GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk4 => Topic started by: Prawny on 20 August 2013, 16:23
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Afternoon chaps!
I thought I'd share this with you, now that it's nearing completion, this is something I'm testing in conjunction with with Beachbuggy Turbos and Parsons performance.
We all know that the TFSI lot got pretty lucky with the k04 turbo fitted to the Golf Ed30, leon Cupra, and 8P S3, for a factory turbo it seems to produce amazing results, 360+ bhp, and seems to be pretty reliable at those outputs too, so it was certainly something which has interested the 1.8T crew for a long while.
I'd already stolen the compressor from an 8P S3 for my k04-023 hybrid, which produced 353bhp / 345lbft on my 1.8T engine in my A3, looking like this:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/E31F7F47-C242-40B2-B613-5A639044B82B-11640-00000CD9FB8C92C2_zps305bc8ac.jpg) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/E31F7F47-C242-40B2-B613-5A639044B82B-11640-00000CD9FB8C92C2_zps305bc8ac.jpg.html")
But now, thanks to Dan at Beachbuggy Turbos having a crazy idea, we've gone one step further with a kit he is developing, and stolen the whole turbo from an 8P!
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zps5280acf1.jpg) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zps5280acf1.jpg.html")
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zps284567d5.jpg) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zps284567d5.jpg.html")
Bulkhead clearance was a little tight, but aside from that, it fitted great:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zps5853b405.jpg) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zps5853b405.jpg.html")
We also robbed a TFSI charge pipe:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zps7f3c0cc2.jpg) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zps7f3c0cc2.jpg.html")
And added a 1 bar actuator for good measure:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zps2cfd41bd.jpg) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zps2cfd41bd.jpg.html")
It's all back in now and almost finished:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zps0ff2d4db.jpg) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zps0ff2d4db.jpg.html")
just a few pipes to finish, and the downpipe.
The engine is a high flow large port 1.8T, with NA cams, forged rods, 3'' turbo back, massive IC, WMI, all the toys.
All thoughts and opinions welcomed :)
Cheers for reading
Prawn
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Shiney new DV from Forge plumbed into it's new home:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zps71fd49f4.jpg) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zps71fd49f4.jpg.html")
Charge pipework all welded up, painted, and fitted:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zps70510b30.jpg) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zps70510b30.jpg.html")
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zps33830f75.jpg) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zps33830f75.jpg.html")
With the bracket by the crank pulley, the main cross member is actually really solidly mounted. We were going to brace is, but somewhere it needs to flex for engine movement, and across the length of pipe made the most sense, as the angular change when it flexes will be the least. Long term I will replace the straight coupler with a bellow I think.
We wern't happy with the oil drain we had made either. With the weight on the wheels, the drain sat just 5mm from the driveshaft. Under compression it would hit.
We tried changing the length of the hose, but it just kinked, so intead we took 2 ko3 oil drains, and did a cut and shut to come up with one decent drain, using solid fittings at either end and an unmodified audi flexi section in the middle. This should be much more reliable.
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zps1c4b43c3.jpg) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zps1c4b43c3.jpg.html")
Catch can back in, just needs a few lengths of pipe to plumb it all up, and that's the bay finished!
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zps0ff2d4db.jpg) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zps0ff2d4db.jpg.html")
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More stuff happened.
90 degree pipe offered in and pointed to roughly where we wanted it:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zpsb1db1fa2.jpg) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zpsb1db1fa2.jpg.html")
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zpsa8e63dbd.jpg) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zpsa8e63dbd.jpg.html")
A remarkable amount of room for this, the only thing reasonably close is the gear shift cables, but the DP will be heat wrapped, as will the shift cables.
Flexi on next:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zpsbf30d3ce.jpg) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zpsbf30d3ce.jpg.html")
Followed by a 45 degree to bring it into the tunnel:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zpsf42ec7aa.jpg) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zpsf42ec7aa.jpg.html")
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zps1cf7a2f4.jpg) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zps1cf7a2f4.jpg.html")
And that's all there was too it! Made easy thanks to Ben!
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zps38f5bc4c.jpg) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zps38f5bc4c.jpg.html")
All marked up for bosses, EGT, Narrowband 02, WB02 all to be welded in:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zpsd9f3e659.jpg) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zpsd9f3e659.jpg.html")
Downpipe welded up:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zps0d6e0048.jpg)
And wrapped:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zps67477f75.jpg)
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zps13533966.jpg)
and fitted:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zps513aa25a.jpg)
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A picture of the car it's fitted to, just for good measure:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zps1b94b3c8.jpg)
First test on low boost, 14psi, no meth active here, still on the map from the old hybrid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxgCYF-ScJs
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Little mess about at Curborough in the wet last week, putting miles on the new setup:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrJTlLiqkg8&feature=youtu.be
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then the big bit that everyone wants to know.....
To the dyno!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_GaW_WFGd8
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Some of you may recognise this place:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zpsa55203ec.jpg) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zpsa55203ec.jpg.html")
And this friendly looking gentleman:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zpsc29a8b5b.jpg) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zpsc29a8b5b.jpg.html")
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zps47479886.jpg) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zps47479886.jpg.html")
Just a quick check to see that it's fuelling safe and I'm OK to continue driving it before it's mapped. This is still on the old hybrid map, and due to Bills excellent dyno software we were able to make overlays and compare new and old setups.
