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Model specific boards => Golf mk2 => Topic started by: tehas on 28 September 2013, 18:17
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Hello guys/girls(if any)
I have been having some issues lately with starting up my mk2, it's not a GTI, but still an mk2.
I am not a mechanic myself, but maybe someday will get into it.
some details about the car:
year made 1987 November,
engine 1.8 petrol, 66kW with full injection
more about the problem:
In the morning it takes a lot of time to start the engine going. turning up the key, the car gives a single roar, as if it was about to start, but suddenly it doesnt, and if keep holding the starter going - nothing happens. I dont burn the starter for 5 minutes straight, but after 5-7 minutes of heating up the sparks and ignition unit, the engine eventually starts to run.
first try: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIE9dy0Agss&feature=youtu.be
part where starts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUD9oMbD9io&feature=youtu.be
It becomes funny when first start is always like this in videos, but later on in the day, when the engine is warm it starts quite fast, so my thoughts was that there must be a leak of fuel somewhere in the system or a vacuum problem.
I have had a consulation with mechanic, and after 2 hours of playing with injection system and installing a non-returning valve into incoming fuel hose, the mechanic told me that there must be a problem with idle air control valve.
Would it be a solution in your head? or maybe something else pops in your mind that my friend has not thought of?
Would any of you know how would it be possible to check the ICV without taking it out, for the part number, so it would be possible to find the exact same one on the web.
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hi what is an icv?
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idle air control valve, i was gonna take it out today, clean for all the nasty stuff with some carb cleaner, but i really doubt its gonna work. that's why i was hoping anybody had a similar problem and would share their knowledge
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I don't think it is the idle control valve. Recently one of the wires to my ICV rotted through within its sheath and broke off, the symptom I got was the inability to idle, go figure. The car required me to add throttle when it hadn't warmed up yet or it would stall, however it never failed to start. Failure to start is much more likely an ignition problem.
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the wire in the covering, hm. what are the chances of that happening without stretching them?
I have checked my throttle body today for sludge or dirt, but it was not dirty at all. I wonder if the stepper motor could be a problem here, what would you think?
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We call it ISV (Idle Stabilisation Valve)
Like this? If it is look at search and type ISV issues or rough idle or erratic idle
(http://www.vagdiscount.com/images/037906457Dh.jpg)
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this is one i am talking about. ISV, well ICV was close enough, as it stood for idle control valve. but stabilization and control are quite similar.
thanks, i'll look it up
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One point to remember they are made in 8V form and a 16V version. NOT interchangeable borrow one and see if it helps before spending monies :wink:
Stabilization (American)
Stabilisation (UK English)
Both correct might help in search parameters :tongue:
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it's quite strange, today when i start it cold, it gives one shout, as of rpms going from 0 to 0.2 and dropping back to 0 completely, first 3 attempts one after each other, same result.
give it 2 minutes, try to start again, now it goes up to 0.5 rpms, and drops to 0, give it another 2 minutes, try to start again, it jumps to 0.8 not once, but a couple times, and drops to 0 rpm. another 2 minutes, and it starts from half a turn, but requires some acceleration to keep the engine running. once it warms up (10-15 seconds of holding acceleration between 1-1.5 rpms) and it runs good.
I still believe it is idle stabilisation valve, as people had the exact problem with it, whilist others had a bad fuel injection to the fuel distribution unit. As my car has a full injection, not digi or mono, and I can hear working properly, I assume there has to be some problem with ISV or wiring. Unfortunetaly I havent got an electro-meter to check voltage or resistance on my temperature sender wires. Is there any possibility to check them without having this meter?
or maybe my description of a problem gave you another thought?
thanks again
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You need to check the idle valve buzzes when you turn ignition on and check the management temperature sensor or eliminate it by replacing it. Get one fo these, you'll need it time and again.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Multi-Meter-Measure-and-Leads-Ammeter-Tester-with-Digital-LCD-Display-Screen-/151134117543?pt=UK_Baby_FeedingSets_RL&hash=item23304b9ea7
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Good call in a multi meter there oakgreen!
When you buy the multi meter you can check the voltage to the injectors to make sure the wires have not gone crusty due to manifold heat.
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cheers guys, waiting for post to handle the shipment. will let you know about the electrical results
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Hey guys,
some time has passed, but still, i found a solution, or at least how to go around my problem.
I have checked my cold start valve, whether it's working when i'm starting up, and appearently, it wasnt, so I made a bypass in the thermotime switch plug, and tested it again, it was still not working.
After that, i decided to test if my sprinkler was working in the cold start valve, so i connected it with a cable to plus, and another one to ground, and it was sprinkling gasoline. so i felt happy about it. After digging in and testing a little more around. I decided i can create a mechanical injection for cold start valve myself.
So my little experiment started with finding a plug and connecting it to ground (yellow circle) and switching from original plug (white circle) to my new plug:
(http://i.imgur.com/pOLDjh5.jpg)
After that, i lead the plug to the cabin, through some place where some vaccum hose was going:
(http://i.imgur.com/huFny5H.jpg)
As i got that cable to the cabin, i needed to get a plus signal from somewhere, so i got it from radio adapter:
(http://i.imgur.com/VbneCKn.jpg)
And in the end, i tested it with the cold start valve (or 5th injector) out of the inlet manifold to see if it works (of course there was some homemade lamp tests before), and it did work. So whenever i cannot start the car (ussually when it's stone cold), i gotta spark those two cables (in the last picture blue and brown cables) to get some fuel sprayed to inlet manifold.
