GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk7 => Topic started by: GrahamFR on 03 October 2014, 10:57
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If you believe hard enough it might just happen :smiley:
http://www.passat.com/gb/en/home.html?page=features§ion=areaContent-Performance&modal=3.3.1-BiTurbo.html
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Very interesting! So a bi-turbo TDI does exist. But will it make it to the Golf GTD(R)?
Some other good tech mentioned too. ACC that steers in heavy traffic. How about that.
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Everyone I've spoken to who is remotely mechanically minded (ie not me!) says the current crop of bi-turbo engines are fiddly fail prone things.
Not quite sure why VW would want to push 240ps like that, when the current proven design will definitely go there anyway (as DTUK and friends prove easily!).
Some other interesting new bits of VW (Bosch!) technology on that page though, you can see that the truly smart car is only just around the corner.
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engine bay in the passat and the golf cant be that different so i see now real reason why they cant put this and the awd system into a golf if they really wanted to.
And yeah i agree 240 from a single turbo is easy, think the D5 has done it for a while now, but think of the tuning potential :grin: ok its still gonna be way behind petrol but 300 bhp should be easy from it :smiley:
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Have you seen the prices of the bi-turbo Passats? The difference in price between the Bi-turbo and single turbo 190PS ultra for both the GT and the R-line spec is £5100. Are they for real? Unless the Bi-turbo comes with leather seat and bigger wheels, I can;t see where 3/4 of that £5100 is coning from.
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I went to compare the Vauxhall costs for their TDI Bi-Turbo.... but it seems you can't spec it anymore.
Can't find out why, but suspect its the same reliability issues I mentioned...
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cant really compare opel's crap old tech, slower than the current gtd, to this bad boy. ze germans love a good derv, so i retain the faith here
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Hasn't this been around for a while in the transporter?
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true the transporter has had a biturbo for a while but not this potent, its gotta be a different engine
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....
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Have you seen the prices of the bi-turbo Passats? The difference in price between the Bi-turbo and single turbo 190PS ultra for both the GT and the R-line spec is £5100. Are they for real? Unless the Bi-turbo comes with leather seat and bigger wheels, I can;t see where 3/4 of that £5100 is coning from.
Probably built in costs for expected warranty claims!!! :laugh:
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Everyone I've spoken to who is remotely mechanically minded (ie not me!) says the current crop of bi-turbo engines are fiddly fail prone things.
That's one opinion... I had a BMW 123d M-Sport and didn't have a single issue in 50K miles... a fine engine it was too...
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It sounds like a good idea in principle.
Day to day the economy is likely to be little better than a GTI but you get the possible hassle of an extra turbo and the DPF/SCR system.
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Likely poor traction from standstill. Quicker through the gears than a gti (just), but can't see the 0-62 time improving much because of all that torque that can't be put down initially (unless you get 4-motion).
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Likely poor traction from standstill. Quicker through the gears than a gti (just), but can't see the 0-62 time improving much because of all that torque that can't be put down initially (unless you get 4-motion).
The golf r is awd so theoretically a gtd r would/could also be awd
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Yeah, can't see VW not offering it with 4wd to get that sort of torque down.
I recently had a drive out in a 335D x drive and if it didn't have 4wd it would have just dug itself into a hole in the Tarmac with the driven wheels they'd have spun that much! I'm Sure the twin turbo VW motor would have similar torque to weight ratio as the hefty BMW.
I'd say a GTD-R would be the perfect road car (assuming 4wd)
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well you can only get this engine in an awd passat so i doubt it would be released 2wd for a golf
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I went to compare the Vauxhall costs for their TDI Bi-Turbo.... but it seems you can't spec it anymore.
Actually, you can spec it - its 3500 quid extra (list) for a 195PS biturbo vs a 165PS single turbo TDI.
Madness!
Mind you, they want a similar amount of money for a 140PS vs the 165PS TDI.
