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General => General discussion => Topic started by: Lewy on 29 August 2013, 23:56
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...with the outcome of the voting in the HoP tonight, it looks like we won't be going to 'war' with Syria. It's not the end of the story, or even the UK's involvement, but for now it looks like it'll be a US only fight.
What do you guys think, as I for one are happy as a pig in sh!t about it?
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...with the outcome of the voting in the HoP tonight, it looks like we won't be going to 'war' with Syria. It's not the end of the story, or even the UK's involvement, but for now it looks like it'll be a US only fight.
What do you guys think, as I for one are happy as a pig in sh!t about it?
if it keeps any more soldiers from being hurt or worse thank f**k
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Look, there are bears in the war:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/syria-conflict-intensifies-as-bears-enter-war,33659/
Why the f*ck would we want to go there?!
The good thing is that the USA are thinking carefully:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/obama-weighing-his-syria-option,33641/
:whistle:
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dont know a massive amount about it... but i think were right to stay out of it at the moment...
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Today the Syrians want him out, and if we take him out tommorow they will burn the union flag as thanks.
Leave em to it I say, let one of the Arab nations step in and sort it out its their back yard not ours.
The region is backwards end of story (and to some degree needs people like Assad to give stability and allow people to live some sort of life. Just look at Egypt, Libya and Iraq as soon as you depose the tyrant it reverts back tribal war about religion and who owns the land.
With most of the population ignorant and blinded by superstition about some guy called God all you will ever get is trouble. At least Assad is the head of a Secular government the oposition is made up of Martyrs ready to die and meet their maker at the word of a manipulative tyrant in the making)
Build a wall around it move on.
As for Milliband, you can just hear the electioneering going on now did not oppose it for the benefit of the UK just for the benefit of gaining office. Dont politicians make you sick.....
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Only thing I will add is that I wish that the UN wern't so ineffective.
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About fooking time the country said NO :cool:
And I am pleased too ! Knowing how small the forces manpower is I might have been called back up :laugh:
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I'm pleased our politicians haven't jumped in...although a large number did vote yes.
Past experiences show that it rarely goes to plan and the British public simply doesn't have the appetite for this type of conquest after Afghanistan AND particularity Iraq.
They've cut the Armed forces back yet want to spread them out in multiple conflicts.
It's regrettable to see what is happening in Syria and there are other ways countries can help...and it doesn't seem like their neighbours are rushing to intervene any time soon :rolleyes:.
I was thinking how similar Dave was sounding to Tony Blair in the last week.
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Saturday night.It's dark and raining. Your walking home after a few pints and from the alleyway you hear a woman scream for help. You stop and look into the alley and can make out the shadows of several men surrounding the woman.
What do you do?
Do you intervene to protect the woman even at risk of your personal safety?
Do you wait for visual conformation that she's is in fact being raped and beaten before you intervene?
Do you walk away and phone it it on 999?
Do you do nothing?
Before you answer, reflect on what kind of a man you really are, and how you wan't others to think of you.
Now transpose your answer to Syria and your the PM.
Sleep soundly.
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You need to add that you sold the men in the alley the knives and bats they are now weilding so know what damage they can do you :sick:
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Do the relevant politicians lose sleep over Iraq? After all it was the correct decision, right?
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Saturday night.It's dark and raining. Your walking home after a few pints and from the alleyway you hear a woman scream for help. You stop and look into the alley and can make out the shadows of several men surrounding the woman.
Surely it's more like:
Saturday night.It's dark and raining. Your walking home after quite a few pints and from the alleyway you hear a scream. You stop and look into the alley and can make out the shadows of several men facing another group of men.
Only an arrogant nutcase would venture into that alley.
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Saturday night.It's dark and raining. Your walking home after a few pints and from the alleyway you hear a woman scream for help. You stop and look into the alley and can make out the shadows of several men surrounding the woman.
Surely it's more like:
Saturday night.It's dark and raining. Your walking home after quite a few pints and from the alleyway you hear a scream. You stop and look into the alley and can make out the shadows of several men facing another group of men.
Only an arrogant nutcase would venture into that alley.
