GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk3 => Topic started by: snozan on 13 July 2014, 15:47
-
Sure i knew i could get some more hp easy but i never knew exactly why. Here is the answer and why i love the ABF
"What is an ABF 16V?
Back in 1992 when the 8v GTI was released in Europe the 112BHP didn't cut it, so VW's engine division was asked to design a 16v motor for the Mk3. After rolling out an 'old' 16v based engine at 130-140 BHP they were asked politely to go away and come back with a better design, as the competition of the time were all up around 150+ BHP (Vauxhall Astra GTE 16v & Ford Escort RS2000)
After a further couple of years the ABF was born, but was producing nearly 170 BHP. This did not please VW as the VR6 was only kicking out 174 BHP, so the ABF was choked by the ECU to produce 150BHP, but maximize the torque. Also the tax brackets / insurance brackets in Europe / UK were working against a 170BHP 16v'er...so it went on sale in about 1995 with 150 BHP / 135 lb-ft.
Thinking about this story, it makes sense, as a simple re-chip yields 170BHP and 160+ lb-ft....so it seems that the ABF was always designed to produce 170 BHP anyway...hence the large gains.
This engine was always developed to be the basis of VW & SEATs rally cars of the era, so it was designed to be tuned to 280BHP."
The ultimate VW engine :smiley:
-
Sure i knew i could get some more hp easy but i never knew exactly why. Here is the answer and why i love the ABF
"What is an ABF 16V?
Back in 1992 when the 8v GTI was released in Europe the 112BHP didn't cut it, so VW's engine division was asked to design a 16v motor for the Mk3. After rolling out an 'old' 16v based engine at 130-140 BHP they were asked politely to go away and come back with a better design, as the competition of the time were all up around 150+ BHP (Vauxhall Astra GTE 16v & Ford Escort RS2000)
After a further couple of years the ABF was born, but was producing nearly 170 BHP. This did not please VW as the VR6 was only kicking out 174 BHP, so the ABF was choked by the ECU to produce 150BHP, but maximize the torque. Also the tax brackets / insurance brackets in Europe / UK were working against a 170BHP 16v'er...so it went on sale in about 1995 with 150 BHP / 135 lb-ft.
Thinking about this story, it makes sense, as a simple re-chip yields 170BHP and 160+ lb-ft....so it seems that the ABF was always designed to produce 170 BHP anyway...hence the large gains.
This engine was always developed to be the basis of VW & SEATs rally cars of the era, so it was designed to be tuned to 280BHP."
The ultimate VW engine :smiley:
That's the funniest thing i've heard all day :grin:
-
I've read something similar aswell on some other site, that only confirmed what i found out at the first place :smiley:
That the original ABF gain 170hp but Volkswagen didn't want to get too close to the power output of the vr6, on which they had spent soo much time and money developing.
If you have some other info that tells different please share :smiley: Since there isnt that much info about the engine itself. (why it was designed since VW had a 8v with 115hp and a big brother with 174hp. Makes no sense really to make a model that had 150hp, more then the reason i first posted).
-
The old internet myth that has doing the rounds for years, no VW did not peg the ABF back and a remap will not get the 20bhp.
The VR6 was never marketed or badged as GTI but was aimed more at the BMW 3 series market, whilst the 8v and 16v were left to the hot hatch market.
The amount of times I read this old chestnut is bonkers, the ABF is one of the hardest engines to get more power from.
To get 170bhp is going to cost you a lot of money, if anything the VR6 is easier to get more power from.
-
Fair enough, i wasnt supose to get any extra anyway :)
But why is it so hard to get any info about the ABF?
-
DO the basics, get the engine to 165ish BHP, lighten the flywheel and change the FD.
It will drive like it’s got 200+ BHP but cost you a lot less.
-
DO the basics, get the engine to 165ish BHP, lighten the flywheel and change the FD.
It will drive like it’s got 200+ BHP but cost you a lot less.
Nah, i keep it stock :) If vr6 is so great and easy to get some extra power from why isnt it used in rallycars? ABF was and are still used. Is it because ABF is the best engine VW ever made :P
-
Well I am happy with my Abf :smiley:
-
DO the basics, get the engine to 165ish BHP, lighten the flywheel and change the FD.
It will drive like it’s got 200+ BHP but cost you a lot less.
Nah, i keep it stock :) If vr6 is so great and easy to get some extra power from why isnt it used in rallycars? ABF was and are still used. Is it because ABF is the best engine VW ever made :P
Obviously never owned Mk2 16v then :wink:
-
Nope :P But MK2 is a lighter car
-
Nah, i keep it stock :) If vr6 is so great and easy to get some extra power from why isnt it used in rallycars? ABF was and are still used. Is it because ABF is the best engine VW ever made :P
Nope it is because it is lighter and helps with the handling.
-
Nope :P But MK2 is a lighter car
KR+MK2= best golf :cool:
-
Nope :P But MK2 is a lighter car
KR+MK2= best golf :cool:
Thats why so many change to ABF in their MK2's ;)
-
I always out do my mates Mk2 16v in my Abf :cool:
-
DO the basics, get the engine to 165ish BHP, lighten the flywheel and change the FD.
It will drive like it’s got 200+ BHP but cost you a lot less.
Nah, i keep it stock :) If vr6 is so great and easy to get some extra power from why isnt it used in rallycars? ABF was and are still used. Is it because ABF is the best engine VW ever made :P
Obviously never owned Mk2 16v then :wink:
Never driven a Mk6 GTI either...
The engine is quantum leaps ahead of the ABF, giving 280BHP, 330lb-ft, pulls from 1500RPM, does 35MPG and emits nothing but flower smells...all in a chassis that's so far ahead of a Mk2, the Mk2 couldn't see which way it want.
That's progress though...people need to stop living in the past!
-
Nope :P But MK2 is a lighter car
KR+MK2= best golf :cool:
Seriously?
Best in what way? Best fun...I could see that. Fun at modest speeds.
But a Mk5 or 6 will out corner it, out brake it, out accelerate it, is more refined, more comfortable, safer, better on fuel, faster point to point etc
I suppose it depends on how you define 'best' :whistle:
-
Ha it's as if Ess-Three sniffs out the smallest whiff of ABF talk whilst sneaking around in the shadows of this site. :grin:
-
Nope :P But MK2 is a lighter car
KR+MK2= best golf :cool:
Seriously?
Best in what way? Best fun...I could see that. Fun at modest speeds.
But a Mk5 or 6 will out corner it, out brake it, out accelerate it, is more refined, more comfortable, safer, better on fuel, faster point to point etc
I suppose it depends on how you define 'best' :whistle:
Well Mk4, and 5 and 6 and 7 GTI is no real GTI for all i care :P The last real GTI was made with a ABF. No Turbo crap, just a naturally aspirated engine :smiley:
-
Nope :P But MK2 is a lighter car
KR+MK2= best golf :cool:
No no no no no :shocked:
-
Well Mk4, and 5 and 6 and 7 GTI is no real GTI for all i care :P The last real GTI was made with a ABF. No Turbo crap, just a naturally aspirated engine :smiley:
Seriously?
Are you really stuck in the 90s?
-
Ha it's as if Ess-Three sniffs out the smallest whiff of ABF talk whilst sneaking around in the shadows of this site. :grin:
You rang? :grin:
-
Nope :P But MK2 is a lighter car
KR+MK2= best golf :cool:
Seriously?
Best in what way? Best fun...I could see that. Fun at modest speeds.
But a Mk5 or 6 will out corner it, out brake it, out accelerate it, is more refined, more comfortable, safer, better on fuel, faster point to point etc
I suppose it depends on how you define 'best' :whistle:
Best as in makes a middle aged man relive the 80's when Golfs were super cool and I was straining my wrists over girls in leg warmers, yeah I am a little jaded :grin:
I should not let grems get me going but I bit the hook.
The later golfs are awesome yes, better than everything so far. But to say the ABF is the be all and end all of VW engines with out even knowing what came before and what a light and nimble golf that revs to heaven and back feels like is kiddy talk.
But you can't deny that the kit kat wrapper Mk2 with a KR in it was quite something, even if it did just feel fast from vibration and road noise. .....obviously taken in the context of fun and a gammy wrist.
-
As I am finding out it takes a heck of a lot of money to get power out of an ABF!!!!!!
-
As I am finding out it takes a heck of a lot of money to get power out of an ABF!!!!!!
Honestly, i don't know :smiley: Have a ABF friend who tuned cars since he was 15 (he is 40 now). I know his ABF have 200hp by now, he iisn't rich he just have the "know how".
http://www.garaget.org/?car=162363
-
This thread is what happens when people squash their balls on the keyboard...
-
Like those flat nectarines you can get now
-
?? :huh:
-
http://www.finefoodspecialist.co.uk/flat-white-nectarines-1kg/
-
As I am finding out it takes a heck of a lot of money to get power out of an ABF!!!!!!
Honestly, i don't know :smiley: Have a ABF friend who tuned cars since he was 15 (he is 40 now). I know his ABF have 200hp by now, he iisn't rich he just have the "know how".
http://www.garaget.org/?car=162363
Shame I cant understand it!
And very surprised he getting that power with standard inlet manifold!
-
As I am finding out it takes a heck of a lot of money to get power out of an ABF!!!!!!
Honestly, i don't know :smiley: Have a ABF friend who tuned cars since he was 15 (he is 40 now). I know his ABF have 200hp by now, he iisn't rich he just have the "know how".
http://www.garaget.org/?car=162363
Shame I cant understand it!
And very surprised he getting that power with standard inlet manifold!
Yea well i talked to him again after i posted that link and all he said "it's not that hard, if you do it yourself and KNOW what you're doing".
He also had a pretty wicked 8v: http://www.volkswagengolf.se/viewtopic.php?t=38739
I'll try and trtanslate (with help of translater, so sorry in advance :P)
Ported & flattened top (see photos) mira attaching seats cut valves with 30graders backup valves
Special Ground camshaft 262grader 110nock lift 10.92 mm Schneider Camshaft by Kevin Cantrell (see data sheet below)
Adjustable cam gear from turbosport.net
Manifold is 4-2-1 with exhaust bandage from Raceland (see picture)
FK 2 ½ inch exhaust with sports cat with monitors and a cat adapter sits on now
Msd ignition coil Blaster SS Coil 8207
8mm ignition wires from MATT LEWIS RACING
Spark plug Nippondenso Iridium
Special Race Tuning Chip From Peter Konschack GmbH
Performance air filter in original tin
Powerrohr
Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator FPR set at approximately 3.6 to 3.7 bar
And the original fuel pressure regulator supplied
Maximum Processed Throttle much better starre gate plate rotary from PRODAT racing.de
processed Manifold
And an extra injection box (original) included
And the original throttle body included
And a milder tuning from Peter Konschack GmbH
And this is just what he did with his 8v, so the 16v ABF he has... well you get the idea :P
-
All of that is a lot of money even if you know what you are doing :smiley:
-
Shame I cant understand it!
And very surprised he getting that power with standard inlet manifold!
Why are you surprised?
200BHP is easily achievable on a standard inlet manifold...how well it idles, may be in question, but it'll make the power.
The Group A rally cars were using 'stock' manifolds at over 200 BHP.
I can get mine to make over 200BHP on a standard inlet & exhaust manifold...but for road use, where an MOT is required and emissions tests need to be passed, it's not practical due to the ECU MAP sensor getting confused by pulsing in the plenum caused by big duration cams.
But, once above 3000RPM the pulsing clears and the engine pulls...to over 200BHP. On 268 cams. More, on 276s.
All on a 'standard' inlet manifold.