I am going to install a non-toggle switch soon.
Will be using this for a while to drive to work, until i find a proper solution why the default plug is not working.
I havent received my multi-meter yet, strange tho.
Any ideas? maybe thermoswitch sensor is faulty?
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If I remember rightly the voltage comes through the WUR (warm up regulator)to the fifth injector?
So if you have a broken WUR its grey, with electrical plug attached, and on the left side of the chassis leg with rubber vacuum pipe attached to it. This can cause the reason why no fuel is going through because it depends upon the WUR to send the electrical signal to activate it. The WUR senses the cold air and hence helps to switch on the fifth Injector on.
I would put back the wires you have butchered, clean up any earths to gear box and change out the WUR (warm up regulator) and take it from there!
All you have done is prove the fifth injector works?
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my WUR has 3 connections, one is electrical plug, and other two are fuel in and out. there is no vacuum hose going to/out WUR in my vehicle.
WUR itself, has a leg'ish pole looking thing coming out of WUR, but it has a ruber cover. Should it be connected to something or it is normal that this leg is blocked?
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Okay the Warm up regulator is something you will need to swap out and yes its the one with fuel pipes going into body and senses temperature against the block, But the other thing you should check is
The grey Over run cut off valve this is the one that is linked to the the metering head the block and cold start valve elbow (just one electrical connector).
If it helps I will take some pictures, but the Hayes manual should show you this do you have one?
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What could be wrong with warm up regulator, and is there any chance I could do it myself?
My wur looks like this:
(http://i.imgur.com/CV5NCFd.jpg)
And I believe over run cut off valve is this one:
(http://i.imgur.com/Cvsakow.jpg)
bad quality image, but it's the one on the left with electrical plug in, right?
what should i check about this valve?
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WUR: engine must be cold or bellow 30C
1) has meter arrived yet?
2) Take HT lead off dizzy the king lead will do and earth it to something
3) Crank the engine, undo the connector plug on the WUR voltage should be 11.5V+ present
4) turn off the ignition switch and check Ohms reading on the connector resistance will be about 20-26 Ohms anything less its defective (replace)
Picture two is weird looks like a Idle speed valve, but only ever seen on aircon models? Is yours air-conditioned?
This is over run valve I was talking about!
To test it Get engine to temperature let engine idle afterwards manually make sure the full throttle switch is closed, if you manually open throttle to 2000rpm it should surge showing its working. If not surging then unplug connector bridge the contacts and see if surges if it does temperature sender is okay, but over run valve is finished. if does not surge on bridged connector the temperature sender needs replacing!
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/VW-GOLF-MK2-16V-GTI-OVER-RUN-CUT-OFF-VALVE-3-99-NO-RESERVE-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/-pYAAOxyaTxRKxk5/$%28KGrHqF,!k8FEM42IYkZBRK%29k5fF5Q~~60_35.JPG)
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Over run cut off valve, mine looks as in the picture i post below, just really rusty, and the rubber hose going to cold start valve elbow is really thick, impossible to bend.
Is it not called auxiliary air valve?
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTl1YH1faHSnMmP_QaYA24TToAKjyvIVUJkRnT9RTGpoa7yLhf8)
Still waiting on my multi-meter.
You were correct with butchered cables. I had it connected to radio/cabin light/clock fuse, which broken yesterday. it was a 15A fuse, so I am lead to believe it's not a child's play to make my own mechanical/electrical injections.
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Yes I think yours is an early K jet 16v what year and yes back then even wax stats were made from metal these days plastic due to less corrosion and heat soak plus cheaper manufacturing on plastic.
Yours must have had air conditioning or someone had taken parts from another 16v and used them in your car at some point I think? I would be best to find a fellow golf owner 16ver and swap out known working bits just for testing.
One thing before you started working on her was the spark plugs sooty and rich I'm asking as I'm not sure if you have fuel starvation on start up or over fueling during start up?
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i'm using a 8v'er
and sparks are dry. i believe it might be fuel starvation, but nevertheless, as i was using my constructed 'switch', it started up nicely without any coughs or misfires, the only thing is that before it warms up to normal temperature, without acceleration it tends to stall. i needed to push accelerator pedal to keep up revs.
whenever heated up to normal working temperature, it's fine, revs keep jumping a little by +-50 rpms
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some time passed, but who ever has a simillar problem, might find a solution here.
why was my car not able to start properly, was because of junk filled in the fuel distributor on the air filter and a temperature sensor failure. after disassambling fuel distributor and cleaning junk + changing temp sensor the vehicle started as it should start.
hope this helps :)
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Great news Tehas, fuel distributor you mean you had blocked fuel metering head surprised to be honest as it must mean the fuel filter on the rear of the car must be full of junk aswell you might need to strip it off and inspect and order a new fuel filter!
Which temperature sensor did you change, the one on the block?
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yes, the metering head!
fuel filter changed for a new one as well.
and the temp sensor is this one:
(http://i.imgur.com/3VIdVfM.jpg)
electrician told me there were some cables disrupted throughout the system, which gave signal to the 5th injector (cold start injector), that's why it was not working every time it supposed to.
anyhow. PHEW ! :smug:
happy it's working as intended now