GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk7 => Topic started by: DevonK on 03 September 2013, 10:48
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Apparently there are oil pressure issues that arise when tracking a GTI that can have very serious consequences. This from a US-based forum:
For those who haven't seen some earlier posts, APR (Audi-Porsche Racing) was having engine troubles in their Continental Tire VW GTI so did an oil pressure test. They printed the results online 6/3/13. Check it out at www.goapr.com (http://www.goapr.com). It shows the oil pressure in the VW engine drops critically low during lateral acceleration (going fast around curves). Less than 10 psi. Normal is 35-45 psi. The result: Catastrophic engine failure, namely crank or rod bearing failure. If you like spirited driving (and why would you be reading this if you didn't), you go around a cloverleaf, on-off ramps and twisty-bits driving a GTI with some level of high throttle application, you will cause bearing damage. It all adds up and one day the engine will go kablooey, as my 2011 with 32,000 miles did on 6/1/13......
The intake manifold flappers also break, so I'm just waiting for one more big breakdown from my 2011 VW GTI and we're going Lemon Law!!!
Anybody here know if this has been addressed in the Mk 7 design? It would be unbelievable if VW knowingly let this slide...
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Nah…VW just build the yank ones cheaper* because the buggers pay about £16k for theirs
*A blatant lie, the price they pay is true though
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You get them for half price over there? Seriously?
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You get them for half price over there? Seriously?
No one would buy them otherwise. They are priced well down the pecking order; if they cost the same as they do over here the yanks wouldn't buy them because they can buy an SUV for that kind of money. Either VW take a massive loss (which is unlikely given the US cars are built in Mexico ie. much, much cheaper than being made in Germany) or more likely we get overcharged (as usual). And of course the price of petrol is significantly cheaper in the US so they win again. :angry:
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Hold on a minute. So what you're telling me is we pay for the Americans to have their cars? And the reason is because "No (American) would buy them otherwise"? :huh: Well if they don't want to pay they can do without then can't they? Thats how it usually works! Wow.
Thats a f**king stupid reason. Here's an idea. How about the Americans pay for our cars for a bit? I'm gonna call VW and tell them I've changed my mind about cancelling since I heard about this "someone else pays for your car" deal. I want my GTI back, but instead of £32k I'm going to pay them £12k and they can collect the remaining balance from VWUSA okie dokie?
FFS what is this sh!t?
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Hold on a minute. So what you're telling me is we pay for the Americans to have their cars? And the reason is because "No (American) would buy them otherwise"? :huh: Well if they don't want to pay they can do without then can't they? Thats how it usually works! Wow.
Thats a f**king stupid reason. Here's an idea. How about the Americans pay for our cars for a bit? I'm gonna call VW and tell them I've changed my mind about cancelling since I heard about this "someone else pays for your car" deal. I want my GTI back, but instead of £32k I'm going to pay them £12k and they can collect the remaining balance from VWUSA okie dokie?
FFS what is this sh!t?
Metallic paint is free over there and they get a 10 year power train warranty too, because the market dictates that they’ll need to do that to make a sale over the US domestic competition. They pay about US$25k for their GTIs and less for lesser Golfs.
How much does labour contribute to the cost of a Golf GTI? It’s a cert that German VW workers will be paid a minimum of 3x a Mexican worker, but Mexico is by no means a 3rd world country. I wonder how many “man hours” go into a 30 hour construction Golf to say that the Mexican is probably on US$10 an hour and the German is on US$30. The price disparity would suggest 700 man hours to account for the US$14000 difference – no way in the world. It’s good to know that we’re propping up US sales of VW by paying well over the odds compared to them.
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I just can't muster the energy to get worked up over price differences in different countries, as great as they might be. I earn what I earn, afford what I can afford, and enjoy it knowing I'm in the same boat as everybody else in this country. To pay US prices means living in the US, and that's not something I'm particularly keen on or bothered about - there is far more to life than the price of goods!
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I just can't muster the energy to get worked up over price differences in different countries, as great as they might be. I earn what I earn, afford what I can afford, and enjoy it knowing I'm in the same boat as everybody else in this country. To pay US prices means living in the US, and that's not something I'm particularly keen on or bothered about - there is far more to life than the price of goods!
Agreed (not about living in the US bit though). We are far better off than other countries such as Ireland where we know that their cars are more expensive and get no where near the standard equipment we get. Same in the likes of Austrailia where you will be paying through the nose for a GTI
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The German price list I obtained doesn't seem to be any cheaper than UK one.
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Agreed (not about living in the US bit though). We are far better off than other countries such as Ireland where we know that their cars are more expensive and get no where near the standard equipment we get. Same in the likes of Austrailia where you will be paying through the nose for a GTI
I guess parts of the US would be OK to live in, poor generalisation there, but yep, it's all too easy for us to focus on one element and say how we get ripped off whilst ignoring the rest of the world and everything else in this country.
