GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk4 => Topic started by: ndxturbo on 01 October 2014, 21:03
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Hi there, this is my first post so if this is in the wrong section then apologies. Also please excuse my poor terminology lol
Anyway, last month I purchased a GTi '99, however, since owning it, on a couple of occasions the engine has taken longer to start than I would expect it to. For example, I could leave the car for 5 hours, come back, turn the key to start the engine and it will struggle for a couple of seconds before roaring to life. Sometimes I've turned the key to fire the engine, let the key spring back to the position it is when the engine is started and its struggled for a few seconds before not starting all together. Although, when this happens, if I go to start it again straight away it will just fire up with no problem at all. Last week I left the car for about 3 days and when I went to start it I had to hold the key (in the position when you start the engine) for about 3-4 seconds before the engine fired up, and again, when I went to start the engine again after that it fired up no problem. Took it to a garage last week and he said it was the starter motor, so got that replaced. He also recommended that the spark plugs should be changed.
But when I went to drive home from work the other day I noticed it hesitated to start again (only for a split second longer than I feel it should, fuel light was on this time if that would make a difference). I've taken it to another garage this week, he checked the battery and said it was fine. I've left it with them for a few days to see if this problem happens when they go to start it. I will also get them to change the spark plugs before I get it back off them.
Just wondering if anyone has any idea what might be causing this rather annoying problem?? Like I said, if it hesitates for a few seconds or doesn't start as "cleanly" as it should first time, when I got to start it immediately after it will fire up like it should.
Any help is much appreciated!!
Cheers
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have it scanned for fault codes before spending money on it :smiley:
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sounds like a problem i had a while ago,then my engine started to spluttter on idle in traffic ,then it wouldnt start at all soon after .was fuel pump gradually giving up .when your fuel lite is on the pump has to work that bit harder as well .will not throw up a fault code if its the pump , pumps are easy to change though .hope this helps a little maybe :smiley:
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I forgot to mention that once the engine is running it runs completely fine, no strange noises or splutters etc the problem only occurs on start up. Most of the research I have done seems to points towards something fuel related if the battery, starter etc is fine. Inevitably I think I will have to get it scanned though but thats not cheap either lol
Thanks for quick reply guys, anyone else with suggests would be great!!
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see if there is a member near you that will scan it :smiley: my guess would be temp sensor
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engine didnt start spluttering until a good week after the poor start up problems started . do you get a constant whinig noise from your pump ?
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When you say that it doesn't start properly for a few seconds then it worked, are you sure that it isn't just because the fuel pump hadn't primed? Because I have turn the ignition on before I fully turn the car on otherwise it struggles to start. If not I would try cleaning the throttle body if I was you.
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When you say that it doesn't start properly for a few seconds then it worked, are you sure that it isn't just because the fuel pump hadn't primed? Because I have turn the ignition on before I fully turn the car on otherwise it struggles to start. If not I would try cleaning the throttle body if I was you.
When I turn the ignition I hear a noise coming from the driver side which I'm guessing is the fuel pump priming? waiting for this noise to happen or putting the key in and trying to start it immediately seems to make no difference as whether it will start sluggish or not.
engine didnt start spluttering until a good week after the poor start up problems started . do you get a constant whinig noise from your pump ?
the engine only "spluttters" once I turn the key to start the engine, then it runs perfectly to my knowledge. As I said before, when I let the car sit for 3 days last week I had to hold the key in the "start" position for about 3-4 seconds before the car started. I drove it to the gym, came back to the car in an hours time and it started perfectly.
see if there is a member near you that will scan it :smiley: my guess would be temp sensor
Funny you mention that actually, near where the starter motor is, there is a bunch of wires and one of them had completely broken. When I took it to the first garage he said it might be affecting the temperature readings. He supposedly fixed this wire along with replacing the starter motor.
I'm going to go back and pick the car up tomorrow from the garage i've left it for the last two days and see if the problem has repeated on him. If it hasn't, then I'm going to have to try get it on video to show them what it's actually doing.....
Thank you for all your suggestions so far!
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The symptoms you're describing are identical to those of what's just happened to me.
I had my car in a garage for the past 3 days and he couldn't find a fault. The suggestion was to replace all 4 injectors and replace the wiring loom for an upgrade as the current one runs through the rocker cover. I looked into this and although it's a common problem I spoke with a specialist at the vw garage who states that if it was a problem with the injectors I would certainly know about it. They either work or don't, there is no in-between. To replace would cost £2200 .....yeah right,,,let me check the back of my sofa..not.
Specialist kindly looked into it for me for free and said my TDI along with all diesels often collect water from the tank. His suggestion I could fix myself turned up trumps.
1) replace the fuel filter. I got mine from Halfords for £18, took me 5 mins to replace.