So, the results.....
Red line is the old ko4 hybrid, blue line is the new TFSI unit, both on actuato pressure at 1bar:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/TFSIvshybridactuator_zps61bb15e0.png~original) (http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/TFSIvshybridactuator_zps61bb15e0.png.html)
Spool is a tiny bit later on the dyno, but on the road it makes 15psi before 3k, aside from that, on the same actuator pressure they're incredibly similar!
Midrange torque is ever so slightly up on the new setup, whether that's because it's slighly leaner or not I don't know.
Happy that it was running fairly well and things were as expected, we turned the N75 on!
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/TFSIvshybridboost_zpse9f67be3.png~original) (http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/TFSIvshybridboost_zpse9f67be3.png.html)
^^^The old full boost map here was from before the last map on the new engine, so previous max power had been 307bhp at Bills. it's a great comparison of spool up though, again roughly 4-500rpm later.
And the plots from Sundays results:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/TFSI-B5_zps541d11b3.png~original) (http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/TFSI-B5_zps541d11b3.png.html)
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/TFSI-HILow_zpsbf3b36e6.png~original) (http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/TFSI-HILow_zpsbf3b36e6.png.html)
348bhp and 283lbft, or in comparable terms elsewhere, 328lbft (given Bills calc of 16% lower reading on his)
Considering it's made this from just 18psi at the top end, and it made peak power AT the rev limiter, I think we're doing pretty well here on the old map!
EGT peak on the dyno on full boost was just 734 degrees, so promisingly low, and timing pull was absolutely zero across the board after a few tiny cf's on spool up.
All in all, a bloody good result! Roll on mapping on September 5th!
Massive thanks to Bill and Tuffty as always for fitting me into their incredibly busy schedule! you guys are awesome
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On the dyno, boost on:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7IPe5EDW_k&feature=c4-overview&list=UUivWBehnHJtLnkLw5klNhPw
And with no N75, 1 bar-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xl9h9K4LIQY&list=UUivWBehnHJtLnkLw5klNhPw
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and finally, a little in car clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNJ4btN2o3E
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thats just mad really :cool:
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looks awesome mate, wondered where you'd disappeared to :wink:
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I'm always here man :whistle:
Lurking!
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A total game changer.
Keep up the good work :afro:
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That's the plan Scarr, we're making 348bhp from just 18psi at the moment, with very little heat, fantastic spool, and it drives like a factory car, because it IS a factory stock turbo.
A kit is currently being developed and thoroughly tested, and once it's all finalised and tweaked, it'll be put into production and sold as an alternative to the current line of ko4-023 hybrids.
For those wanting slightly less ambitious power, the kit will also allow fitment of a tfsi ko3 turbo, which should see power around 280-300bhp when mapped to suit, and would also allow a direct swap out to the 350+ capable ko4 at a later date!
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And then will be a case of making a tfsi k04 hybrid :rolleyes: :grin:
Looking forward to the 5th dude :cool:
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Forged internals will be flying off the shelf...Or will they :rolleyes: :lipsrsealed:
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And then will be a case of making a tfsi k04 hybrid :rolleyes: :grin:
I'm sure you already know, but for those who don't the hybrid is already made and will also be tested at some point!
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Ttrs compressor is it not? :evil:
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nooooooooooooooo. It's been made with a totally custom set of wheels, massive billet compressor wheel and a custom flat backed turbine wheel I believe.
Fingers crossed it'll see upwards of 400bhp.
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Ooooo I didn't know this!
Is the a write up anywhere?
Gonna be an exciting 6 months or so!
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Eeeee!! Love this! Such a shame I didn't get taken out in it when I had the chance the other week!! And looks like I won't get a chance now!
I love the amount of effort you, bill Ben and niki are putting in to this!!
Looking forward to the figures once it's all mapped!!
Toby
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would this tfsi conversion be overkill for some one looking for 300-330 bhp?
Considering this for my LCR but don't really want more than that.
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Depends how you were planning on getting to 300-330 really mate :)
The plan is that the whole setup complete shouldn't cost more than a conventional ko4 hybrid build, and will certainly cost less than any big turbo option.
it should be more reliable than a hybrid too, and give the same power for less boost and heat, with headroom for more if you so wish in the future :)
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Do you want 330 bhp but be on the limits of your setup or do you want a comfortable and safe 330bhp??
It's definitely better to to have the headroom as prawn as said as things will be more reliable.
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I was just wondering weather it would be better to go down the tfsi route than say one of Dans K04 Hybrids.
Do you know how much its going to roughly cost as a conversion?
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I don't yet no, but Dan is the man behind all this as well. i believe he has developed this as part of the never ending search for a bolt on, safe and reliable 350bhp option.
K04 hybrids can be great, mine was incredible and made some silly figures, but in truth, it'll always be a waiting game of what's going to crack first, the relentless manifold required to make the figures, the exhaust housing....