If I have to explain the analogy you really are a stupid boy.
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Explain away please.
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Explain away please.
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o270/DarranSims/pikemain2.jpg) (http://media.photobucket.com/user/DarranSims/media/pikemain2.jpg.html)
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s261/Edition30/historytoday.jpg) (http://media.photobucket.com/user/Edition30/media/historytoday.jpg.html)
THAT'S YOU, THAT IS.
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Good old back stabbing labour party! giving Syria, and the other Mickey Mouse countries the green light to use indiscriminate chemical weapons... maybe just a little bit timid over making about another WMD scenario taking place... Oh hang on a minute! that was Tony Blair FFS
God help this country if it doesn't show conviction like Maggie did, and had the balls to sort out the Falklands!
This was not about putting troops on the ground, or oil, this was about putting some Cruise missiles though peoples letterboxes!
If it could be proved without doubt, that the Syrian Govt were to blame, then a decision should have been a no brainer
British, and American Intelligence services are amongst the best in the world, and should be trusted in situations like these... potentially thousands more innocent Syrians could now well die, in horrific circumstances due to this in my opinion, very poor decision!
Chemical attacks are the lowest of the low
Thom
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_of_the_Syrian_Army
Russia has a good customer in Syria......
Good old back stabbing labour party! giving Syria, and the other Mickey Mouse countries the green light to use indiscriminate chemical weapons... maybe just a little bit timid over making about another WMD scenario taking place... Oh hang on a minute! that was Tony Blair FFS
God help this country if it doesn't show conviction like Maggie did, and had the balls to sort out the Falklands!
This was not about putting troops on the ground, or oil, this was about putting some Cruise missiles though peoples letterboxes!
If it could be proved without doubt, that the Syrian Govt were to blame, then a decision should have been a no brainer
British, and American Intelligence services are amongst the best in the world, and should be trusted in situations like these... potentially thousands more innocent Syrians could now well die, in horrific circumstances due to this in my opinion, very poor decision!
Chemical attacks are the lowest of the low
Thom
Agreed
Until it can be proved we have to live with the legacy of Iraq and WMD's that dont exist, our boys should not die or be spat at in the streets, until 100% proof is shown then people are going to have to die putting more blood on Mr Blairs hands.
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"I never worry about action, but only inaction"
Winston Chrurchill
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Not by speeches and votes of the majority, are the great questions of the time decided— but by iron and blood.......
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"I never worry about action, but only inaction"
Winston Chrurchill
Better jaw jaw than war war, same bloke.
on the other hand why stop at cruise missiles? Our tridents are loaded with some A grade Cumbrian Plute. That'l learn 'em.
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Why don't you have a read up on the Srebrenica massacre and learn the value of inaction.
Doing nothing is easy. Doing the right thing, that's hard.
If you have the means and opportunity to stop something bad happening, do it. The world will thank you for it.
Opinion polls don't save lives.
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"I never worry about action, but only inaction"
Winston Chrurchill
Well why don't you join up and do your bit then :rolleyes:
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The Falklands was of national interest, if the UN or NATO agree to step in then fair enough but where do you stop?
Zimbabwe/many other African nations - Dodgy government.
North Korea - The dodgiest regime of them all if the media is to be believed.
China's human rights record in the past...and so on.
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It now turns out that the Islamic Fundamentalist rebels might well have let off a gas bomb. Why not bomb both sides to show how tough we are?
On the other hand, if we were to launch a nuclear attack perhaps we could take over their whole country as in the old glory days of Empire. Remember, The British know what's best for you.
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Egbutt...you're not coming across as much of a loyal subject of the Crown? :grin:
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the human race has really lost its way lol. the darn animals on this planet are more civilised than the people. and it all comes down to greed.
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the human race has really lost its way lol. the darn animals on this planet are more civilised than the people. and it all comes down to greed.
Don't forget religion
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It's all evolution; religion. wars, liberals, dogs. Get over it.
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evolution to what exactly? self destruction. there is so many da*n a%$holes in the world. and off course they cant be wiped out because that would breach their human rights.
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I take a differing perspective and Poach touched on this!