-
All of that is a lot of money even if you know what you are doing :smiley:
Talked to him some more when i drove him to the airport. He said, as a reply:
"If you know how, then it dosent cost that much. You know what parts you need and can find the cheapest. (dont just pick the first one you see and need, search for the same part but cheaper). It's all about knowing what you do, if you dont it will cost you alot." :smiley:
-
All of that is a lot of money even if you know what you are doing :smiley:
Talked to him some more when i drove him to the airport. He said, as a reply:
"If you know how, then it dosent cost that much. You know what parts you need and can find the cheapest. (dont just pick the first one you see and need, search for the same part but cheaper). It's all about knowing what you do, if you dont it will cost you alot." :smiley:
Those cams don't cost £50, or the sport cat or the other bits and pieces you can shop around all you like but parts have a residual value even with mates rates applied :smiley:
I agree that you can save money by doing things yourself, but how many folks have use of or know somebody with a workshop or know how to use a crank grinder, how to deck a block or cut a valve seat....
Even if I do someone a favour I still charge for my time or expect a favour back, if it was that easy we would all be driving round with 200bhp ABF engines.
I am not a master engine builder but I do have 23 years experience and formal qualifications in engineering so not a complete internet bullsh!ter :grin:
-
All of that is a lot of money even if you know what you are doing :smiley:
Talked to him some more when i drove him to the airport. He said, as a reply:
"If you know how, then it dosent cost that much. You know what parts you need and can find the cheapest. (dont just pick the first one you see and need, search for the same part but cheaper). It's all about knowing what you do, if you dont it will cost you alot." :smiley:
Those cams don't cost £50, or the sport cat or the other bits and pieces you can shop around all you like but parts have a residual value even with mates rates applied :smiley:
I agree that you can save money by doing things yourself, but how many folks have use of or know somebody with a workshop or know how to use a crank grinder, how to deck a block or cut a valve seat....
Even if I do someone a favour I still charge for my time or expect a favour back, if it was that easy we would all be driving round with 200bhp ABF engines.
I am not a master engine builder but I do have 23 years experience and formal qualifications in engineering so not a complete internet bullsh!ter :grin:
Nah well, for me am only at the second or third monkey wrench in hayes when it comes to engines :grin: Best part by owning a Mk3 in Sweden, is that everyone seem to help. If i have trouble with my ABF, i'll just call him since he knows, and he will sort it. We dont need favours like that from each others, cos (as today for example he needed my help to drive him to the airport and take care of his car for a week). So it goes even in the end that way :)
-
All of that is a lot of money even if you know what you are doing :smiley:
Talked to him some more when i drove him to the airport. He said, as a reply:
"If you know how, then it dosent cost that much. You know what parts you need and can find the cheapest. (dont just pick the first one you see and need, search for the same part but cheaper). It's all about knowing what you do, if you dont it will cost you alot." :smiley:
Those cams don't cost £50, or the sport cat or the other bits and pieces you can shop around all you like but parts have a residual value even with mates rates applied :smiley:
I agree that you can save money by doing things yourself, but how many folks have use of or know somebody with a workshop or know how to use a crank grinder, how to deck a block or cut a valve seat....
Even if I do someone a favour I still charge for my time or expect a favour back, if it was that easy we would all be driving round with 200bhp ABF engines.
I am not a master engine builder but I do have 23 years experience and formal qualifications in engineering so not a complete internet bullsh!ter :grin:
Nah well, for me am only at the second or third monkey wrench in hayes when it comes to engines :grin: Best part by owning a Mk3 in Sweden, is that everyone seem to help. If i have trouble with my ABF, i'll just call him since he knows, and he will sort it. We dont need favours like that from each others, cos (as today for example he needed my help to drive him to the airport and take care of his car for a week). So it goes even in the end that way :)
I have never built a top spec ABF or any VW engine for that matter, but I know a thing or two about the B23ET/B230ET and the mighty 240 Turbo Brick :cool: