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Model specific boards => Golf mk7 => Topic started by: drisser on 29 July 2015, 15:31
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You go out to spend around £30k + on a new car, so why do some dealers make it so hard to do this ?
Having spent last Saturday driving 2 x VW, 2 x Audi and 2 x BMW it was also a chance to check out service levels. I have to say VW have always been very good when I have dealt with them but seems to vary within brand. My usual Audi dealer are also very good as they are a local dealer group not one of the big boys.
I thought I would try another Audi dealer early last week in case I needed a backup or to play one off against the other if I decided on an S3, plus the fact they are a bit handier.. Anyway after first going to the showroom last week, alarm bells started to ring as the guy didn’t seem that interested in arranging me a test drive and looked bemused that I might be interested in an S3 or an RS3 as if to say “ you can’t possibly afford an RS3 if you are looking at an S3 !?”
So having managed to squeeze a grudging test drive the guy refused to give me a part ex on my A3, despite checking it over etc. Refused to basically give me any finance quote because as he put it “ I prefer to get emotion involved and then sharpen the pencil” I should have know how this would go.
Anyway, the weekend came and went having driven the S3 and RS3, Golf’s and BMW’s at my usual local dealers who I have to say were all excellent as always, prepared quotes there and then etc..
So having more or less shortlisted the S3 and BMW 330d, I emailed back the other Audi dealer with a specced up pdf of my ideal car with a simple request – I said “I have to decide between the S3 and 330d and it might well come down to price – can you price me up the attached car with an idea of the best price you can do the S3 for and give me an idea of part ex for my A3 that you looked at last week ?” - not an unreasonable request ?
The response – and I quote .. “ I would prefer not to get into a dutch auction with regards to best price. We would be keen to have your business at ******* Audi & therefore if the S3 was your preferred choice please let me know what monthly payments you are looking to achieve to place the order”
WTF ?! :lipsrsealed: So I replied back (even though I know what a Dutch auction is) “ Not sure what you mean by a Dutch auction, but if you were hoping to hide the actual price I might pay for the car with massaged GFV’s, APR’s and Part ex’s that I can’t see clearly and think I was going to make a decision based purely on a monthly payment, you are every much mistaken. For a start, you haven’t even told me when you could supply a car, secondly I am an accountant and the reason I asked for the price of the car, the part ex separately is exactly to avoid massaging of figures, therefore its clear ******* Audi won’t be getting my business.”
Unbelievable. How can 1 Audi dealer (or salesman) be so awful and another be really good (my usual Audi dealer shipped down at S3 for me from another garage 50 miles away) ?! Still, it no doubt goes for all brands, in my experience the common denominator is the smaller family owned dealers or groups are much better to deal with and value your custom.
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I still maintain that the automotive sales and service sector is worse than pretty much every other sector in every possible way.
The galling thing here is that cars are so expensive, you'd think they'd have better service... mind you estate agents are c***s too :-/
The "the price is the price, if you can't afford it f*** off" is a great attitude for a Ferrari dealer, not so good for someone selling what appears from observing the roads to be about the 2nd most popular marque on the road.
They seem to always have a rather inflated idea of what the three ring badge actually means.
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Its even more annoying when you work in finance and so many (not just Audi) try and hide behind PCP Monthly figures to mask the true cost of the car or the APR of finance etc..and just make it "affordable"
Only 4 things I want when I start a dealer discussion.
List price with options £
Discount £
Apr % if I want finance
Part Ex price £
After that, then I can decide on monthly payments etc, first a bit of transparency is useful..
To be honest there is probably a PPI mis-selling scandal waiting to happen in the car industry. One BMW dealer (again part of a big group) made me a PCP finance quote over 48 months, with minimum deposit and actually giving me cashback for my part ex despite the fact I asked for a 24 month straight HP, with max deposit !!
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Audi Dealers are generally the worst, though I have heard very good reports about Coventry Audi. They give really good deals.
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Dead true story. When I was looking to purchase a new car back in 2005, for the first time ever I thought I would give my local Audi dealer a try, as I was in the market for a Golf / Focus size car, but really liked the then new, Audi A3.
Went into the showroom and they had one on a turntable (the car had only been officially launched in the UK some months before). I looked everywhere for an indication of price (a placard, price list etc). With nothing to hand, I approached a sales lady who saw the wife and I looking over the car intently, however made no effort to get up off her arse and come over to me. When I said, "excuse me, do you have a price list for the new A3 please" (pointing to the car), her response floored me.....
She said (and I quote)........."They are quite expensive and you probably won't be able to afford one" !!! WTF, needless to say we left immediately and despite writing a letter to the dealer principle AND Audi UK complaining about my treatment, I didn't even get an acknowledgement for either of them (w*nkers).
I really like the new A3, and would seriously consider one again next time, but it's just the total apathy of the dealers that will prevent me ever stepping foot inside one again (unless of course one is recommended to me and treats me properly).
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Drisser - terrible experience but sadly not surprising.
I see your point about smaller dealers giving better service but not always the case.
My local VW dealer is an independant, and as such have never been able to offer good discounts, fair enough. But my main gripe is they have such an abysmal, couldn't-care-less attitude to getting, or more accurately not getting, your business. I could accept a lesser amount of discount if the service element was there but without it? No thanks!
When I was buying one of my Mk5's I practically had to beg them. It being my second Mk5 i wanted a certain spec and there was nothing in the VW network that matched, so I wanted a factory built car to my chosen spec. They were so resistant and reluctant to do that, I walked out and ordered the car through orangewheels - pain free, great discount, but most importantly got the car I wanted!
I didn't bother with them at all for the R, just went straight to DTD.
If you have a tried and trusted dealer then stick with them.
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I made similar experiences in the past.... VW Worcester belong to a large chain, I was not impressed with their service. Which is why I go to a dealer in Hereford now, they are a much smaller company, service I got from them is a million times better. Only downside is that it's a 45min drive rather than 15min but I can live with that.
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YUP
Our local Audi dealer is exactly the same drisser....
It must be some special training they get in being d%$kheads when they start working at a Audi dealership
Ken
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Agreed :evil: they are the most arrogant, lazy, condescending bunch of individuals you are likely to come across. They must be shipped in specially from Audi island !!
VW dealers don't escape the criticism either. The woeful bunch of Forrest Gumps at my local VW dealer are the most incompetent bunch of idiots ever from sales to service an extremely rich vein of ineptitude flows through every corner of that site. Last week out of need I had the misfortune to visit to try and pick up some G13 coolant only to be told the parts dept have moved 6 miles away and there is nothing on site anymore !!! That's going to work then !!!
This is the reason I drive 40 mins to my preferred dealership.
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Audi dealers are a bit lower on the evolutionary scale than traffic wardens and estate agents in general.
I do dislike it when they start chucking in extras you don't want like Lifeshine and GAP and start talking affordability in monthly terms rather than cost to change.
I went in for the missus's A1 order with a no bullsh!t attitude. I told the salesman straight that I had no p/x, gave him the Audi code for the exact car wanted and said "I could go through DTD and have a Scottish dealer supply me with the car and deliver it on a trailer. I'm ready to place a deposit for the order today, what can you do?
I humoured the sales patter on the financials for all of 2 mins (buying on finance purely to get deposit contribution and then clear immediately). He tried the "how much are you looking to pay per month?" on. I told him that I was working on discounted price as if the discount was right, the monthlies would pay for themselves. He didn't try it on too much.
This was the same salesman that sneered down at my mate when he was shopping for a new Audi after getting 5+bonus ball on the lottery, picking up £146k. He couldn't decide between a new A3 184TDI or a nearly new black edition A4 (he wouldn't dream of blowing it all on a car). When he mentioned the possibility of second hand, the saleman changed his tune as if my mate was a pauper.