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well you can only get this engine in an awd passat so i doubt it would be released 2wd for a golf
Well that AWD goes to explain some of the £5100 extra the BiTurbo Passat costs. Assuming £1500 (isn't that about how much Audi charges to go Quattro?) for the Haldex, £3600 is still a lot to be asking for 56PS extra on a GTD-R. If it can put all that power down, you're probably talking about a 0-62 time of around 6.3 seconds (faster than a GTI PP, but not by much due to the 90Kg ish weight disadvantage.
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Well that AWD goes to explain some of the £5100 extra the BiTurbo Passat costs. Assuming £1500 (isn't that about how much Audi charges to go Quattro?) for the Haldex, £3600 is still a lot to be asking for 56PS extra on a GTD-R. If it can put all that power down, you're probably talking about a 0-62 time of around 6.3 seconds (faster than a GTI PP, but not by much due to the 90Kg ish weight disadvantage.
Distinguishing between quattro and haldex is not that simple... Audi uses the terms quattro to mean booth the permanent 4WD system and their implementation of the Haldex system. They can be distinguished by the alignment of the engine... all longitudinally installed = traditional quattro whereas the transverse installations are all Haldex...
Why is there such an interest in 0-60 or 0-62 times on this site?
It is a very poor measure of performance... unless, of course, you treat every time you stop at a set of lights as a drag race. If that's the case (possibly with the exception of the R) you have the wrong car... you should have gone rear or 4 wheel drive... a 1978 3.0 Porsche 911 SC with 180bhp would give a Golf GTI a tough battle 0-60...
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It may be because it's a measure that's universally accepted. For me, in a high performance diesel, it's a measure of grip, which FWD performance diesels regularly lack with all that torque. Faster 0-62 = more grip on a modern diesel with 150+ ps, we've all seen what a difference there is on the times with and without Quattro on the A3.
Grip is one of the things I'm most looking forward to in the R, being able to put that power down (ok, in my case, some of my current GTD issues may be Bridgestone related).
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It may be because it's a measure that's universally accepted. For me, in a high performance diesel, it's a measure of grip, which FWD performance diesels regularly lack with all that torque. Faster 0-62 = more grip on a modern diesel with 150+ ps, we've all seen what a difference there is on the times with and without Quattro on the A3.
Grip is one of the things I'm most looking forward to in the R, being able to put that power down (ok, in my case, some of my current GTD issues may be Bridgestone related).
It is universally quoted by car magazines and blokes in the pub. Most car journalists (with the exception of Clarkson) recognise that it is a very poor indication of overall performance because nobody - except maybe professional drag racers - engages in such things as a matter of course. A better measure would be standing quarter mile (although this is still heavily traction related) but the difference is much smaller because the traction component is a much smaller percentage of the total...
Look up a guy called David Vizzard, he used to drag race a Hillman Avenger with about 70bhp and he used to embarrass some quite powerful stuff, for two reasons: (1) he could drive (2) he had made sure his car could use as much of the 70bhp as it could generate...
Imagine (and you can calculate this - have a look at www.torquestats.com) three cars 181 bhp, 1350kgs the cars are the only difference between these imaginary cars is that 1 is FWD, 1 RWD and the other 4WD.
FWD: 0-60 7.6 seconds, standing quarter 16.2 @ 88mph
4WD: 0-60 7.3 seconds, standing quarter 16.0 @ 85mph
RWD: 0.60 7.6 seconds, standing quarter 16.1 @ 86mph
You'll find these calculated figures are remarkably accurate and the differences are really minute, 0.3 seconds in a 0-60 sprint is barely a good car's length and the 0.2 seconds over a standing quarter is even less...
That is because by far the biggest factor in these performance figures is power:weight and you need quite a lot of the first or significant reduction in the second to make a difference.
The calculated figures for my 911 (320bhp ~1350kgs):
4WD: 0-60 4.5 seconds, standing quarter 12.9 @ 107mph
For an increase in power of about 140bhp, I get a three second gain from 0-60 which rises to 3.3 over the rest of the quarter mile.
And now here's the rub: a driver of equal skill in both cars on a mountain pass and the Porsche would disappear up the road into the distance at a rate of knots... Interestingly, their values are very similar.