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Is everyone around here smoking reefer today? This issue is a complete deal-breaker for me, and will be for many, many other buyers.... especially since it can be objectively demonstrated very easily, unlike many other types of reliability issues. I guess everyone around here drives like my granny so they don't give a toss... ;D Let's see what the good folks at VWVortex have to say...
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Is everyone around here smoking reefer today? This issue is a complete deal-breaker for me, and will be for many, many other buyers.... especially since it can be objectively demonstrated very easily, unlike many other types of reliability issues. I guess everyone around here drives like my granny so they don't give a toss... ;D Let's see what the good folks at VWVortex have to say...
So its a deal breaker that a problem with a mk 6 will stop you getting a mk7? :rolleyes:
Plus, I drive my cars like they're stolen (within the laws of the road :smiley:) and I never had my engine go kaputt on my mk 6!
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Sorry I got majorly distracted by the price you can apparently pick this baby up for in the states.
The problem sounds serious but I've never heard of it before. Got any stats on how often this is happening? If it is 1 in 10,000 then so what? Get the extended warranty and you're fine. If its 1 in 10 then that is a big problem for VW.
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So its a deal breaker that a problem with a mk 6 will stop you getting a mk7
FYI, that is the whole point of the post - to find out if the Mk 7 has addressed the issue. You may feel fine assuming VW has, I'm definitely not.
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^FYI, that is the whole point of the post - to find out if the Mk 7 has addressed the issue. You may feel fine assuming VW has, I'm definitely not.
Not seen any statements from VW that the problem exists or that its rectified, but I wasn't looking for them either. Presumably its too early to know for sure as few cars will have done 30k miles given that (for us at least) most only exist on a computer and haven't been built yet. I know they've had them for longer in Europe, but still 30k miles is a lot to have done in a year and I'm not sure they've even had them for a year yet... further if they have got cars on 30k already that would most likely be 99% motorway miles and not throwing it enthusiastically around corners.
tl;dr: I don't know.
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The problem sounds serious but I've never heard of it before. Got any stats on how often this is happening? If it is 1 in 10,000 then so what? Get the extended warranty and you're fine. If its 1 in 10 then that is a big problem for VW.
Well the problem itself (oil pressure drop) is either going to happen in every car or no car because it's straightforward physics given the engine/oil system design and a given lateral G load. In no way is 10 psi oil pressure adequate - damage is going to occur, how long it takes is the question which will obviously depend on how the car's driven. No performance-oriented car should have this kind of blatant weakness in its design.
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^FYI, that is the whole point of the post - to find out if the Mk 7 has addressed the issue. You may feel fine assuming VW has, I'm definitely not.
Not seen any statements from VW that the problem exists or that its rectified, but I wasn't looking for them either. Presumably its too early to know for sure as few cars will have done 30k miles given that (for us at least) most only exist on a computer and haven't been built yet. I know they've had them for longer in Europe, but still 30k miles is a lot to have done in a year and I'm not sure they've even had them for a year yet... further if they have got cars on 30k already that would most likely be 99% motorway miles and not throwing it enthusiastically around corners.
tl;dr: I don't know.
Thanks for the response.
Everyone should have a look at APR's explanation of the problem (complete with data) here (http://www.goapr.com/products/oil_protection_system_20tsi.html).
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So its a deal breaker that a problem with a mk 6 will stop you getting a mk7
FYI, that is the whole point of the post - to find out if the Mk 7 has addressed the issue. You may feel fine assuming VW has, I'm definitely not.
Or, I could assume that having owned a mk 6 and having never ever heard of that problem in the time I owned one/reading about VW's prior/during & since, that a random post on an American website wouldn't put me off buying a completely revamped version of the Golf ie the mk 7. :rolleyes:
Sorry, don't mean to be sarcy but even if there was a problem (which there clearly isn't IMO) you're covered by the warranty anyway. But personally I really don't see it as an issue - especially not to stop you buying one. :smiley:
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One thing about APR, they are trying to sell their product. Not saying the issue doesn't exist, but they do have a vested interest in making as big a deal of it as they can (and obviously VW have the reverse interest).
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One thing about APR, they are trying to sell their product. Not saying the issue doesn't exist, but they do have a vested interest in making as big a deal of it as they can (and obviously VW have the reverse interest).
Good point Bear.
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One thing about APR, they are trying to sell their product. Not saying the issue doesn't exist, but they do have a vested interest in making as big a deal of it as they can (and obviously VW have the reverse interest).
Absolutely. And if you are not tracking your car it may not be a problem. The car APR ran the test on was a full on race car with racing slicks so it was no doubt pulling much greater Gs than we would bombing B-roads. But to those who do plan to track their cars it is still a concern. I will have to check with more "track-oriented" forums to see if this has been a problem. The fact that the guy's engine blew up after only 31K miles is not reassuring, but it is only 1 data point. Still, I don't relish the idea of buying a performance car and then worrying that every time I take a few fast corners I may be adding incremental damage that will eventually torpedo the engine.
This is the whole point of dry-sump oil systems, to avoid just this type of fatal oil starvation - the new Corvette has it available as an option as part of their Z51 sport/track package, and VW should offer it as well. In fact it should be standard on all Rs.
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The one major issue i had with my Mk6 and i hope the gti mk7 doesnt have it is the misting and fogging of the windscreen in the winter months, one winter it was so bad i had frost on the inside of my cabin.....
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the engine in the mk7 has evolved since the EA888 in the rocco
the only cars i know where this has been an issue were the roccos when they first entered the VW cup in 2009 and a rocco modded for track which popped a few turbos
that said plenty of cars out there have plenty of stick
the main issue appears to be tensioner on the old engine
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Are you sure APR isn't just emphasising a racetrack issue on a heavily modified car to sell its race oil system to enthusiasts? (clue - they are)
I'd think the development which VW puts its cars through means the lubrication system is more than adequate for road use.
As for the comments about VW's pricing strategy for the US - if you don't price accordingly for the destination market, you won't sell anything. You've always been able to buy an awful lot of car for not much in the US. US market Mk5 and Mk6 GTI's were built in Germany, though I believe the Mk7 will be assembled in Mexico.
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Just because a company is taking advantage of the issue to make some money does not preclude the actual existence of the issue.
You'd think that VW would do enough QA to find such a significant problem but at least a few people I've seen are reporting it - and that is without doing any searches on the topic at all. The VW track record for reliability in NA hardly needs commenting on, not something I would put much faith in.
Are you sure APR isn't just emphasising a racetrack issue on a heavily modified car to sell its race oil system to enthusiasts? (clue - they are)
I'd think the development which VW puts its cars through means the lubrication system is more than adequate for road use.
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As for the comments about VW's pricing strategy for the US - if you don't price accordingly for the destination market, you won't sell anything. You've always been able to buy an awful lot of car for not much in the US. US market Mk5 and Mk6 GTI's were built in Germany, though I believe the Mk7 will be assembled in Mexico.
If they can afford to sell VWs in the US at little or no profit, just to have a market presence there (presumably in the hope that in future the VW brand will be sought after enough to command a premium like BMW and Merc doin the states), then it seems reasonable to assume that the European consumer is subsidising their cars by overpaying for them. I'd rather see them not sell in the US (if there is almost no profit) so I can have mine £2k cheaper because i'm not subsidising anyone.
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US Market - as already mentioned the cars are available for much cheaper than the EU. You have to consider Domestic market competition. You can see the difference by speccing a GTI on the US website...
As for the Race oil system, I don't think you need to make a big deal out of it. VW designed a road car not a race car and tbh there are cheaper/lighter cars to take round a track than a GTI.
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Just because a company is taking advantage of the issue to make some money does not preclude the actual existence of the issue.
I 'm not precluding the issue – I’m saying that unless you are in a significantly modified race car on a constant radius corner at high speed pulling over 1G lateral acceleration, it isn’t an issue. This is something VW don't need to test for because a showroom GTI isn't a racecar.
But if you think your engine might benefit from it, go for it.
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The consumer demand drives the price within any region of the world, more fool the EU consumer for paying silly prices for a modern day hatch that not that many years ago was never in the £30k price bracket.
Any hot hatch over the £20k price bracket is questionable, but we pay through the nose due to the demand and pretty much the badge snobbery that does exist in today's society.
The price differential between the EU and the remainder of the world is nothing new, different markets attract different consumer demand, bigger the choice, cheaper the product - simple economics.
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Just because a company is taking advantage of the issue to make some money does not preclude the actual existence of the issue.
I 'm not precluding the issue – I’m saying that unless you are in a significantly modified race car on a constant radius corner at high speed pulling over 1G lateral acceleration, it isn’t an issue. This is something VW don't need to test for because a showroom GTI isn't a racecar.
From what I have read over at VWVortex the issue isn't that clear-cut. A few people have had the same problem driving their retail unmodded cars on 40 mph autocrosses (see this thread (http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6071229-MKVI-2.0-is-a-defective-engine........)). To me that means there may be a problem. I would certainly research this thoroughly before pulling the trigger on a GTI.
It can be argued that a street car should not be expected to function reliably under autocross conditions but the GTI is not promoted as a commuter car - it's marketed as a car for enthusiasts and it seems stupid for VW not spec it so it can handle a weekend autocross without possibly trashing the engine. Other car companies manage it.
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Having replaced loads of parts on my Audis, G40 and a Sierra Cosworth I would say that most road cars are not designed for really enthusiastic (road) driving, so I am not too worried about this.
I spent a little time in the automotive industry and the constraints of design/cost are that you go for what the majority of your users will need, and not really much more unless they are prepared to pay a significant premium over the competition.
Just my opinion as always :)