My mate mentioned he could buy any car in the place, including an R8 V10 which was on display, then whipped out a balance slip from a cashpoint. The salesman took a look and my mate then said "but thanks to your attitude, i'll be buying from a different dealership!".
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I'll never forget the day when we were going to buy 2 Premium saloon cars. I went in first and negotiations went very well and we struck a deal, more or less. Then I sent my lady in and moved away so the salesman did not know our relationship. She was wearing a rather large diamond ring, and slightly smaller diamonds in each ear and a few other trinkets. I observed from afar the look on the salesman's face. He was transfixed but did not offer her as good a deal as I got. Then I went over and when he realised we were together, his face dropped and funnily enough he gave us an even better deal! So we bought from him!
Strange fruit, these car salesman.
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Amazing isn't it. Hard to believe the way some of them act. I'm a sales professional in a distribution business and even in our industry, sales guys are shocking.
My Father-In-Law has also been a sales professional for over 30 years, was the European Sales Director for a large blue chip company and now owns his own sales and marketing consultancy business so he's well aware of proper sales processes.
He and my Mother-In-Law went into a Land Rover garage at the weekend with a view to placing a firm order for a new Evoque to replace her 3 year old one. He owns a new Range Rover Sport and went into the dealer in Manchester with a printed configuration of the car they wanted generated from the LR website.
He made it quite clear that they were there to do a deal and shake hands on the day. No finance required, he simply wanted a part-ex price, a new car price and the difference to change. He said he would be trying several dealers but if the deal on the table seemed reasonable given delivery time was more important to him than price, then a deal was to be done. For me, this is the perfect customer to buy a new car.
The salesperson took an hour and a half to come back with some figures and said simply "part-ex is £XX,XXX, new car price is £XX,XXX so the difference and therefore cost to change is £XX,XXX. Go away, have a think about it and let me know if you might be interested in moving forward."
Shocking. He could have closed the deal there and then but didn't want to! Crazy fool.
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The majority of them are a bunch of guttersnipes. :sick:
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To be fair, pretty much everything here is about employee empowerment or rather lack of.
Its not just sales, its a problem that can infest your company in any part of it.
If you don't let your staff think on their feet and come up with creative solutions to keep their customers happy (be them internal or external) then your business suffers from rigidity to the point of suffocation.
The top bosses might think proudly that they run a tight ship and blah blah, but actually they just run a sh!t ship.
There you go, management consultancy on a VW forum, whatever next :laugh:
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To be fair, pretty much everything here is about employee empowerment or rather lack of.
Its not just sales, its a problem that can infest your company in any part of it.
If you don't let your staff think on their feet and come up with creative solutions to keep their customers happy (be them internal or external) then your business suffers from rigidity to the point of suffocation.
The top bosses might think proudly that they run a tight ship and blah blah, but actually they just run a sh!t ship.
There you go, management consultancy on a VW forum, whatever next :laugh:
I couldn't agree more. I used to work for Whitbread and they were just the kind of company for allowing zero flexibility or local enterprise amongst their staff. They simply chased the bottom line relentlessly at the expense of everything else. This approach ultimtately led to their undoing (in the area I worked). More fool them. The day I was made redundant was a great day!
The big boys are all the same,
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To be fair, pretty much everything here is about employee empowerment or rather lack of.
Its not just sales, its a problem that can infest your company in any part of it.
If you don't let your staff think on their feet and come up with creative solutions to keep their customers happy (be them internal or external) then your business suffers from rigidity to the point of suffocation.
The top bosses might think proudly that they run a tight ship and blah blah, but actually they just run a sh!t ship.
There you go, management consultancy on a VW forum, whatever next :laugh:
I think you're spot on there. They try and control the sales/pricing structure so much they get in the way of the customer relationship building and intangible part of the sales process.
People buy from people. They need to remember that.
