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Model specific boards => Golf mk7 => Golf mk7 GTD/TDI => Topic started by: fredgroves on 16 February 2015, 09:16
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Ok, so I went out yesterday to try and map out a pattern of wheel hop and things that might make a difference.
After finding a safe piece of private road (*ahem*) I had a few goes to nail down exactly how I could create the problem. Basically accelerate from about 15mph in second with a swift boot of the pedal.
The road was dry and the car reported a temp of about 8 degrees.
My GTD is a manual with no tuning. I have DCC.
After trying it all in "normal" mode I tried changing DCC to comfort and sport by changing the settings in Individual mode (so only the suspension changed). Sport seemed to create less hop - which maybe is to be expected as the drive train becomes stiffer?
I also tried turning off stability control.... now this really does seem to kill it.
Whether or not you'd feel happy driving around with all of the electronic safety net turned off is up to you, but it does seem to to fix it.
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Interesting stuff Fred! Which tyres are you running again?
I've only had tramping/hops in first gear, and don't recall ever having it until the tyres were more worn (6000 or so).
Interesting thing for me is most of the time when I am giving it some I am in sport mode, so his may explain why I've had even less issues than some.
Conti sport 2's and DCC.
I have yet to try ESC off! :)
Vreds are going on this week so I will report back on those.
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Sorry, I should have said, the OEM Tombstones had gone in the bin and I've got Goodyears on the front now.... and still hopping like a mf'er.
BTW when I turned off the ESC, I did it in the menus to knock it back to maximum off (you can't kill it all on a Mk7)
This was last little muck about to try and nail it, before I consider some new hard suspension bits :)
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I'm not an expert in this field, I've had my GTD for about a month now; DSG with Pirelli's which are supposed to be pretty sticky tyres but even I've been getting some tramping and wheel spin when I give it some wellie, especially off the line and especially if it's wet.
Now as I said I'm not an expert but IMO if you're going give it some off the line / doing 15mph or less in 1st / 2nd gear you're going to get wheel spin no matter what tyres you've got on. The car has 180 brake and nearly 300 lb/ft of torque! That's a lot of power going through the front wheels and any tyre is going to struggle to cope.
Now of course some cope better than others and I'm looking forward to trying some Michelins when these P Zeros run out. But the reason I say all this is because I've been chucking my car round a few corners and roundabouts in the last couple of weeks and even in the wet I couldn't get anywhere near the limits of the grip. It's like the car wasn't even trying. There was clearly huge amounts of grip even in the wet when going round corners but if I floor it or even give it 70% throttle in the wet in 1st / 2nd gear I get wheel spin.
That's just my opinion though I'm sure others will have different experiences.
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There is a difference though between wheel spin and wheel hop - the former is just the tyre spinning up because of lack of grip... but wheel hop is something altogether different - its the banging noise like someone taking a hammer to the car.
Spin might decrease your acceleration, hopping creates a violent reaction that can damage your drivetrain!
It seems the hopping is caused by a harmonic in the drivetrain and possibly its initiated by loss of grip but I'm starting to think its then amplified by the ESC... the intervention the car makes for traction control is to back off the throttle for a short moment, but then the throttle comes back in and then out... making a pendulum effect...
Obviously you can avoid the situation by having front tyres that have better grip to start with (and the road being dry... or warm) but we live in the UK and our roads are sh*t and the OEM tyres hate the cold...or wet.
I'm strictly an amateur with this stuff, I'd be interested in some of the more petrol headed sorts chucking in their 2 pence...
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When ever I get wheel spin it is (sometimes) accompanied with a fairly large judder that feels like it comes through the dashboard. Would you class that as wheel hop / tramping?
I always thought it did that because even though the wheels are spinning they (intermittently) grip the surface and cause the wheels to judder which then resonates through the dashboard and into the car. Therefore I just thought wheel spin / hop were one and the same thing. :huh:
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I've got the conti 2's and dcc on my gtd and have never had wheel hop. Only recently had spin but that's due to the tyres wearing. Has something not come lose in the engine bay Fred that might cause this hop?
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I don't think anything has come loose... although it might sound like it!
With the Tombstones gone, its definitely better... but still reproducable with a firm application of right foot.
The thing I've noticed is that the road surface temperature can be much colder now before I see it with the Goodyears.
I still reckon the PS3's would be better still.... (*%%^$%^ lease company buggers!)
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I still reckon the PS3's would be better still.... (*%%^$%^ lease company buggers!)
PS3's... that's what my lease company put on... I've not had the tramping with either the PS3s or the Conti SportContact 2s the car cam with...
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Not totally familiar with the wheel hop issues on Golf 7 GTD, but on all previous Golf chassis types it is closely related to gearbox and engine mounts – because they allow some movement to absorb vibrations etc, the standard mounts reverberate under duress, eg excessive drivetrain torque reaction. The trick to ameliorate wheel hop / tramp on the Mk 4 Golf was always to fit the uprated "dogbone" mount, also on the Mk 5/6 chassis to fit the poly inserts into the voids of the standard bottom mount. I presume that there are, by now, uprated gearbox and engine mounts available for the Mk 7 too... eg Volkswagen Racing
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Not totally familiar with the wheel hop issues on Golf 7 GTD, but on all previous Golf chassis types it is closely related to gearbox and engine mounts – because they allow some movement to absorb vibrations etc, the standard mounts reverberate under duress, eg excessive drivetrain torque reaction. The trick to ameliorate wheel hop / tramp on the Mk 4 Golf was always to fit the uprated "dogbone" mount, also on the Mk 5/6 chassis to fit the poly inserts into the voids of the standard bottom mount. I presume that there are, by now, uprated gearbox and engine mounts available for the Mk 7 too... eg Volkswagen Racing
it is not just the engine mounts. The suspension allows some flex for the same reason (rubber bushes)...
Uprated engine mounts and bushes may alleviate the issue somewhat but at the expense of dramatically increased vibration and significantly harsher ride... the cure may be worse than the disease for a daily driver...
There is another answer... in the cold and/or wet use less throttle... or buy some different tyres... :cool:
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Read about uprated engine mounts here:
http://volkswagenracing.co.uk/parts/vwr-uprated-lower-engine-mount/
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Interesting, but not for a GTD :(
Am I right in saying that changing the engine mount shouldnt actually effect the ride?
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The uprated mounts will not affect the ride... but will transmit more engine vibration into the cabin... not sure how much though.
The vendors of this stuff won't give you the downside...
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I guess nobody fits performance parts to increase comfort :D
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I fitted the neuspeed insert, made barley any difference in terms of vibration, honestly. I fitted a neuspeed one to my diesel FR and it was horrible, shook my car apart, do not get one with a diesel if you don't want an even more rattly car.
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Maybe thats why I can't seem to find anyone offering one!
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Maybe thats why I can't seem to find anyone offering one!
Apologies mate it was powerflex not neuspeed http://www.awesomegti.com/brand/powerflex/powerflex-bush-pff85-504r-68406
But you tell me if there is any difference lol http://www.awesomegti.com/car/vw/golf-mk-7/neuspeed-engine-torque-arm-insert
that neuspeed one looks like it will fit your car, but its at your own comfort risk.
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Actually, that second link does say:
NOTE: Urethane is not as compliant as rubber. As a result, you may notice a slight increase in ride harshess and engine vibration after installation. Not recommeded for TDI vehicles.
Sounds like its not a good plan :)
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Uprated suspension bushes it is then, dont know whose pumping them out yet but powerflex would be a good shout to start at.
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Interesting thread but.... I've done 15k miles on S001's and 6k miles on PS3's and only ever had tramping once on the Bridgestones. I live in Cumbria so there is plenty of opportunity to get a shift on as the traffic levels are pretty low. Getting to the point, I can't see what all the fuss is about, the best traction control is the driver, you can choose the gear, the throttle opening, steering angle etc much better than an ECU.
If you floor it everywhere and expect the car to cope with it then you'll get spin and tramp. Simples.