Equally, is suspect my mythical 4WD GTD would inexorably pull away in the scenario described in spite of the fact the performance figures are very close. I'm not sure it is all about traction but probably more to do with the extra stability and therefore confidence that the 4WD system offers...
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Given my very poor traction from a standstill and generally in 2nd (with 1/2 throttle in the damp) and 3rd (with 2/3 throttle in the damp), i'd welcome seeing a shorter published 0-62 time for the GTD-R, primarily for confidence in the extra grip that 4WD affords, we all know the GTD is poor off the line for reasons of grip (worsened with poor tyres like Bridgestones). These experiences are told on stock power, before I even got my DTUK box.
If it was just a standing start in 1st that was slippery, I could shrug that off (i'm not a traffic light dragster), but putting my foot down in 3rd and worrying about the traction control stepping in (or even worse, if it doesn't when it should) really spoils my enjoyment of the GTD.
Your examples of FWD cars catching up over a 1/4 mile drag against RWD and 4WD competition are all well and good for a car that's only short of grip initially from a standstill and not through the gears (with the lighter FWD paying dividends later on in the drag), but do that theory on a Bridgestone-shod GTD and you'll have to rein in the throttle even when you're moving on the FWD car, making it way slower than it should be. A 4WD GTD with the same output would probably gallop it because the gains made early on with being able to give it everything would be too hard for the FWD one to overcome later on. The FWD may be needing to hold back on giving everything until it hits 4th at a likely 75mph in the wet, and hitting 3rd at a likely 50mph in the dry.
If I get Bridgestones on the R it won't be a disaster, because the 4WD will help a lot, but on the GTD it is. With such a strong pull from the GTD, it was extremely shortsighted of VW to allow Bridgestones on it, possibly saved them a pound a tyre.
I shouldn't have been such a tightarse and got them swapped with Michelin PS3s on day 1! :grin:
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I wondered how long it would take corgi to trot out a 911 comparison :grin:
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I wondered how long it would take corgi to trot out a 911 comparison :grin:
I used it because it was an example I know from the real world and could make a valid comparison based on experience not guess work :tongue:
As for MonkeyHanger's statements about tyres. When I had my Michelins fitted in June(?) I found them to be pretty good, with the recent temperature drop I've noticed that traction is once again becoming an issue that it wasn't with the Continentals that were on originally. I agree the Bridgestone tyres are pretty poor for traction when they are cold based on my experience with a BMW 120d, although the equivalent 19" ones on the g/f's 320d M-Sport seem to suffer less in this regard. I always found that once you get the Bridgestones up to temperature (which is difficult when it is cold and wet) they were OK (but this was on a rear wheel drive car)...
I'm sure the Michelins are better as regards traction in most conditions, where they certainly are better is that they offer better secondary ride and more steering feel (softer side walls?) and seem, to me at least, to be quieter.
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See the new Passat is on the configurator. The R-Line BITDI looks like an easy £40k car with a couple of must have options (can't believe a £35k car doesn't have the LED headlights as standard). As nice as it is I don't think I'd choose one over a 330d M-Sport xDrive.
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I think I'd go BMW too, that Passat looks a bit of an ugly brute!
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See the new Passat is on the configurator. The R-Line BITDI looks like an easy £40k car with a couple of must have options (can't believe a £35k car doesn't have the LED headlights as standard). As nice as it is I don't think I'd choose one over a 330d M-Sport xDrive.
LED lights are standard on the R Line
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So they are. "LED Headlights with LED Daytime Running Lights and Dynamic Cornering Lights" are listed as standard, but "LED Headlights with LED Running Lights" are a £705 option. How does that work?
Either way I think it looks like a mighty expensive car. Like it though.
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The options are never right on the VW site. Would need to see one in the flesh to be sure but I like it.
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Interesting that they only offer the Passat biturbo as a DSG.
I seem to remember Audi being the same - 4wd means an auto box.
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Off the top of my head, Audi S1 ans S3 both have 4wd and are manual.
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balls to those poxy cars lol the R8 comes in a manual too :grin: no idea where you heard that snippet of info Fred?
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Hmmm so not the S3, but just looked at the A3 and A4 and when you select quattro it only offers s-tronic auto box. I was only ever looking at a A3 184 before I got my GTD, could never afford a S3 :-(
Mind you, when I looked at the new S'roccy earlier on i noticed that they only offer the 184 TDi as a DSG.
Must just be their choices of what they think you'd want.
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I think you must be putting in the wrong searches Fred as the Skyrocket comes in manual or DSG in all guises:
http://www.orangewheels.co.uk/volkswagen/volkswagen-scirocco/custom/vw-scirocco-tdi.html
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Nope, just been back, choose a R Line and then check the box for manual transmission:
http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/new/scirocco-gp/configure/engine/1886/1892
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how weird is that!
Mind you, I'd quite fancy a DSG R Line Scirocco myself so maybe I'm their target audience!!
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dont do it Exonian, its mk6 tech, had a one last week
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See the new Passat is on the configurator. The R-Line BITDI looks like an easy £40k car with a couple of must have options (can't believe a £35k car doesn't have the LED headlights as standard). As nice as it is I don't think I'd choose one over a 330d M-Sport xDrive.
I've just priced up my ideal Passat and got to £41,500. Too much money, but it will make a cracking used car in a years or so time. Passats values have always dropped like stones in the first year.
Oddly, people that are too stupid to be able to reverse a trailer can have Trailer Assist, but there is no option for a factory fitted folding tow bar.
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dont do it Exonian, its mk6 tech, had a one last week
Ha Ha Ha!
No, I was just joking, I do like the look of it but my GTI offers me the best of a lot of things and will do me for a while yet.
Besides I've just moved house and am as skint as it gets!
In fact there are loads of things in the VW range I like but I still think the GTI is the best blend of things (with a few enhancements)
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http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/volkswagen-reveals-new-268bhp-diesel-engine
interesting read, could it go into a high powered golf diesel?
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only 268? Going by usual manufacturer tunes this is definitely going to be good for 300 http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/volkswagen-diesel-engine-innovation-workshop-2014-11-11
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http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/volkswagen-reveals-new-268bhp-diesel-engine
interesting read, could it go into a high powered golf diesel?
Be ordering my next car early 2016 and at moment its S3 or R but must admit would be very tempted by a 4WD GTD -R with anywhere between 270-300 BHP as thats more than enough feel good for me with that torque being put down by the 4WD and the clincher being what you would imagine will be quite a bit of fuel saving over the present R.
Think maybe this is for the MK8 though? But if its there imagine my options narrow to 1.
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Just on the subject of Bi-TDI's, Saab used to do a 1.9 TTid 190PS which was a cracking engine. Think it's possibly the same one that Vauxhall have now fondled with!
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saab must've improved it then cos i hear the vauxhall one is crap
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and this will explain why its crap lol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JTD_engine fiat...
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Yeah all of the Vauxhall TDI's have been Fiat designs for some time now (maybe 10 years?)
At the outset the 160PS lump in the Vecta was quite good performance wise but also pretty unreliable too! From what I've heard adding another turbo hasn't improved the reliability either (funnily enough)
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and this will explain why its crap lol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JTD_engine fiat...
:sick: correct! At least Saab knew what to do with it!
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Talking of reliability of twin-charged units, the super-turbo-charged 1.4 VW have just binned wasn't exactly a paragon of reliability and I don't think I've ever read a single review from an owner that said it was "trouble free". This was an engine that won awards for design!
Hopefully that was just the supercharger side of things as VW dropped the G40/60 due to its issues way back when. But I have to say the Polo G40 I had about a thousand years ago was the best fun car I ever owned (the Lupo GTI being the best fun car I drove but didn't actually own) and dispelled all those myths that people need canal barge sized cars as soon as they have children - check out the boot size of a mk2/3 Polo and I can tell you I managed perfectly ok for a couple years with a very small child in tow.