Why don't we fly humanitarian flags in other countries?
Africa?
China?
North Korea?
Why Syria in particular? Think hard on this one people? :undecided:
I'm more surprised Obama took the bait! :wink:
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I take a differing perspective and Poach touched on this!
Why don't we fly humanitarian flags in other countries?
Africa?
China?
North Korea?
Why Syria in particular? Think hard on this one people? :undecided:
I'm more surprised Obama took the bait! :wink:
No. It's certainly NOT oil jay.
In terms of Global ranks for Oil exports - Barrels per day:
1. Saudi Arabia
2. Russia
3. Iran
.
.
.
19. United Kingdom
.
.
41. Thailand
42. Syria
43. Denmark
.
http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?c=sy&v=95
Syria is an undemocratic, dictatorial regime that is killing its civilians in order to maintain the status quo.
It just happens to be near Israel and the Suez Canal. :whistle:
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I take a differing perspective and Poach touched on this!
Why don't we fly humanitarian flags in other countries?
Africa?
China?
North Korea?
Why Syria in particular? Think hard on this one people? :undecided:
I'm more surprised Obama took the bait! :wink:
No. It's certainly NOT oil jay.
In terms of Global ranks for Oil exports - Barrels per day:
1. Saudi Arabia
2. Russia
3. Iran
.
.
.
19. United Kingdom
.
.
41. Thailand
42. Syria
43. Denmark
.
http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?c=sy&v=95
Syria is an undemocratic, dictatorial regime that is killing its civilians in order to maintain the status quo.
It just happens to be near Israel and the Suez Canal. :whistle:
And one of Russia's biggest buyers of military kit.
On the point of taking "The Bait" you have to consider if Obama actually laid it first, its a funny old world you know
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I take a differing perspective and Poach touched on this!
Why don't we fly humanitarian flags in other countries?
Africa?
China?
North Korea?
Why Syria in particular? Think hard on this one people? :undecided:
I'm more surprised Obama took the bait! :wink:
No. It's certainly NOT oil jay.
In terms of Global ranks for Oil exports - Barrels per day:
1. Saudi Arabia
2. Russia
3. Iran
.
.
.
19. United Kingdom
.
.
41. Thailand
42. Syria
43. Denmark
.
http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?c=sy&v=95
Syria is an undemocratic, dictatorial regime that is killing its civilians in order to maintain the status quo.
It just happens to be near Israel and the Suez Canal. :whistle:
And one of Russia's biggest buyers of military kit.
On the point of taking "The Bait" you have to consider if Obama actually laid it first, its a funny old world you know
Syria owes Russia a sh!t load of cash from the USSR days. Around $14 Billion. IIRC they wrote off a large chunk if they bought their arms from Russia exclusively.
At the collapse of the USSR the Russians lost access to the Mediterranean for its Navy.
In a rather helpful gesture, Syria allowed Russia to use the port of Tartus as a Russian Navy port.
And that's why Putin is not really in favour of Obama helping the rebels.
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Funny indeed Russia holding such power, just like chess really?
But like I said Pawn or knights :wink:
Don't get me wrong it should be stopped and UN are more worried about getting policy right than doing the correct thing here.
But history was supposed to teach and not repeat itself of the same mistakes right?
For me neighboring countries and energy or resources are the key players here.
Its been like this for thousands of years you can't deny history and whats been played out already within our own century already?
Same story....... Gas or nukes good old WMD?
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Good to know the Cold War isn't dead and buried isn't it.
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lol to all off it.
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Sunni or Shia, which is best?
There's only one way to find out...
Fiiiight.
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for the love of money is the root of all evil :embarrassed: there is no saying truer than this one
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for the love of money is the root of all evil :embarrassed: there is no saying truer than this one
For the West to attack the Shia regime in support of the Sunnis would be the worst thing we could possibly do. Because the Shias will fight back.
And if they can't attack the USA then they will attack the USAs little brother who lives next door, Israel.
And the Syrians might just be angry enough to use unconventional weapons, raining down on Tel Aviv.
Israel would not hesitate in those circumstances to completely destroy Damascus with a nuclear warhead.
As the Syrian regime is nominally socialist the Russians would be forced to support them.
We could all kiss goodby to our GTIs then.
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how do you mean kiss goodbye to gtis?
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Unless you keep yours in a coal mine it will not survive a nuclear war.
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The Shia's are about 12% of Syria's population, 75% of it is Sunni.
Sunni's don't like Iran which is 95% Shia and about 40% of the worlds total Shia population
Nobody likes Israel especialy Iran, they have been persecuted from the beginning of time.....
Quite a mess.
I've got an 8v so Im not too bothered
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Religious divisions...how tiresome :rolleyes:.
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I wonder how we would all feel were the situation reversed?
What if one of the peaceful demonstrations of the last few years in Britain had resulted in the British Army attacking the protesters? What if whole counties and cities were under daily attack from artillery and the Royal Air Force? What is out friends and families had their homes, their jobs, their lives, destroyed? What if we were starving, waiting each day for the bomb or sniper that kills us? What if millions of Britains had fled to Ireland and France where they were interned in makeshift camps? What if after all this a nerve agent was used on Birmingham or Glasgow or Leeds?
And Syria said to us... "Its nothing to do with us, we shouldn't be risking our own lives for you, you're all as bad as each other anyway." and did nothing to help. Do you think we'd thank them for that? Would we consider their decision 'understandable'? I doubt it.
But never mind eh? Please do continue to advance all the excuses for not becoming involved so everyone can keep a clear conscience and feel morally superior.
We are involved. Because we are all humans. We should be protecting the weak and standing up for those who cannot stand up for themselves. We should be doing this, if for no other reason, because it is what we would want others to do for us. Whatever the reasons, whatever the complex political or social background, it does not matter! There is one thing we need to remember, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. We are all responsible for what happens in Syria because we are all responsible for our own decisions. What happens after is a different question. Oppose evil and protect the weak, then we will have earned the right to make judgements, not before.
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I wonder how we would all feel were the situation reversed?
What if one of the peaceful demonstrations of the last few years in Britain had resulted in the British Army attacking the protesters? What if whole counties and cities were under daily attack from artillery and the Royal Air Force? What is out friends and families had their homes, their jobs, their lives, destroyed? What if we were starving, waiting each day for the bomb or sniper that kills us? What if millions of Britains had fled to Ireland and France where they were interned in makeshift camps? What if after all this a nerve agent was used on Birmingham or Glasgow or Leeds?
And Syria said to us... "Its nothing to do with us, we shouldn't be risking our own lives for you, you're all as bad as each other anyway." and did nothing to help. Do you think we'd thank them for that? Would we consider their decision 'understandable'? I doubt it.
But never mind eh? Please do continue to advance all the excuses for not becoming involved so everyone can keep a clear conscience and feel morally superior.
We are involved. Because we are all humans. We should be protecting the weak and standing up for those who cannot stand up for themselves. We should be doing this, if for no other reason, because it is what we would want others to do for us. Whatever the reasons, whatever the complex political or social background, it does not matter! There is one thing we need to remember, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. We are all responsible for what happens in Syria because we are all responsible for our own decisions. What happens after is a different question. Oppose evil and protect the weak, then we will have earned the right to make judgements, not before.
Sounds like a plan, what specifics do you want to see happen here?
Do you know which side actually released the toxins, and how would you go about sorting this out......?
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Sounds like a plan, what specifics do you want to see happen here?
Do you know which side actually released the toxins, and how would you go about sorting this out......?
My argument is simply against the excuses given for doing nothing. What should be done is a different discussion which no one here is qualified to be involved in... or if they are qualified they won't be able to make that known.
Deciding if the right thing to do is act or stand by has (IMO) nothing to do with what should be done or how it should be done or what the outcome is. I see it as a problem of morals. However, I fully accept that people will argue the exact opposite and base their opinions of what should be done on things like what can be achieved and risks and so forth. I respectfully disagree that this is the right approach.
Presumably these people would, when responding to an earlier question about a woman being raped, decide to continue quietly into the night and leave her to her fate as its too much of a risk to intervene, they are not equipped to do so and the outcome is uncertain. We all accept that is clearly wrong. I believe the same logic applies here, others may not.
I rambled. What I'm saying is you decide if you should act or not... then you decide what action you should take and how. Not the other way round.
The situation is obviously complex and there is no "solution" I could propose here or anyone else could propose that could not be knocked full of holes and risks in 5 minutes flat... and that includes the "solution" of staying out of it. In my opinion, pointing out that any and all solutions are difficult is not a valid argument for doing nothing, not least as doing nothing also has risks. I see it merely as a way of shutting down the proposals for action and achieving the default position of "talk but don't act" without that position being arrived at by a logical decision process.
So let me turn your question around. What specifics would you like to see and how will you achieve them? I don't think anyone proposing inaction has an easier time answering this than anyone proposing action.
Anyway if you want a specific how about a cruise missile landing in Mr Assad's lap? Not being privy to the security council's briefings I don't know if this is achievable or what outcome may result... but neither do we know what would happen if we do not do it since none of us here are privy to said breifings. Personally I'd preface this with a nuke or two on the Kremlin believing that its better to treat the cause rather than the symptoms, but that's a topic for a different discussion. :evil:
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Like you said its not black and white I'm assuming the right or maybe not right people or even more qualified people are doing something about it.
If you decided to send troops in or send missiles. One: its political suicide ( how are you going to explain more young soldiers dying once again) Two: collateral damage i.e more innocent deaths (bombing from afar)
My point is inaction or action can yield both negative and positives depends how you want history to remember you by?
I think from an internal stand point the people responsible will eventually come out when the case is built/investigated.
I say this without emotion because its all I can hope for. :undecided:
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Yes all anyone can really. :sad:
Not black and white refers to the results though rather than the decision (to my mind).
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some contry in the middel east has for the most part of recorded history been at war with another or itself.
problem is the longer you try and stop them fighting the more of them there are when it dose kick off.
also there is sientific proof the eath is overpopulated so i say leave them all to it and thin themselves out
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totally agree. no one ever wins a war. if you defeat the enemy then another 1 will appear. there is no long term solution to them conflicts caused by psychopaths over that way. why send troops out there like lambs to the slaughter when at the end off the day them people that are hell bent on destruction will carry on regardless. they have no fear. they are not scared of dying so nothing will put them off. would Syria help us??? who knows. maybe, maybe not. it is none off our business. we cant play god.
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Syria seemed to be pottering along quite nicely until Saudi Arabia and Qatar started showering dosh and arms on Sunni chavvy Rambo wannabees. If they had give the young chavs Mk7 GTI's instead of AK47s then peace and happiness would reign in Syria now.
Diplomacy involving the Saudis and Qataris would be more useful than bombs. Perhaps the chavs would prefer the new Mercedes A45 AMG, I know I would.
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The UN needs to step up and do more. The first point of their charter states:
To maintain international peace and security, and to that end: to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace;
ref: http://www.un.org/en/documents/charter/chapter1.shtml
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The UN is a waste of time and always has been. It has almost 100 years history of talking and taking no action and the various dictators etc of this world have well learnt this lesson. Things have hardly improved with China and Russia now throwing their weight around.
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Absolutely agree the UN is a waste of time in situations like this - except perhaps for helping to independently establish the "facts".
Personally I think we should wade in with a decent military response and clear the way for a more democratic, safe and stable Syria - provided that is what the majority of Syrians actually want.
Problem for me is the thought of another decade of buggering about like we've done before in the region.
What if after all this a nerve agent was used on Birmingham or Glasgow or Leeds?
Now there's an idea :laugh:
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Absolutely agree the UN is a waste of time in situations like this - except perhaps for helping to independently establish the "facts".
Personally I think we should wade in with a decent military response and clear the way for a more democratic, safe and stable Syria - provided that is what the majority of Syrians actually want.
Problem for me is the thought of another decade of buggering about like we've done before in the region.
What if after all this a nerve agent was used on Birmingham or Glasgow or Leeds?
Now there's an idea :laugh:
Safe and democratic....just like how we helped Libya?
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FFS We could be sitting pretty here..... :whistle:
We're out of it, and if they blast each other to sh!t we could be the only big players left :cool:
Restart the Empire :evil:
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Good old back stabbing labour party! giving Syria, and the other Mickey Mouse countries the green light to use indiscriminate chemical weapons... maybe just a little bit timid over making about another WMD scenario taking place... Oh hang on a minute! that was Tony Blair FFS
God help this country if it doesn't show conviction like Maggie did, and had the balls to sort out the Falklands!
This was not about putting troops on the ground, or oil, this was about putting some Cruise missiles though peoples letterboxes!
If it could be proved without doubt, that the Syrian Govt were to blame, then a decision should have been a no brainer
British, and American Intelligence services are amongst the best in the world, and should be trusted in situations like these... potentially thousands more innocent Syrians could now well die, in horrific circumstances due to this in my opinion, very poor decision!
Chemical attacks are the lowest of the low
Thom
While I agree using chemical weapons is disgusting, Israel used them against Palestinian civi's in 2008 - the US also directly used them in 2004, not long ago.
The US supplied them with the weapons and we're the US's biggest bum chums making us just as bad as them, we should have told them where to go stick their heads after that.
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/09/08/322755/10-chemical-weapons-attacks-washington-doesnt-want-you-to-talk-about/
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While I agree using chemical weapons is disgusting, Israel used them against Palestinian civi's in 2008 - the US also directly used them in 2004, not long ago.
The US supplied them with the weapons and we're the US's biggest bum chums making us just as bad as them, we should have told them where to go stick their heads after that.
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/09/08/322755/10-chemical-weapons-attacks-washington-doesnt-want-you-to-talk-about/
Erm.... no.
Firstly .ir is Iran. Does Iran have any bias towards Israel or the US? I'll let you figure that one out yourself.
Secondly, White Phosphorous is not the same as Sarin.
Thirdly, regarding this specific claims that Iran is making. Fallujah cannot be described as "civilian targets" can it? And the UN HQ in Gaza that Israel attacked was occupied by Hamas, not by civilians. The use of incendiary weapons against ruthless genocidal terrorists (whether you agree with the tactic or not) cannot be considered comparable to the use of Sarin gas against a civilian population by its own military for the purposes of intimidation and ethnic cleansing.
Lets not be under any illusions here about who the bad guys are.
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Putin's letter to Obama through the New York Times. One Nil to VVP :cool:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinion/putin-plea-for-caution-from-russia-on-syria.html?ref=opinion&_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinion/putin-plea-for-caution-from-russia-on-syria.html?ref=opinion&_r=0)
RECENT events surrounding Syria have prompted me to speak directly to the American people and their political leaders. It is important to do so at a time of insufficient communication between our societies.
Relations between us have passed through different stages. We stood against each other during the cold war. But we were also allies once, and defeated the Nazis together. The universal international organization — the United Nations — was then established to prevent such devastation from ever happening again.
The United Nations’ founders understood that decisions affecting war and peace should happen only by consensus, and with America’s consent the veto by Security Council permanent members was enshrined in the United Nations Charter. The profound wisdom of this has underpinned the stability of international relations for decades.
No one wants the United Nations to suffer the fate of the League of Nations, which collapsed because it lacked real leverage. This is possible if influential countries bypass the United Nations and take military action without Security Council authorization.
The potential strike by the United States against Syria, despite strong opposition from many countries and major political and religious leaders, including the pope, will result in more innocent victims and escalation, potentially spreading the conflict far beyond Syria’s borders. A strike would increase violence and unleash a new wave of terrorism. It could undermine multilateral efforts to resolve the Iranian nuclear problem and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and further destabilize the Middle East and North Africa. It could throw the entire system of international law and order out of balance.
Syria is not witnessing a battle for democracy, but an armed conflict between government and opposition in a multireligious country. There are few champions of democracy in Syria. But there are more than enough Qaeda fighters and extremists of all stripes battling the government. The United States State Department has designated Al Nusra Front and the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, fighting with the opposition, as terrorist organizations. This internal conflict, fueled by foreign weapons supplied to the opposition, is one of the bloodiest in the world.