2) replace the brake pedal switch to the new green upgraded version. Simple to replace, undo 3 screws housing cover to brake pedal, remove plastic surround. Turn the current switch counter clockwise and unplug. Plug in new one, no need to hold or press the pedal. The old ones are faulty on and off which when the engine is warm seems to drop the current flowing to the starter motor, it also turns off your brake lights when they die.
I did the above and my car runs so smooth now it's like I just got it from the forecourt brand new.
Costs £18 new fuel filter
£13 for new brake switch
Ideally with possible water still left in my tank I need to now syphone the fuel out, clean and replace. This can be done without the need for a new part.
You can't go wrong with trying the above. For the cost of what £31 total and maybe twenty minutes of your own labour to try this you may be surprised at the outcome. Just don't let the car fuel run too low until you can clean the tank (which lies behind the drivers seat in the rear passenger) if you have been hearing that low pitch noise coming from there when trying to start this is the pump trying its hardest to suck up the fuel. New fuel filter will resolve that straight away. Good luck as it worked perfectly for me
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The symptoms you're describing are identical to those of what's just happened to me.
I had my car in a garage for the past 3 days and he couldn't find a fault. The suggestion was to replace all 4 injectors and replace the wiring loom for an upgrade as the current one runs through the rocker cover. I looked into this and although it's a common problem I spoke with a specialist at the vw garage who states that if it was a problem with the injectors I would certainly know about it. They either work or don't, there is no in-between. To replace would cost £2200 .....yeah right,,,let me check the back of my sofa..not.
Specialist kindly looked into it for me for free and said my TDI along with all diesels often collect water from the tank. His suggestion I could fix myself turned up trumps.
1) replace the fuel filter. I got mine from Halfords for £18, took me 5 mins to replace.
2) replace the brake pedal switch to the new green upgraded version. Simple to replace, undo 3 screws housing cover to brake pedal, remove plastic surround. Turn the current switch counter clockwise and unplug. Plug in new one, no need to hold or press the pedal. The old ones are faulty on and off which when the engine is warm seems to drop the current flowing to the starter motor, it also turns off your brake lights when they die.
I did the above and my car runs so smooth now it's like I just got it from the forecourt brand new.
Costs £18 new fuel filter
£13 for new brake switch
Ideally with possible water still left in my tank I need to now syphone the fuel out, clean and replace. This can be done without the need for a new part.
You can't go wrong with trying the above. For the cost of what £31 total and maybe twenty minutes of your own labour to try this you may be surprised at the outcome. Just don't let the car fuel run too low until you can clean the tank (which lies behind the drivers seat in the rear passenger) if you have been hearing that low pitch noise coming from there when trying to start this is the pump trying its hardest to suck up the fuel. New fuel filter will resolve that straight away. Good luck as it worked perfectly for me
Thanks for the suggestion. Changing the fuel filter was definitely on the agenda because if it is a fuel problem then changing that can't do any harm, and fingers crossed it might even solve it.
However, on Saturday I took it to a garage and he plugged it into the machine (for free :O) and it gave him two fault codes. One of them he said was to do with the battery but he didn't seem too concerned by this, and the other was an ECU fault, which when he looked it up it was to do with the immobiliser. So, the next step he said was to get it booked in and they'll get an auto electrician to come and investigate it further. I'm pretty sure this problem is directly related to how long the car has been sat for though, and I don't know if an immobilser would cause this?
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where do you live?
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where do you live?
Portsmouth, quite a distance from you by the looks of it :undecided:
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Sounds strange to me.
Most start-ups follow a route....here are just a few things to trouble a car starting
1) Battery
2) Ignition switch
3) Park/Neutral Safety Switch
4) Brake Pedal Safety Switch or Clutch Pedal switch
5) Starter Solenoid or relay
6) Starter Motor
Any one of these will affect how the car starts. List is not the same for all models of vehicles. Like i mentioned I had a break pedal switch with an intermittent fault causing the car to not start when it was warm. I replaced the fuel filter to overcome any other issues of fuel delivery to make sure. BTW a faulty brake switch can register all sorts of errors on VAGCOM and your dash. Saying that if your immobiliser is not correctly kicking in then this could be the cause. I wish you luck !!
I seem to have lost a few horses on my car. I think they have turned into ponies. My turbo does not seem so rapid at the moment. It was kicking in under 2k rpm but I can still feel it, just not giving me push into my seat I was used to.
I have cleaned my MAF sensor twice to see if this helps but I'm now wondering whether to spend £130 for a new MAF sensor. I need to check my turbo pipes for leaks but this is very time consuming and difficult. Nothing is obvious at present.
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Just a little update if anyone is interested, and for anyone else who might come across a similar problem. Got the fuel filter changed today just for good measure, however, for the last two days I have been turning the ignition on, waiting for fuel pump to prime, waiting for all dashboard lights to go off and waiting for fuel gauge to rise and stop, and have been doing this 3 times before I start the engine. So far, fingers crossed, the extended crank has not repeated and have left the car for one 12 hour period and one 15 hour period. I will keep doing this until next week and see if the extended crank happens at all, if it doesn't then I have something to work with. The guy at the garage said just let all the dashboard lights go out before starting the engine and don't cycle the key, but I'm going to go against his advice and keep doing what I'm doing just to see if it solves the problem. He did also mention that it could just be an age related problem with the fuel pump. I'm taking it to a different garage tomorrow just to get a second opinion on the matter.
If anyone has any further suggestion don't hesitate to post it!
Cheers
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my money is still on your fuel pump :smiley:
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my money is still on your fuel pump :smiley:
I'm guessing it's something to do with that as well. The only thing is, surely if it was packing up I would have noticed many more symptoms than what it's throwing at me. If the whole fuel pump was at fault then surely it would be effecting how the car is running once the engine has started, considering its continuously pumping fuel from the tank? But so far I have had no other symptoms. I have been reading up on a thing called check valve/non return valve ( i think) that is located in the pump? I'm not sure if an electric pump has this or not but from my understanding this stops the fuel pressure from dropping once the engine has stopped to help it restart? Maybe someone can elaborate on this? would be much appreciated :)
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your pump is working its hardest when you start the car even more so if your tank is near empty ,mine was tempremental -1 morn it would start 1st time then later on in the day it wouldnt and vice versa.
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my money is still on your fuel pump :smiley:
mine is on the temp sensor :whistle:
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my money is still on your fuel pump :smiley:
mine is on the temp sensor :whistle:
This is the exact problem I face, can't afford to be chucking parts at it, need to narrow it down :P
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if barrys right im sure a temp sensor will be alot cheaper than a pump -as said in previous posts ,can u not plug someone elses in or even get 1 from a car in a breakers ?
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also im sure your fuel pressure drops alot once u turn your engine off
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also im sure your fuel pressure drops alot once u turn your engine off
Correct me if I'm wrong, but from the research I've done, apparently when you turn the engine off, fuel pressure will slowly decrease rather than drop all together, so that restarting the engine is made easier? I don't know if you're allowed to post links here so apologies if this doesn't work http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/195 but if you read this and see the pictures hopefully you'll see what I'm getting at. On the image on that page it's called an anti-drain back valve and i've seen it called a check valve on other web pages also, apparently if this is faulty then it can cause extended crank issues due to the fact that fuel or fuel pressure is leaking back towards the pump. This might be completely wrong but that's what I have understood from it, maybe someone can enlighten me on the matter? :grin:
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Also when I take it to garage tomorrow I will mention the temp sensor to them and see what they say :)
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Took it to the garage today and they had it for a couple of hours and found nothing :angry: leaving it there overnight though to see what it does in the morning for them. Started it this morning in the way I have been the last few days (cycling the key 3 times), and it didn't have the extended crank, but it didn't sound like a solid start to me, almost like I didn't keep the key turned long enough (which I may have done so that might be my fault). Will keep you updated :)
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As predicted, the garage found nothing wrong with it (in terms of fault codes). Complete waste of time taking it there. To me it seems if they find no fault codes then they suspect nothing is wrong when there clearly is :/ Looks like I'm going to have wait it out and see if it gets worse, or try find a decent mechanic who doesn't rely on a computer.... :angry:
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What's the engine code (wiring diagrams are specific to code)?
You can check the temp sender using a multimeter.... http://www.motor-talk.de/forum/aktion/Attachment.html?attachmentId=719242
It's obviously in a different place on the mk4 but the procedure is the same and the values you should be getting from sender on mk4 are quite similar.
If this is OK and cycling ignition before you start helps the car to start I would be looking at fuel pressure regulator (sounds like it allows petrol to leak back into the tank - normally the fuel pressure should not drop a great deal over night).
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What's the engine code (wiring diagrams are specific to code)?
You can check the temp sender using a multimeter.... http://www.motor-talk.de/forum/aktion/Attachment.html?attachmentId=719242
It's obviously in a different place on the mk4 but the procedure is the same and the values you should be getting from sender on mk4 are quite similar.
If this is OK and cycling ignition before you start helps the car to start I would be looking at fuel pressure regulator (sounds like it allows petrol to leak back into the tank - normally the fuel pressure should not drop a great deal over night).
I have no idea what the engine code is :sad: all I know is that it's a 99 GTi mk4 lol
thanks for that I will look into it, would you reckon it's worth changing the temp sensor anyway just eliminate the possibility? and the fact that they're pretty cheap to replace.