Anyway, hopefully VW have learned their lessons and we can take the huuuuuge price difference between the single turbo and bi-turbo Passat as a sign that this new engine is very expensive and therefore very well built!!!
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i dont know why im thinking it but i am assuming biturbo'in dervs is easier than messing around with petrols especially 4 pots
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this sort of appeals to me as can ditch the olop and the R and a scratch a few itches for a second car
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I think this engine and car combo would appeal to an awful lot of people, on paper it offers it all (and with a Sport and Sound pack might even sound half decent, from the cabin at least)
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I think this engine and car combo would appeal to an awful lot of people, on paper it offers it all (the with a Sport and Sound pack might even sound half decent, from the cabin at least)
Yes, but going off the extra costings on the biturbo Passat for the 240ps unit, could they supply this unit in a Golf for similar money to the current R engine? Might be closer to the R400 on price.
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I think this engine and car combo would appeal to an awful lot of people, on paper it offers it all (the with a Sport and Sound pack might even sound half decent, from the cabin at least)
Yes, but going off the extra costings on the biturbo Passat for the 240ps unit, could they supply this unit in a Golf for similar money to the current R engine? Might be closer to the R400 on price.
If they did it with some unique styling and special features they might just about get away with a high price tag.
I never visit the R Forum these days but when I last went over there aside from the Corsa boys looking to do a cheap lease deal there were others that described the R as a 'cheap' car!! So I think there are so many downsizers from big exec cars that don't want the size but want the performance and kudos that have the readies and will to pay an awful lot of money for a Golf.
For me personally being just a normal guy with a normal job it's kind of gradually alienating me from Golf ownership (which I've been on and off for twenty odd years) if the Golf is just steadily moving upmarket.
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Exonian: I think the big "upmarket" push happened when the MK6 came in and prices were 20% up overnight compared to the outgoing MK5. Apart from price, the only thing separating Audi from VW right now is the interior IMO, and that gap shrunk a lot with the MK7, unfortunately so did the price gap. There's not much gap bewteen the other marques now either - BMW is now king of the rep-mobiles, and A/B/C class Mercs are feeling less and less premium these days with their very average interiors. £25k doesn't seem to get you a massive amount of car these days, car inflation has massively outstripped wage inflation in the last 7 years.
Is it any coincidence that new cars almost universally shot up by at least £2k during the scrappage scheme? £2k for your old banger (which was worth feck all), but you're no better off because your shiny new car went up £2k on RRP.
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Exonian:
The R is, for its performance capability a cheap car. You are talking porsche standard boxter/cayman and within touching distance of the M and AMG models from mercedes and bmw.
For a golf it might be a lot of money, at the end of the day, as capable and fantastic build it has, they will lose customers because if you push the price too high, brand snobbery takes over, personally i don't care how good it is, if you pushed it to getting towards 40-50k id be seriously thinking what the hell am i doing in a VW dealership looking at a golf which someone else can buy a basic one for 15 or so thousand
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Hi
I have a Passat bi Turbo on order since its launch in Oct, with a build wk of week 2.
A Golf with that engine would need the 4 motion due to 500 nm and thus push the price up as previously said.
some of the 5100 uplift is the 4 motion and also the spec such as the std full LED head lights which are a £1400 option on rest of range. But I agree its a big uplift....but a great new engine non the less.
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You can push out 500nm on a dtuk equipped gtd and you get full led lights. 5100 for 4 motion doesn't as up when it's not an extra 5k for an R
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Its probably all a moot point anyway, seeing as there is a current backlash against evil diesel...
I'd be surprised if there was even another GTD in Mk8 guise, let alone a GTD-R that kills a dozen children/kittens with every press of the throttle.
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Its probably all a moot point anyway, seeing as there is a current backlash against evil diesel...
I'd be surprised if there was even another GTD in Mk8 guise, let alone a GTD-R that kills a dozen children/kittens with every press of the throttle.
I think they will have the ACT type setup in te next mark GTI
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I didn't know complete full LED headlight was available on Golf...
But yes it's a big hike.