Mercenaries from Arab countries fighting there, and hundreds of militants from Western countries and even Russia, are an issue of our deep concern. Might they not return to our countries with experience acquired in Syria? After all, after fighting in Libya, extremists moved on to Mali. This threatens us all.
From the outset, Russia has advocated peaceful dialogue enabling Syrians to develop a compromise plan for their own future. We are not protecting the Syrian government, but international law. We need to use the United Nations Security Council and believe that preserving law and order in today’s complex and turbulent world is one of the few ways to keep international relations from sliding into chaos. The law is still the law, and we must follow it whether we like it or not. Under current international law, force is permitted only in self-defense or by the decision of the Security Council. Anything else is unacceptable under the United Nations Charter and would constitute an act of aggression.
No one doubts that poison gas was used in Syria. But there is every reason to believe it was used not by the Syrian Army, but by opposition forces, to provoke intervention by their powerful foreign patrons, who would be siding with the fundamentalists. Reports that militants are preparing another attack — this time against Israel — cannot be ignored.
It is alarming that military intervention in internal conflicts in foreign countries has become commonplace for the United States. Is it in America’s long-term interest? I doubt it. Millions around the world increasingly see America not as a model of democracy but as relying solely on brute force, cobbling coalitions together under the slogan “you’re either with us or against us.”
But force has proved ineffective and pointless. Afghanistan is reeling, and no one can say what will happen after international forces withdraw. Libya is divided into tribes and clans. In Iraq the civil war continues, with dozens killed each day. In the United States, many draw an analogy between Iraq and Syria, and ask why their government would want to repeat recent mistakes.
No matter how targeted the strikes or how sophisticated the weapons, civilian casualties are inevitable, including the elderly and children, whom the strikes are meant to protect.
The world reacts by asking: if you cannot count on international law, then you must find other ways to ensure your security. Thus a growing number of countries seek to acquire weapons of mass destruction. This is logical: if you have the bomb, no one will touch you. We are left with talk of the need to strengthen nonproliferation, when in reality this is being eroded.
We must stop using the language of force and return to the path of civilized diplomatic and political settlement.
A new opportunity to avoid military action has emerged in the past few days. The United States, Russia and all members of the international community must take advantage of the Syrian government’s willingness to place its chemical arsenal under international control for subsequent destruction. Judging by the statements of President Obama, the United States sees this as an alternative to military action.
I welcome the president’s interest in continuing the dialogue with Russia on Syria. We must work together to keep this hope alive, as we agreed to at the Group of 8 meeting in Lough Erne in Northern Ireland in June, and steer the discussion back toward negotiations.
If we can avoid force against Syria, this will improve the atmosphere in international affairs and strengthen mutual trust. It will be our shared success and open the door to cooperation on other critical issues.
My working and personal relationship with President Obama is marked by growing trust. I appreciate this. I carefully studied his address to the nation on Tuesday. And I would rather disagree with a case he made on American exceptionalism, stating that the United States’ policy is “what makes America different. It’s what makes us exceptional.” It is extremely dangerous to encourage people to see themselves as exceptional, whatever the motivation. There are big countries and small countries, rich and poor, those with long democratic traditions and those still finding their way to democracy. Their policies differ, too. We are all different, but when we ask for the Lord’s blessings, we must not forget that God created us equal.
Vladimir V. Putin is the president of Russia.
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I'm not even gonna read his letter. He is a mafia boss and a murderer supporting a genocidal lunatic. I felt physically sick when his buddy pal Assad appeared on the news trying to look all calm and reasonable and statesman like earlier and had to turn the channel over. Both of these "men" have earned their place amongst the tyrants of history. :sick:
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I'm not even gonna read his letter. He is a mafia boss and a murderer supporting a genocidal lunatic. I felt physically sick when his buddy pal Assad appeared on the news trying to look all calm and reasonable and statesman like earlier and had to turn the channel over. Both of these "men" have earned their place amongst the tyrants of history. :sick:
Obama is head of America Inc. An organisation that has killed and continues to kill millions of people. And he wants to kill more :angry:
You read to much Western Propaganda :rolleyes:
Read the letter, Putin is right. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinion/putin-plea-for-caution-from-russia-on-syria.html?ref=opinion&_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinion/putin-plea-for-caution-from-russia-on-syria.html?ref=opinion&_r=0)
Putin :cool:
(http://rachelmarsden.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/putin.jpg)
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01762/putin-landscape_1762753c.jpg)
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/10/06/article-2213727-155D647A000005DC-310_634x494.jpg)
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I made no comment on Obama or America neither for or against, nor is America's reputation or actions a contributing factor in how I view Putin or Assad.
I read no "Western Propaganda", but thanks for rolling your internet eyes at me anyway. If you really do think Putin is cool then I pity you. The man is scum.
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I made no comment on Obama or America neither for or against, nor is America's reputation or actions a contributing factor in how I view Putin or Assad.
I read no "Western Propaganda", but thanks for rolling your internet eyes at me anyway. If you really do think Putin is cool then I pity you. The man is scum.
Very harsh on Coolio Putin!
Perhaps these pictures will make you change you mind :wink:
(http://i.imgur.com/XpbDT6T.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/xTtjHmH.jpg)
Come on the puppy pic has to win you over :rolleyes:
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01762/putin-landscape_1762753c.jpg)
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Come on the puppy pic has to win you over :rolleyes:
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01762/putin-landscape_1762753c.jpg)
Sorry but :laugh: :laugh:
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Ok fine. I will concede that the puppy pic is cool. :tongue:
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Ok fine. I will concede that the puppy pic is cool. :tongue:
Cool? That's his main course. :whistle:
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Ok fine. I will concede that the puppy pic is cool. :tongue:
Cool? That's his main course. :whistle:
:shocked:
.... OMG!
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Come on the puppy pic has to win you over :rolleyes:
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01762/putin-landscape_1762753c.jpg)
Sorry but :laugh: :laugh:
Ok fine. I will concede that the puppy pic is cool. :tongue:
Now look at this picture of Obama and then tell me who the bad guy is:
(http://i.imgur.com/mz57f6c.jpg)
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Ok fine. I will concede that the puppy pic is cool. :tongue:
Now look at this picture of Obama and then tell me who the bad guy is:
(http://i.imgur.com/mz57f6c.jpg)
Post of the week so far, but I have had a couple of jars :laugh:
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Nearly spat out my tea :laugh:
Middle earth is laughing at us all! :nerd:
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propaganda is so easy to put out there, putin with dog pic is so fake but Obama with dog looks genuine.
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Here's the historical background for what's going on in Syria, all in 5mins.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exrqMPJ1Bts&feature=share&list=UUGaVdbSav8xWuFWTadK6loA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exrqMPJ1Bts&feature=share&list=UUGaVdbSav8xWuFWTadK6loA)
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propaganda is so easy to put out there, putin with dog pic is so fake but Obama with dog looks genuine.
Are these yours? :laugh:
(http://i.imgur.com/zO0AavF.jpg)
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Here's the historical background for what's going on in Syria, all in 5mins.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exrqMPJ1Bts&feature=share&list=UUGaVdbSav8xWuFWTadK6loA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exrqMPJ1Bts&feature=share&list=UUGaVdbSav8xWuFWTadK6loA)
Seemed nice chap very informed :cool: Did like the bit from 2:16 when he compares it to Star Wars, :cool:
"There are tons of rebel groups and they all want different things, some like each other some don't, some like Al-Qaeda some like democracy. This isn't Star Wars, there is no Rebel Alliance its messy & muddy and to make things worse if we are talking about Star Wars here, al-Assad has basically killed, Luke Skywalker and Han Solo and Leia blown up Alderaan and Arbra has gone too".
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Yes chemical weapons are wrong but as said in previous replys it's not our business to get involved we are a tiny island who have already have stuck our noses into too many countries internal affairs. No one in Syria will thank us for getting involved or want us involved.
It's going to boil down to Russia & America whats happens now anyway so why do we need to even get involved Britain needs to stop thinking its a world power and accept we are just a little island & little island that is in debt up to our eye balls !