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But why should you have to pull away at a relative crawl to ensure you get away from a roundabout? Knowing that better rubber available at the same price-point will allow you to pull away from a standstill with a lot more vigour makes me think VW could have done better for their performance models. Only being able to confidently use 1/3 of the throttle to get moving when there's a gap on a busy roundabout is not why I expected with my GTD, especially when my previous car (Scirocco 170TDI) didn't tramp at all.
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Interesting thread but.... I've done 15k miles on S001's and 6k miles on PS3's and only ever had tramping once on the Bridgestones. I live in Cumbria so there is plenty of opportunity to get a shift on as the traffic levels are pretty low. Getting to the point, I can't see what all the fuss is about, the best traction control is the driver, you can choose the gear, the throttle opening, steering angle etc much better than an ECU.
If you floor it everywhere and expect the car to cope with it then you'll get spin and tramp. Simples.
Could not agree more, I work in Road Safety for the Fire service most accidents are down to excessive speed
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Interesting thread but.... I've done 15k miles on S001's and 6k miles on PS3's and only ever had tramping once on the Bridgestones. I live in Cumbria so there is plenty of opportunity to get a shift on as the traffic levels are pretty low. Getting to the point, I can't see what all the fuss is about, the best traction control is the driver, you can choose the gear, the throttle opening, steering angle etc much better than an ECU.
If you floor it everywhere and expect the car to cope with it then you'll get spin and tramp. Simples.
Could not agree more, I work in Road Safety for the Fire service most accidents are down to excessive speed
Excessive speed from pulling away from a static start? How soon do you think you'll be at "excessive speed"? It's more unsafe to give you a car with slippery Bridgestones that might allow you to get your nose out on a roundabout and potentially leave you floundering there tramping while that gap you had to go closes as the next car coming round finds you in their path not moving very quickly at all.
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Interesting thread but.... I've done 15k miles on S001's and 6k miles on PS3's and only ever had tramping once on the Bridgestones. I live in Cumbria so there is plenty of opportunity to get a shift on as the traffic levels are pretty low. Getting to the point, I can't see what all the fuss is about, the best traction control is the driver, you can choose the gear, the throttle opening, steering angle etc much better than an ECU.
If you floor it everywhere and expect the car to cope with it then you'll get spin and tramp. Simples.
Could not agree more, I work in Road Safety for the Fire service most accidents are down to excessive speed
Excessive speed from pulling away from a static start? How soon do you think you'll be at "excessive speed"? It's more unsafe to give you a car with slippery Bridgestones that might allow you to get your nose out on a roundabout and potentially leave you floundering there tramping while that gap you had to go closes as the next car coming round finds you in their path not moving very quickly at all.
easy tiger :smiley:
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VW should be putting rubber on the car that's appropriate to the car, if you buy a performance car you expect cars that will allow it to perform well. You don't have to be driving like a nutter for Bridgestones to let you down often, you probably have to be driving like a nun all the time for them not to.
I don't think it's coincidence that when you see nearly new Prets/Cadiz/Nogaros etc on ebay.de (presumably they're going for something aftermarket like Oz etc), they are not coming on Bridgestone rubber, they're coming on Michelins and Continentals. Most would deduce that for their domestic market, VW fit better tyres than we in the UK get dealt, perhaps down to our complacent "it'll have to do" attitude and reluctance to complain.
I see the complaint culture of the world on a daily basis in my job, dealing with technical complaints for a large pharmaceutical company. The Fins and the Germans demand perfection (a crease in a carton that hold their tablets will not be tolerated), our complaints per million packs figure is about 5x higher for Germany than it is for the UK.
If we are prepared to sit back and accept sh!te tyres that hamper the potential of the product to the point of frequent frustration behind the wheel, just to save VW probably a Euro per tyre, then VW will deliver. Crap tyres and crap wiper blades, should we really be needing to immediately spend money to make a £25-30k car what it should have been in the first place?
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Well said Matt.
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It is not really a "performance car"... more a warm hatch. It is quite badly compromised from a performance perspective by being front wheel drive. That in combination with significant torque will mean that wheelspin is likely at wide throttle openings at low speed.