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It honestly beggars belief how dealers behave. Some of these stories make me so mad. Indeed, I can add to it!
So last weekend I went to drive a Jaguar F-Type (great car btw!) - older salesman, old school. Talking figures etc, he went off to get a valuation for my R. They came back with £26K. This is a £38.5K car, and is 9 months old. I just laughed. He said that's the value that the VW garage within their group had given them. I told him to get onto Autotrader. He said I can do better than that, and looked at R's for sale in their group. The one they had was 6 months younger than mine, similar spec, on for £36k. He seemed a bit perplexed by this, and went back to his finance bloke.
A 12 year old then came out (said finance bloke). He said that's the price that VW have given us, based on CAP values etc etc. Ie. computer says no scenario. I asked him to explain how my car had lost £12.5K in 9 months. Couldn't answer me. I asked him to explain how the VW garage in his dealership were selling one very similar to mine for £36K. His explanation was because it had the bigger wheels and panaramic roof. Fair point, but does it had the DNS Pro and Carbon Nappa Leather....no.....hmmm, then we'll cancel those options out shall we. So, how can it be valued £10K more? Carried on banging on about CAP values. Sorry my friend, I'm not accepting VW making a £10K profit (I didn't say that). He then had the audacity to ask if I was going to place an order :grin:
This doesn't really explain his attitude. It was so rude and condesending it was unreal. The older salesman sat there looking highly embarrassed. I had thought that by dealing with a so called 'higher end' dealership there would be less of these conning sales tactics going on, unfortunately not. It's almost like they don't want to sell cars, and if they had matched my more than reasonable valuation of my car, they'd have secured a pretty easy sale. As it is, they can jog on!!
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It honestly beggars belief how dealers behave. Some of these stories make me so mad. Indeed, I can add to it!
So last weekend I went to drive a Jaguar F-Type (great car btw!) - older salesman, old school. Talking figures etc, he went off to get a valuation for my R. They came back with £26K. This is a £38.5K car, and is 9 months old. I just laughed. He said that's the value that the VW garage within their group had given them. I told him to get onto Autotrader. He said I can do better than that, and looked at R's for sale in their group. The one they had was 6 months younger than mine, similar spec, on for £36k. He seemed a bit perplexed by this, and went back to his finance bloke.
A 12 year old then came out (said finance bloke). He said that's the price that VW have given us, based on CAP values etc etc. Ie. computer says no scenario. I asked him to explain how my car had lost £12.5K in 9 months. Couldn't answer me. I asked him to explain how the VW garage in his dealership were selling one very similar to mine for £36K. His explanation was because it had the bigger wheels and panaramic roof. Fair point, but does it had the DNS Pro and Carbon Nappa Leather....no.....hmmm, then we'll cancel those options out shall we. So, how can it be valued £10K more? Carried on banging on about CAP values. Sorry my friend, I'm not accepting VW making a £10K profit (I didn't say that). He then had the audacity to ask if I was going to place an order :grin:
This doesn't really explain his attitude. It was so rude and condesending it was unreal. The older salesman sat there looking highly embarrassed. I had thought that by dealing with a so called 'higher end' dealership there would be less of these conning sales tactics going on, unfortunately not. It's almost like they don't want to sell cars, and if they had matched my more than reasonable valuation of my car, they'd have secured a pretty easy sale. As it is, they can jog on!!
Mark, are you thinking of selling already?
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Mark, are you thinking of selling already?
I would have done if they hadn't tried to screw me over! :grin:
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Mark, are you thinking of selling already?
I would have done if they hadn't tried to screw me over! :grin:
The F-type is a beautiful looking thing that's for sure. Just out of interest, have you become bored with the R?
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Mark, are you thinking of selling already?
I would have done if they hadn't tried to screw me over! :grin:
The F-type is a beautiful looking thing that's for sure. Just out of interest, have you become bored with the R?