Since the last extended crank I have been cycling the ignition 2-3 times + had the fuel filter changed, so far I have not had an extended crank, even been recording how long the car has been sat for each time I start it, longest it's been sat for is 16 hours in the last 6 days and it started fine. I'm going to keep doing this for a few more days and then stop cycling the ignition and see what the results are.
Cheers
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engine code is on service sticker on the cambelt cover, in service manual or the service tag in the boot
(there is no mk4 "gti" as all it was is a trim level, you could have it with a number of different engines).
Why replace the temp sensor, test it first.... only takes 5 minutes
sounds to me more and more like FPR allows petrol to leak back to tank
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engine code is on service sticker on the cambelt cover, in service manual or the service tag in the boot
(there is no mk4 "gti" as all it was is a trim level, you could have it with a number of different engines).
Why replace the temp sensor, test it first.... only takes 5 minutes
sounds to me more and more like FPR allows petrol to leak back to tank
oh okay, in that case I'll have to have a look later...I have no multimeter to test it, is that the only way to test it?
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you can also read live temp from ECU if you have access to VCDS (compare the temperature from dash with temperature value in ECU - up to 70 degrees they should agree fairly closely.
multimeter is only 5£ in any diy store thou ;)
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you can also read live temp from ECU if you have access to VCDS (compare the temperature from dash with temperature value in ECU - up to 70 degrees they should agree fairly closely.
multimeter is only 5£ in any diy store thou ;)
If I don't have a multimeter then I definitely don't have access to VCSDS ;) (whatever that is haha)
I'll go to the garage round the corner from me tomorrow and ask him if he can test the sensor and about the slow rising temp gauge and no hot air, which I'm guessing is related to the thermostat as you said in my other thread.
When I stop cycling the ignition in the next few days I will know if that has stopped the extended crank issue or not. At least then when I take it to the garage they will have something to work with, one garage has already mentioned that it could be the FPR as well.
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why not stop cycling ignition now and then just replace the FPR if long crank issue comes back?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.X037133035C&_nkw=037133035C&_sacat=0
also just get a multimeter.... cheaper than garage for 10 minutes labour ;)
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why not stop cycling ignition now and then just replace the FPR if long crank issue comes back?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.X037133035C&_nkw=037133035C&_sacat=0
also just get a multimeter.... cheaper than garage for 10 minutes labour ;)
I'm going to do it 1 more time tomorrow, then it's been a week without extended crank, only problem is what if it's not the FPR, then I would have wasted even more money on this problem...could it not be the check valve on the fuel pump? Got the info from here http://www.ericthecarguy.com/faq/solving-automotive-performance-issues?start=5
I mentioned that to the guy at the garage I took it to this week after he claimed there was nothing wrong with it, his response was, "yeah it could be that it's leaking back through", I can't understand why he wouldn't have checked this (I'm guessing there is a way to check it properly) if he thought it was a possibility :angry:
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You'll need to start somewhere.... you can check fuel pressure with manometer.
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You'll need to start somewhere.... you can check fuel pressure with manometer.
Indeed, going to get the thermostat changed this week (if that's the cause of the slow moving temp gauge and no hot air from vents) and maybe that could have been a contributing factor to the hard starts I was getting, will stop cycling the ignition when I get the car back then will be able to tell if thermostat or fuel filter was causing it, if not then I'm slowly but surely narrowing down the cause of it lol :smiley:
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thermostat has absolutely nothing to do with car not starting ;)
if power cycling ignition then you have a problem with fuel pressure leaking; the fuel filter has little to nothing to do with that. FPR or fuel pump (unless you have also running issues, then maybe injector leaking but let's not get ahead of ourselves)...
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thermostat has absolutely nothing to do with car not starting ;)
if power cycling ignition then you have a problem with fuel pressure leaking; the fuel filter has little to nothing to do with that. FPR or fuel pump (unless you have also running issues, then maybe injector leaking but let's not get ahead of ourselves)...
It can't be doing much good for engine performance though if the engine is running cooler than it should? would it not effect start up at all? left the car with the garage yesterday and he said he took it for a drive and he reckons it heated up quickly but did mention there was no hot air so was going to check to see if it the thermostat later on. Also, when driving for say 20+ minutes the temp gauge should be sitting on 90?
Yeah I will update on here as to whether or not the extended crank comes back, if it does then do you think cycling the ignition will do any damage if I leave it like that for a while....broke student over here :whistle:
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buy a haynes and start diy'ing ;)
power cycling should not cause further faults but long term you may see issues...
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buy a haynes and start diy'ing ;)
power cycling should not cause further faults but long term you may see issues...
Ok so I got the thermostat replaced and that has solved slow temp gauge rising and no heat from the blowers, but today I didn't cycle the ignition and have had two 'sluggish' engine starts....looks like the next step is FPR or Fuel pump :angry: