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Model specific boards => Golf mk7 => Topic started by: p3asa on 02 October 2014, 12:47
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I got pulled for speeding a couple of months ago by 2 cops with a hand held gun.
At the time it was all a haze as all I could think about was there goes my clean licence. :embarrassed:
The citation was delivered today and they claim they caught me doing 54mph although at the time they definitely said 53mph (as that is in my statement) at a distance of 418 metres.
I don't have a problem with taking my punishment if I was stupid enough to do the crime but I don't agree with the speed I was doing for a few reasons:
I had literally come off a roundabout as I've shown in the picture and don't believe by the time I hadn't straightened up I was doing 54.
I initially thought when I was told they caught me at a distance of 418 metres this is when they locked onto me but the road goes down in a dip out of view from where the police were standing so they couldn't have been tracking me as round about that distance is when the road goes out of view. it must be out of their line of sight for for a distance of 200 -300 metres
Lastly there were cars in front of me granted a good distance in front but I seem to recall one of them turning right into a new housing estate I've marked blue in the picture which is out of view of the police. in fact now I think about it, I could have been clocked speeding at 418 metres but instead of driving straight to where the police were to be pulled over, I could easily have pulled into the new housing estate all out of view from them!!
I'm only asking in here as a conversation I was having with my old father in law totally unrelated about radar and how they tried to block it during the war, made me think about the Golf and its front radar. Could that in some way interfere with the signal from a radar gun?
(http://i918.photobucket.com/albums/ad28/p3asa1/speeding_zps79b329e7.jpg)
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over 400 metres?
What was the speed limit and how much were you doing? :D
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I'd imagine the radar would have been pretty much tested with every type of speed detection device before being released onto market worldwide but I did wonder myself earlier in the year.
After 29 years of clean licence driving I got stung for a 40 in a 30 which really mystified me as I was on an unfamiliar bit of road, in light traffic, looking for somewhere to turn around so I certainly wasn't 'on it'.
The road was pretty wide and just off a motorway junction so it would have been easy to drift over the 30 limit, and after speaking to locals after the letter popped through my letterbox it was a police favourite spot. It does have street lights but they are well spaced and there are houses but only on one side and well set back. The locals said it used to be NSL along there but was dropped to a 40 and then a 30 because there was a bus stop on one side of the road.
It took the penalty on the chin but did indeed have my doubts about whether I was speeding, or at least that much above the limit. My father is a retired Police Officer and had all the driver training so I do know the tricks of making rapid progress without breaking the laws of the land but on this occasion I was driving (I thought) pretty slowly looking for a side road in which to do a 180 degree turn and head back to the motorway.
So it does beg a question as to whether the radar can interfere with things.
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This is really strange, I got pulled for doing EXACTLY the same thing (but clocked at 42mph) a couple of months ago coming out of Paisley.
I questioned the whole scenario as I don't believe at that disctance they had a clear line of sight to my car but I hummed and hawed about arguing my case in court and after a letter from the fiscal I paid it today (read: shat it).
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Yes, I was very much considering questioning it but just ended up attending a speed awareness course owing to the general opinion that if I questioned it I'd end up with lots of extra costs and the same outcome.
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My advice... unless you are very certain of your situation then just pay the fine and accept the points or pay the the speed awareness course. some of the things you talk about could have affected their readings... could being the operative word...
The cost of going to court (especially if you lose, as the sanctions are likely to be significantly more severe) makes contesting speeding tickets not worthwhile unless (a) you have absolute proof of your innocence (b) absolute proof of a procedural failure etc.
I know you're innocent until proven guilty but the odds are against you...
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Justice for all.....as long as you're rich enough to challenge any ticket.
If you've got written details stating 53mph and then further correspondance stating 54, that's a pretty tight defence on technicalities.
If you have the perseverence and funds to fight this, the easiest way to prove you were out of their eye/gun line for a large chunk of the distance they claim to have caught you over would be to mount a go-pro hero or similar camera right up the top of your windcreen, in front of your rear-view mirror (so they can't claim you're obscuring your vision. Have something in the position of the police who clocked you, 7' tall and highly visible, with a familiar standard size.
Something like a set of traffic cones stacked on each other. Do your drive (at the speed limit or below) along the alleged route and the camera should see the police substitute dip into and out of view. If they're not visible for most of the alleged distance then you've got video proof. Assuming your camera is mounted 9" below the roofline of your car, your 7" tall target would be seen as if someone with a 6'3" eyeline (likely 6'8" tall) could see the top of your car. At the end of your drive you should be parking up in full view of the substitute bobby and have the continuous footage capture you clearly measuring it's height with a tape measure to confirm 7' height.
That is probably the cheapest way of reasonably reconstructing the event. You would also need to request the using officer's height to confirm they weren't freakishly tall.
There are also training certs for the operator, calibration certs for the equipment to think about.
If it's your first 3 points you'll probably just cave and cop to it, but mounting a small challenge at minimal cost would be worth it for someone on the verge of losing their license.
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I would doubt that the ACC radar would interfere with a police speed enforcement device.
The radar unit on the Golf Mk7 is a Bosch MRR unit:
http://www.bosch-presse.de/presseforum/details.htm?txtID=5289
(some interesting data on the device on that page btw!)
It runs on 77Ghz, which is in W band and W band is not used for radar based speed detection devices (as far as I know at least anyway, they use K or Ka or if you are stuck in the 1960's, x band)
In fact, 77Ghz is actually reserved for ACC applications:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W_band
Radio frequencies are quite highly regimented and organised, if they weren't all sorts of interference problems would occur all of them time. Its unlikely that any manufacturer such as Bosch would be naughty (as opposed to random electronics geeks messing around!)
Most probably, if you've been got, its either because you were actually speeding or the equipment wasn't being used correctly by the Police. If you feel its the latter, feel free to try and take it to court but unless your licence is actually on the line because of accumlated points, I'd not recommend it as they will chew you up if they find you guilty with way more points and a fine that a fixed penalty! Unfair I know, but thats the way it works.
There are specialist solicitors who can try to wiggle the case for you... but again, unless its do or die...
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Thanks guys for the replies.
The road itself is a 30 but the same road before the roundabout is a 40. So I reckon I was doing over 30 but not over 40 hence why I was queering the front radar.
The chances are I'll just take the rap for it. I've just had 2 speeding offences wiped off my licence earlier this year so was wanting to stay clean for a while that is why I was p!ssed off with it.
I still don't believe I could have got to 54 in the space of time from straightening up coming off the roundabout to where they allegedly caught me. Measuring it on Google maps it reads just under 60 metres from the roundabout which is a large one and I wasn't hammering it at all.
@monkeyhanger thanks for that advice. Using google street map where their cameras must be about 5 feet above the car you can clearly see the area where the policemen would be standing disappear. So there is no way on this earth they tracked me for that distance however I don't know if that would be evidence enough to contest it.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.7531659,-4.2789404,3a,75y,356.15h,63.84t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sAlIXwO7LFk1pVPllkksCyQ!2e0 Is the road and roughly the spot they allegedly got me at.
@Ross Detours you will pass this roundabout every day as its between Eaglesham and Waterfoot on the by-pass. What did you end up paying in terms of a fine? I reckon mine will be quite hefty considering the amount over the 30.
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If you're copping for the points without going to court, it will be a standard £60, it's not a sliding scale unless a judge gets involved. Got caught doing 47 in a 30 (that used to be a 50, then a 40 - and a non-residential area), and it was 30 points SP30 and £60.
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I have a Roadhawk dashcam in front of my rearview mirror, just as a record of my journeys and a witness. It records speed and location displayable on Googlemaps, useful on cases like the OP. I installed this after winning my case against a denying third party by getting CCTV from the local council.
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I'm only asking in here as a conversation I was having with my old father in law totally unrelated about radar and how they tried to block it during the war, made me think about the Golf and its front radar. Could that in some way interfere with the signal from a radar gun?
First post, lurking for a while..... UK Police use laser speed detectors mostly now so basically if they can see you they can clock your speed even if you are in heavy traffic as all they do is make sure a dot on the view screen is on your vehicle. The distance they say they got you would be impossible with radar in heavy traffic.
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Having used a hand held myself which is held in a hand and thus not a steady platform...at 400m I doubt they can accurately record speed. The gun can also record speeds of car going away from it too. Were there cars coming towards you at the time?
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Having used a hand held myself which is held in a hand and thus not a steady platform...at 400m I doubt they can accurately record speed. The gun can also record speeds of car going away from it too. Were there cars coming towards you at the time?
Yes there were quite a few cars coming towards me as they all flashed me to warn that the police were there but I didn't think there would be a problem as I was well out of their sight and made sure I was doing under 30 when I came up the hill and in to their view. They showed me the + sign though which they say means the cars speed was recorded coming towards them.
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The laser units that are almost exclusively now (as the post above says) have an effective range of around 1Km in clear weather. It can clock your speed in something like 0.3/second and they take 2 readings to confirm, so 0.6 of a second to get a confirmed speed check. A photograph close up will be taken at a point chosen by the operator to prove who was driving should there be an argument.
Dipping in and out of sight doesn't really make a difference with the kit they have. The front radar wouldn't make a difference with the old hand held devices. It certainly has no impact on laser.
Bad luck though.
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If you're copping for the points without going to court, it will be a standard £60, it's not a sliding scale unless a judge gets involved. Got caught doing 47 in a 30 (that used to be a 50, then a 40 - and a non-residential area), and it was 30 points SP30 and £60.
I don't know if the laws are different in England but the police told me they couldn't offer me a Fixed Penalty Notice of £60 & 3 points as it was a certain % over the limit. So it was up to the procurator fiscal to deal with.
The citation came in today (hand delivered) and I've to go to court in a couple of weeks!!
Seems a bit excessive if its just the standard £60 & 3 points!
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Dipping in and out of sight doesn't really make a difference with the kit they have. The front radar wouldn't make a difference with the old hand held devices. It certainly has no impact on laser.
Bad luck though.
Cheers that sounds fair enough.
Dipping out of sight though and then reappearing, for all they know could have been a totally different car since there is no way they could identify the car or reg number from 400 metres. They can't be 100% sure especially since there was a new housing estate that they couldn't see. For all they know it could have been the car in front of me that got clocked doing that speed, turned out of their view and then I came tootling along.
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If you're copping for the points without going to court, it will be a standard £60, it's not a sliding scale unless a judge gets involved. Got caught doing 47 in a 30 (that used to be a 50, then a 40 - and a non-residential area), and it was 30 points SP30 and £60.
I don't know if the laws are different in England but the police told me they couldn't offer me a Fixed Penalty Notice of £60 & 3 points as it was a certain % over the limit. So it was up to the procurator fiscal to deal with.
The citation came in today (hand delivered) and I've to go to court in a couple of weeks!!
Seems a bit excessive if its just the standard £60 & 3 points!
Seems like the law is different in England. They try to avoid taking you to court if you're willing to cop to the points with a statutory £60 fine and 3 points. I'm sure there must be some threshold somewhere in English law, maybe going twice the speed limit carries a different penalty code, and if you're caught doing 100 on the motorway you will certainly get a short ban and points (unless you're a Football manager with the sh!ts). I was doing a smidge more than speed limit +50% and I just got the usual 3 points and £60 fine. Something else you should have asked for with devolution! :whistle:
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As well as offering proof of fault in an accident a decent traffic camera can offer you proof of speed and location if you are caught speeding. If nothing else they can confirm that you were over the limit and save the was I wasn't I conundrum.
I have a Blackview DR400G fitted which offers full GPS based speed and position recording which links into Google maps on a PC and can be used for daily journey recording, accident proof of fault and offers good video for recording Track Days, including speeds attained around the track.
While the video recorded might not be officially allowed as evidence in court it could be offered as proof that the the police speed recording was at the very least suspect.
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If you're copping for the points without going to court, it will be a standard £60, it's not a sliding scale unless a judge gets involved. Got caught doing 47 in a 30 (that used to be a 50, then a 40 - and a non-residential area), and it was 30 points SP30 and £60.
I don't know if the laws are different in England but the police told me they couldn't offer me a Fixed Penalty Notice of £60 & 3 points as it was a certain % over the limit. So it was up to the procurator fiscal to deal with.
The citation came in today (hand delivered) and I've to go to court in a couple of weeks!!
Seems a bit excessive if its just the standard £60 & 3 points!
I can speak as someone who was caught driving 'enthusiastically' on a clear, straight country road in good weather.
My speed was 3 mph above the limit it which they *could* offer a fixed penalty notice (3 points and a fine). So I got a summons. You do not have to appear in person if you are pleading guilty. Something to note is that they *can* opt to take you to court for any speeding offence (even 1 mph above the limit) but they won't as it would clog up the courts.
If they intend to take your licence away, they will recall the case and let you know that you must attend.
Interestingly, a relation was done about 4 months later doing the same speed in a 60 zone and although a very different part of Scotland, they got the same points and fine. I guess that there is a table that they use to work it out.
My fine was £250 and I got 4 points. My relation got exactly the same. I was caught in Midlothian he was caught in the Highlands.
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I guess that there is a table that they use to work it out.
I imagine that there is...
I know there's one in England and Wales... the magistrates use it for guidance, although they are not bound by it...
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I do not know even how to switch it on, I took delivery today of my GTI and I am sure the emergency braking is off.
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I do not know even how to switch it on, I took delivery today of my GTI and I am sure the emergency braking is off.
It is on by default to get the lower insurance group and it can be turned off temporarily by pressing the end of the Indicator stalk and then pressing "ok" (also turns off/on lane assist by scrolling up/down if fitted).
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If you signed a statement saying you were doing 53 yet the documents you have state 54 then IMO you can challenge this and get off. The police haven't filled out the information correctly and it also implies the radar isn't callibrated correctly - therefore I'd tell them to jog on. This happened to my brother and to one of my best mates - if everything doesn't match up then tough sh!t for the police I'm afraid you can challenge it.
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I never signed anything or was given anything at the time.
I came away from it thinking they had told me it was 53.
Yet in the paperwork they have sent me to take me to court it states it was 54 I was allegedly doing but the statement I gave at the time (which they have given me a copy of) I said I don't believe I was doing 53!!
They are at it whatever way I look at it.
Looks like I'll just have to bend over and take it like a man!
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I never signed anything or was given anything at the time.
I came away from it thinking they had told me it was 53.
Yet in the paperwork they have sent me to take me to court it states it was 54 I was allegedly doing but the statement I gave at the time (which they have given me a copy of) I said I don't believe I was doing 53!!
They are at it whatever way I look at it.
Looks like I'll just have to bend over and take it like a man!
Its a bugger when you doubt you were doing that speed, i'm under no doubt I was doing the speed they said I was when I got caught, I just thought the speed limit was higher than it was (it used to be higher).
If you don't have documentary conflicting figures then you don't have the get-out. Challenge in court and risk a greater punishment or cop to it, that's UK justice for you.
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Agree with MonkeyHanger's comments; however, I know its galling but if you have no proof that you were at or below the speed limit and they, apparently, do then there's little recourse to you but to plead guilty and accept your punishment...
According to the sentencing guidelines for England and Wales (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsentencingcouncil.judiciary.gov.uk%2Fdocs%2FMCSG_%28web%29_-_Complete_8.pdf&ei=BQ41VN6qJYvksATCl4CIAg&usg=AFQjCNFLZJL4V_pT5VOa6Ei67lCbSnKY4w&sig2=5r9liy7bl6OleE4aoHETMA (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsentencingcouncil.judiciary.gov.uk%2Fdocs%2FMCSG_%28web%29_-_Complete_8.pdf&ei=BQ41VN6qJYvksATCl4CIAg&usg=AFQjCNFLZJL4V_pT5VOa6Ei67lCbSnKY4w&sig2=5r9liy7bl6OleE4aoHETMA)
For 54mph in a 30 zone you are looking at a 7-56 day ban OR 6 points and a fine of between 75% and 125% of your relevant weekly income it could be less if you are a high earner... if you plead guilty and you do not show any factors including higher culpability...
There are very limited mitigating circumstances allowed.
It is a tough one, if I were you, I'd plead guilty, apologise, say it was out of character etc. if you try to challenge it and they think that you're being frivolous you might well end up at the higher end of the punishment scale...
It might be worth going to have a discussion with a solicitor - some will provide a free consultation...
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Thankfully Scotland doesn't have Court Sentencing Guidelines although you are then at the mercy of a judge who may very well have had road rage on the way in to work and you're about to cop his anger!!
Apparently I am looking at between 3 - 6 points, a possible ban of up to 56 days and up to £1000 fine.
Interestingly I have contacted a few solicitors and they say because of the line of sight thing, I would have a good chance of winning my case but obviously at a cost.
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Are you able to recoup costs if you win (in a Scottish court)?
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54 in a 30 will be 6 points and a fine, no ban as its at the lower end of the spectrum for this speed and they will want something out of you £££ wise.... Its sh*tty I know from a 1 off experience I had for 53 in a 30 but unless money is no object and you plan to challenge, take the hit and plead guilty as this will deduct 25% of the fine of a weekly salary. Your only concern will be if your insurance company has a 1 or 2 strikes policy and don't up your premiums, fortunately my insurance company has a 2 strikes policy so I wasn't hit too bad in the pocket.
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No you can't recoup the costs of a driving case in Scotland.
Both solicitors I've spoken with reckon it would be 4 or 5 points and a reasonable fine as the magistrates are apparently "decent" in the court I've to attend but obviously depends on the day!
£1800 for to contest it.
£1200 to negotiate a better outcome
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54 in a 30 will be 6 points and a fine, no ban as its at the lower end of the spectrum for this speed and they will want something out of you £££ wise.... Its sh*tty I know from a 1 off experience I had for 53 in a 30 but unless money is no object and you plan to challenge, take the hit and plead guilty as this will deduct 25% of the fine of a weekly salary. Your only concern will be if your insurance company has a 1 or 2 strikes policy and don't up your premiums, fortunately my insurance company has a 2 strikes policy so I wasn't hit too bad in the pocket.
You might be right and in 90% of cases you will be - Scotland is different though - but even in England and Wales the option is there for them to issue a ban of 7-56 days in the guidelines...
Your assertion that "its at the lower end of the spectrum" is not likely to be one shared by the court, in reality, 54 in a 30 is exceeding the speed limit by 80%. In the guidelines that level of offence is the highest of the three levels, the bands for the 30 limit are 31-40, 41-50 and 51-60...
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Sorry I'm so late in coming back to this but to answer your original question P3asa, my fine was £100. And yes, I go through that roundabout every single day!
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I contacted 3 solicitors in the end with a view of going with one to represent me. Interestingly all 3 said the magistrates at the court I was to attend were "jolly good chaps" and "reasonable"
Fees ranged from £1k to £2.5k all plus VAT.
I couldn't really afford those fees but kept thinking it may be worst case scenario of up to £1k fine, 6 points or disqualification and I should really defend those.
So after a few weeks of will I, won't I, I decided to take the risk and just plead guilty by letter with a statement in my mitigating factors basically saying I had been an arse and had no excuse. Working in the health sector I experience more than most the effects that speed can have and should know better.
The magistrate must have taken pity on me 3 points and £180 fine.
I do still believe though I wasn't doing that speed. Anyone know if a dashcam could be used in evidence obviously if you felt you were under the speed limit?
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I couldn't really afford those fees but kept thinking it may be worst case scenario of up to £1k fine, 6 points or disqualification and I should really defend those.
So after a few weeks of will I, won't I, I decided to take the risk and just plead guilty by letter with a statement in my mitigating factors basically saying I had been an arse and had no excuse. Working in the health sector I experience more than most the effects that speed can have and should know better.
The magistrate must have taken pity on me 3 points and £180 fine.
That was exactly the correct course of action... I reckon you've got away with the minimum there...
As for your Dashcam used in evidence. I'm not aware of one; however, given that people have used calibration issues with police equipment to get off... I think the accuracy of the Dashcam and calibration might be brought up should someone attempt to use footage in their defence...
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^ unless you can recall GPS readings to identify irrefutable speed readings, calibration doubts can come into the argument on both sides. Some high end Satnavs can provide the GPS data.