Not bored, just fancy a change. The car still makes me smile as its very quick, and a lot of fun. Just fancy a different type of car for a bit. After all, counting the GTI, I've been in a mk 7 for 30,000 miles now, and that's a lot of miles to be in the same car (effectively). Plus I only have one child, so don't need two 5 door cars. And the F-Type is beautiful inside and out :drool: I've also looked at the new TT, as that's a fantastic looking car in and out as well. The Jag is only 0.1 secs quicker to 60, so its not the speed that's the issue, just the type of car. If you're interested, you can get a 10% discount straight off the bat with Jaguar at the moment :cool:
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Mark, are you thinking of selling already?
I would have done if they hadn't tried to screw me over! :grin:
The F-type is a beautiful looking thing that's for sure. Just out of interest, have you become bored with the R?
Not bored, just fancy a change. The car still makes me smile as its very quick, and a lot of fun. Just fancy a different type of car for a bit. After all, counting the GTI, I've been in a mk 7 for 30,000 miles now, and that's a lot of miles to be in the same car (effectively). Plus I only have one child, so don't need two 5 door cars. And the F-Type is beautiful inside and out :drool: I've also looked at the new TT, as that's a fantastic looking car in and out as well. The Jag is only 0.1 secs quicker to 60, so its not the speed that's the issue, just the type of car. If you're interested, you can get a 10% discount straight off the bat with Jaguar at the moment :cool:
Wow 10% is amazing on a car like the F-Type. As much as I would love one it is a little (or quite a lot) over my budget :grin: :grin: :cry:
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My colleague has the f-type. Really good looking, very quick, nice sounds (has the optional sports exhaust), great quality interior (on par with Audi I reckon)
Not very practical :)
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All I am going to say is...
Never try to arrange a test drive for an E Golf with Mann Egerton VW in Exeter...
James
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Mark - Be realistic - if you have a nine month old R to sell (ie highly in demand car) - why not just stick it on Pistonheads or similar and see what response you get at 32k.
if its encouraging just order the F-Type via a broker and complete bypass the retail route and pocket a substantial saving.
The private car retailers in the UK are not set up to create great deals and staggering discounts for customers - they exist to reap a profit from those that are uninformed about the alternative purchasing methods (ie the vast majority of potential customers).
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Haha, some great stories here. Another little anecdote I have is when I was test driving a GTI from Liverpool VW before I ordered mine, I drove past the Range Rover dealership in Liverpool. My brother was sat in the front and the sales guy in the back. I said:
"Ah my Father-In-Law has just ordered a new RR Sport from there"
The VW sales guy in the back chirped up and said: "He must be stupid, what a waste of money. He should save himself a fortune and buy a Jeep Cherokee. You get all the same toys in one."
Rather surprised, I turned to my brother and said...
"You know what, he's right and thinking about it, why the hell am I ordering a GTI?! I'll use the same logic and go and buy a Kia Pro'Ceed GT. You get all the same toys and I'll save myself nearly £10k!"
I looked in the rear view mirror and his face was a picture! He knew I was taking the p155.
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I worked as a sales guy in the car industry for about 5 years. BIG eye opener I have to say.
The amount of control exerted over the sales people is unbelievable. The idea of building relationships is totally false, and done under the sole pretense of "make them like you and they will be easier to deal up" (i.e. gift the dealership a very profitable deal.
So a decent guy who wants to work in sales to meet people and provide a good service is eaten up and spat out as a profit deranged monkey who wont follow basic customer service guidelines.
When the sales guy goes into the back to speak to the manager- you wont believe the conversations that take place - the fact that the public quite rightly feel defensive and patronised is because the sales process is designed that way, with the sole intention of ensuring the customer parts with as much money as possible.
Hence, the focus on monthly payments, inclusion of GAP/lifeshine/warranty etc.
More often than not, the sales process gets in the way of what should (and sometimes is) an enjoyable experience for both parties.
