UK gtd's are unaffected.