Now the tramping issue. I'd never had tramping (the original fronts were Contis, replaced by PS3s). Today, in the interests of science :smiley: , I left a gap in a queue on the M6 and nailed it from a standing start... The much vaunted PS3s tramped :shocked: . Admittedly, I was fairly brutal... so is it a tyre issue? Partly. Is it a suspension design/construction issue? Partly. Is it a road surface issue? Partly. Is it a temperature issue? Partly.
I feel that with the Bridgestones, there is an issue that is not solely down to the tyres but a combination of factors...
We've agreed the Bridgestone tyres aren't great.
Have you tried reducing the tyre pressures a little to see if that helps? With the stiff sidewall - which I think along with the compound is the issue here - running them at the same pressure as the much softer sidewalled PS3 (or whatever) would seem illogical. Reducing the tyre pressure will allow more sidewall flex, generate more heat as well as increasing the contact patch slightly.
I'm not suggesting much, no more than perhaps 3-4 lbs/sq inch...
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But why should you have to pull away at a relative crawl to ensure you get away from a roundabout? Knowing that better rubber available at the same price-point will allow you to pull away from a standstill with a lot more vigour makes me think VW could have done better for their performance models. Only being able to confidently use 1/3 of the throttle to get moving when there's a gap on a busy roundabout is not why I expected with my GTD, especially when my previous car (Scirocco 170TDI) didn't tramp at all.
VW should be putting rubber on the car that's appropriate to the car, if you buy a performance car you expect cars that will allow it to perform well. You don't have to be driving like a nutter for Bridgestones to let you down often, you probably have to be driving like a nun all the time for them not to.
I don't think it's coincidence that when you see nearly new Prets/Cadiz/Nogaros etc on ebay.de (presumably they're going for something aftermarket like Oz etc), they are not coming on Bridgestone rubber, they're coming on Michelins and Continentals. Most would deduce that for their domestic market, VW fit better tyres than we in the UK get dealt, perhaps down to our complacent "it'll have to do" attitude and reluctance to complain.
I see the complaint culture of the world on a daily basis in my job, dealing with technical complaints for a large pharmaceutical company. The Fins and the Germans demand perfection (a crease in a carton that hold their tablets will not be tolerated), our complaints per million packs figure is about 5x higher for Germany than it is for the UK.
If we are prepared to sit back and accept sh!te tyres that hamper the potential of the product to the point of frequent frustration behind the wheel, just to save VW probably a Euro per tyre, then VW will deliver. Crap tyres and crap wiper blades, should we really be needing to immediately spend money to make a £25-30k car what it should have been in the first place?
Jesus,
I hope you get something other than Bridgestone on your new car and give us all some peace...
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Have you tried reducing the tyre pressures a little to see if that helps?
If nothing else, it will wear the buggers out quicker :D
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Jesus,
I hope you get something other than Bridgestone on your new car and give us all some peace...
So do I, can't you tell? :grin:
If not, i'll give you first refusal on them when I swap them out for something with more grip. :whistle:
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I am not disputing that some Bridgestone users have problems. But I didn't experience the problem before I wore them out and swapped them for PS3's. And the PS3's have a much better ride quality, problem solved for £400.
No road car is perfect, I'm fortunate enough to have access to some really nice and very expensive cars and I can quickly find a reason why I would be disappointed with them at £30k never mind £150k plus.
Not sure how qualified I am but I am an MSA licence holder and compete in hillclimbs , sprints and tarmac rallies and have a garage full of different compound race/rallytyres. I know that wheelspin will result in a rubbish time and I really am not interested in spinning the wheels on a Golf GTD on the road. It is after all a big heavy car as is the R and I've yet to see one of those been driven at more than legal speeds on the road. I wonder how long it would be before the clutch starts slipping in an R when practicing some "race mode" starts :) And that's before you find out how crap 19" alloys are on any real roads in the North of England, but hey who cares about unsprung weight just feel the bling! I'll get my coat.
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I am not disputing that some Bridgestone users have problems. But I didn't experience the problem before I wore them out and swapped them for PS3's. And the PS3's have a much better ride quality, problem solved for £400.
No road car is perfect, I'm fortunate enough to have access to some really nice and very expensive cars and I can quickly find a reason why I would be disappointed with them at £30k never mind £150k plus.
Not sure how qualified I am but I am an MSA licence holder and compete in hillclimbs , sprints and tarmac rallies and have a garage full of different compound race/rallytyres. I know that wheelspin will result in a rubbish time and I really am not interested in spinning the wheels on a Golf GTD on the road. It is after all a big heavy car as is the R and I've yet to see one of those been driven at more than legal speeds on the road. I wonder how long it would be before the clutch starts slipping in an R when practicing some "race mode" starts :) And that's before you find out how crap 19" alloys are on any real roads in the North of England, but hey who cares about unsprung weight just feel the bling! I'll get my coat.
Wow,, I bet Lewis is quaking in his Formula 1 boots :grin:
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Grip aside, might be nice to swap Bridgestones for lower noise and a nicer ride anyway. If Ford can give you a tyre menu for the Transit van in it's higher trim levels, it is something VW could look to do for the GTD, GTI and R. I'd pay an extra £100 to get Michelin PSS over RE050s every time.
Yes, 19"ers are primarily for the looks (unsprung weight differences? Anyone telling us that will make a huge difference on the road is kidding themselves), and I wouldn't normally partake in a frivolous extra like that for what VW are charging for them, but i've come to really dislike the look of the Cadiz wheels on certain colours, especially the one i've chosen (Lapiz). If i'd have gone DBP I may well have stuck with the Cadiz.
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Wow,, I bet Lewis is quaking in his Formula 1 boots :grin:
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No he's hopping mad that he had to use Bridgestone's for years and now he's stuck with Pirellis.
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I personally find using sport traction mode seems to work well with the GTI. Have you guys tried it ?
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Update on my car, as mentioned above I could only recreate tramping in 1st gear (if at all), and never in 2nd gear.
I now have new tyres on the front, vredesteins, and increased bhp thanks to a dtuk box. On some testing today I was getting tramping in 1st gear if flooring it, but I could not replicate any tramping in second gear. This was on damp roads also.
I am thinking there must be another factor at play here. If Fred, you can replicate tramping reliably in 2nd gear, and I can't even with 240bhp going through the front tyres, something doesn't add up!
So, just a thought, but could the missing factor be wheel balance?
If you google causes for wheel tramping the most common reason is unbalanced wheels. Could the big variances we are all seeing in the behavior actually be as simple as some suspect quality control on wheel balancing at the VW factory? It could even be some bad batches of glue and a few weights dropping off on the journey over... who knows. Or, perhaps the Bridgestones have even more weight variance than some of the other brands, making them even more sensitive to being properly balanced. :huh:
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I personally find using sport traction mode seems to work well with the GTI. Have you guys tried it ?
Actually, yes, in my original posts on this thread, if you drop ESC into maximum off (quite what its called escapes me at the moment) it did seem to kill it.
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Update on my car, as mentioned above I could only recreate tramping in 1st gear (if at all), and never in 2nd gear.
I now have new tyres on the front, vredesteins, and increased bhp thanks to a dtuk box. On some testing today I was getting tramping in 1st gear if flooring it, but I could not replicate any tramping in second gear. This was on damp roads also.
I am thinking there must be another factor at play here. If Fred, you can replicate tramping reliably in 2nd gear, and I can't even with 240bhp going through the front tyres, something doesn't add up!
The DTUK box might well (in fact almost certainly) have a different power curve though surely?
Maybe that's the answer, if I just add a huge pile of extra power, it all goes away.... I'm off to convince my fleet manager that its a safety measure :D
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I actually found I wheel spun less with my DTUK box than I did standard, always thought it was strange but then my Bcs was quieter with the box on too so they may be linked, possibly smoother but obviously larger climb on the dyno graph? I dont know as I didnt look too much into it.
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Jesus,
I hope you get something other than Bridgestone on your new car and give us all some peace...
So do I, can't you tell? :grin:
If not, i'll give you first refusal on them when I swap them out for something with more grip. :whistle:
lol,
I like your thinking :wink:
But will be switching to Michelin compound when i need to, as I always prefer Michelin for a replacement to improve the original factory fitted tyre
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Jesus,
I hope you get something other than Bridgestone on your new car and give us all some peace...
So do I, can't you tell? :grin:
If not, i'll give you first refusal on them when I swap them out for something with more grip. :whistle:
Even if you get Bridgestones on your R MH, its far less of an issue. I haven't had any tramping at all, in fact, the only time the ESP light has flashed I didn't feel a thing as (I assume) the power was shifted to another wheel - only reason I knew it was on was because the warning light was flashing.
That's not to say they're as grippy as other tyres - that's another issue, particularly in the wet - but as far as tramping goes, either from a standing start (normal or launch control) or nailing it at low speeds, I've not encountered any tramping.
I will still be swapping them asap as soon as I've gone through them however!
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Jesus,
I hope you get something other than Bridgestone on your new car and give us all some peace...
So do I, can't you tell? :grin:
If not, i'll give you first refusal on them when I swap them out for something with more grip. :whistle:
Even if you get Bridgestones on your R MH, its far less of an issue. I haven't had any tramping at all, in fact, the only time the ESP light has flashed I didn't feel a thing as (I assume) the power was shifted to another wheel - only reason I knew it was on was because the warning light was flashing.
That's not to say they're as grippy as other tyres - that's another issue, particularly in the wet - but as far as tramping goes, either from a standing start (normal or launch control) or nailing it at low speeds, I've not encountered any tramping.
I will still be swapping them asap as soon as I've gone through them however!
I'm pretty sure i'll be getting mine swapped out, poor wet grip is not something I want, even if the 4WD sorts the traction out. £90 each or £320 for the set anyone?
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I'm pretty sure i'll be getting mine swapped out, poor wet grip is not something I want, even if the 4WD sorts the traction out. £90 each or £320 for the set anyone?
I think you should put them on eBay and post your reviews from here and see if they sell :D In all seriousness I'm sure they would go on Gumtree if there's no takers.
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Update on my car, as mentioned above I could only recreate tramping in 1st gear (if at all), and never in 2nd gear.
I now have new tyres on the front, vredesteins, and increased bhp thanks to a dtuk box. On some testing today I was getting tramping in 1st gear if flooring it, but I could not replicate any tramping in second gear. This was on damp roads also.
I am thinking there must be another factor at play here. If Fred, you can replicate tramping reliably in 2nd gear, and I can't even with 240bhp going through the front tyres, something doesn't add up!
The DTUK box might well (in fact almost certainly) have a different power curve though surely?
Maybe that's the answer, if I just add a huge pile of extra power, it all goes away.... I'm off to convince my fleet manager that its a safety measure :D
I believe the curve is very similar up to 1800 (the box adds about 10bhp from 0-1800 from what I can see) and then the big increase feeds in from 1800. This is in map 3+1 at least (which I tested with).
So mine and Graham's results seem strange, but yes, the logical conclusion is... more power! (To quote Clarkson).
Your fleet manager can't argue with this logic, surely!
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ffrank: The DTUK box added very little to mine pre-turbo (as you might expect, the engine is probably only kicking out 95ps and 200Nm without the turbo), you can feel the difference a little between 1700-2100rpm, but it felt far more noticeable above 2100rpm.
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Yes, agreed - it's a small addition pre-turbo but still feels very noticeable (smoother is the word I would use). I guess it is from some increased fueling?
I can't find the more recent dyno's anymore (with Trevor comparison), but here is one of the earlier ones that I checked earlier when I estimated the extra 10bhp pre turbo.
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c109/ABYSS69/ABYSS69010/shark_zpsa9da753d.jpg)
On this dyno (pre full development of 3+1 of course!) the real boost happens around 1900, and Max torque at 2150 which seems inline with your observations.
As an aside, all of your comments and reviews (and no doubt feedback for tweaks to Andrew) of the DTUK really were spot on! Not that I ever doubted it, but it's transformed the car - and not just in a boy racer way (as fun as that is) but in smoothness and driveability. But I best shut up about it, sorry Fred! :)