The entire industry is hopelessly outdated and archaic, too focused on profit, which is ironic as most dealerships would struggle to make a net 1-2% profit for the year.
They need to paid their sales people a decent flat salary and embark on a program similar to John Lewis, focus on service and putting the customer first.
Glad I'm out of it.
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Mark - Be realistic - if you have a nine month old R to sell (ie highly in demand car) - why not just stick it on Pistonheads or similar and see what response you get at 32k.
if its encouraging just order the F-Type via a broker and complete bypass the retail route and pocket a substantial saving.
The private car retailers in the UK are not set up to create great deals and staggering discounts for customers - they exist to reap a profit from those that are uninformed about the alternative purchasing methods (ie the vast majority of potential customers).
I totally see what you're saying. However I am being realistic. I know what my car is worth, and I also know the dealer needs to make a profit. My point being is that I'm not interested in making money on my car, but I'm not taking less that what it's worth just to line a stealer's pocket - they can make their profit, just not at the expense of mine!
I will have a look at pistonheads though, ta! Although now I'm thinking I want an M3 after seeing Tom Cruise ragging one in Mission Impossible Rogue Nation last night :laugh:
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Interesting post Domrees!
The other side of the coin, which I think I'm a little scared to mention on here, is that all over customers walk into shops and demand prices for products that they see on the internet (or in this case from brokers) when those prices are not actually feasible from a bricks and mortar retailer.
Thats not profit gouging, that's simply the high costs of a physical operation.
Shoot me if you like :laugh:
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Interesting post Domrees!
The other side of the coin, which I think I'm a little scared to mention on here, is that all over customers walk into shops and demand prices for products that they see on the internet (or in this case from brokers) when those prices are not actually feasible from a bricks and mortar retailer.
Thats not profit gouging, that's simply the high costs of a physical operation.
Shoot me if you like :laugh:
BANG! :laugh:
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The other side of the coin, which I think I'm a little scared to mention on here, is that all over customers walk into shops and demand prices for products that they see on the internet (or in this case from brokers) when those prices are not actually feasible from a bricks and mortar retailer.
How many do you think percentage wise actually do this? I don't think it will be that many.
Apart from on forums I don't know anyone who does this. I don't know if its out of naivety or they are just too scared to be that upfront. When I ordered my Golf and talking to folk who I work with, not one knew anything about brokers. They were genuinely surprised discounts like this could be had and sad to say some have since bought new cars and still paid full dealership prices :sick:
Not sure re your quote "(or in this case from brokers) when those prices are not actually feasible from a bricks and mortar retailer." as brokers just put you in contact with a bricks and mortar retailer! So in reality they are available gong this route. But then if everyone did this I agree the price would have to go up. Which brings me to my first point that not many folk go in asking for whats available online otherwise those getting a healthy discount would cease as the full paying customers would be no more :laugh:
Someone has to subside the broker prices :rolleyes:
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^^^^ The brokers tend to use the fleet department generally though Steve so different discounts, dealer bonuses and more importantly allocation will apply.
Hence the generally low part ex prices with broker bought cars - you order from the fleet department to get the fleet bonuses but your car gets bought through the retail side just like a trade bought car so they won't pay much more than auction price unless they really want it.
There's only so much money in any one car deal and they're not going to waste a salesman's valuable time on an internet purchase via a broker.
When I ordered my GTI is wasn't too long after the order books opened and there were literally dozens of broker bought cars on here that arrived quicker than my retail purchased car despite me getting an order number and tracking number almost immediately. That comes down to allocation.
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I prefer going to a main dealer even when it is for a lease.
Not a single broker could offer me a cheaper lease deal than my VW Dealer or a deal for a 3 year period. The brokers only had 2 year lease deals. On top of this I got a £750 dealer contribution. The other good thing is that I can continue with my cheap lease deal for an extra year after the 3 years is up and at a lower cost. I had this confirmed by VWFS.