Something is always 'about' to break with a ko4 hybrid, hence the quest for more, for less, so to speak!
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I was just wondering weather it would be better to go down the tfsi route than say one of Dans K04 Hybrids.
Do you know how much its going to roughly cost as a conversion?
This question must have been asked about 50 times in the last few days :laugh:
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A big thumbs up Nick! If this is well priced it'll be the route I go down. Will the kit be for sale to use with a standard TFSI K04 or only the hybrid? :smiley:
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they will be identical Paul! Chances are it'll be sold as a kit to fit a turbo of your own source / choice. The hybrid, like all hybrids will be 100% OE fitment, so you could fit whichever you chose to :)
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On the dyno at R-tech tomorrow, lets see what it can do :evil:
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On the dyno at R-tech tomorrow, lets see what it can do :evil:
i need this kind of power in my golf :cry: goodluck for tomorrow :wink:
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what power did it make then :undecided:
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Come on..spill the beans :P
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Very impressed with the results! :grin:
He has probably forgot about this thread with all that's been happening but if you go to his thread on asn following the link in his sig the last few pages are a good read! :cool:
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So, now that I've finally got a minute after a mad day at work, I can take the time to write about our day :)
It was long!
I set off just after 6am, and went to pick Jardo up.
Last time I took Jardo somewhere, he turned up looking like a Polish car wash attendant rocking this dodgy double denim number:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1149107_1406860102862500_1244038023_o.jpg)
This time, I planned ahead, and specically asked him not to look like a twit for the trip, so he put on his best Christmas jumper and chinos instead....
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zps13a5ac56.jpg~original) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zps13a5ac56.jpg.html")
I can cope, it was a nice morning, even if we do get some funny looks cruising along with the Big Gay Wing:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zps0f8fde9e.jpg~original) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zps0f8fde9e.jpg.html")
We arrived at Rtech just before 9 and were greeted by Marcus moving cars about, Ben arrived a few minutes later, and we got the car onto the ramp:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zps52f54bbd.jpg~original) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zps52f54bbd.jpg.html")
Mr G arrived and we removed the front bumper, ready to roll onto the dyno. I also removed the scuttle panel and wipers to allow Niki to connect the ECU emulator:
The straps were tightened, and the fans wheeled into place:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zps62ace52e.jpg~original) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zps62ace52e.jpg.html")
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zps712953da.jpg~original) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zps712953da.jpg.html")
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zps958b6683.jpg~original) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zps958b6683.jpg.html")
The very first run, on actuator pressure, as arrived:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zpsff9edd57.jpg~original) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zpsff9edd57.jpg.html")
298bhp / 280lbft, a good start.
A few more runs, and it seemed to settle around 295-296 on actuator. Niki then ran it on N75 power, to see what it was doing on boost:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zps31bc39e0.jpg~original) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zps31bc39e0.jpg.html")
342bhp and 334lbft on the old map.
Next, Niki set about tweaking the fuelling. It was clear on the actuator pressure run that the richness top end was robbing it of lots of power.
A few tweaks later saw 321bhp on actuator pressure, with the sme 280lbft as before:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zps8c9bf36b.jpg~original) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zps8c9bf36b.jpg.html")
Going well so far then!
Fast forward a few more runs, and Niki started to add some boost:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zpsf25b7d15.jpg~original) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zpsf25b7d15.jpg.html")
370bhp / 350lbft ish
It made some flames:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zps090edc71.jpg~original) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zps090edc71.jpg.html")
And JoJo turned up in the worlds tidiest early S3:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zps6cebcb64.jpg~original) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zps6cebcb64.jpg.html")
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d108/Lisajojo/8A3D4CD3-1610-474F-85AB-458D83005BA9-7879-00000652309C0457_zps4c2af2e8.jpg)
Jo is a hero, Jo bought us lunch, it was a pretty epic feast! Thanks so much for that!
Vex182 also popped over in his lunch break, great to meet you Dan :) Sorry we didn't get any pics of your presence :laugh:
Playing around with boost levels, this one shows the spool nicely, that's 1.5 bar reached at 3300rpm. On the road it reaches this even sooner, by 3000rpm
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zps7cddda7e.jpg~original) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zps7cddda7e.jpg.html")
A few other runs, trying different things each run:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zpsf84e7a6a.jpg~original) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zpsf84e7a6a.jpg.html")
Then it made more flames:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zps885ab4f8.jpg~original) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zps885ab4f8.jpg.html")
Niki did one run asking it for LOTS of boost, resulting in 1.8 bar peak and 1.7 bar still at 7000rpm, and it did it too, result was 381bhp and 371lbft, but for the gain of 10bhp / 15lbft, we were having to push another 0.3 bar, so it just wasn't worth it.
Final result after all the fiddling:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/2013/null_zpsbd119e42.jpg~original) (http://"http://s1218.photobucket.com/user/prawn16/media/2013/null_zpsbd119e42.jpg.html")
378bhp 352lbft. It's worth noting that that run was done in inertia mode after all of the mapping and tweaking being done against the brake. Niki said he always does a run in interia at the end of a session as that's how it's done on most rolling road days.
Typical power repeatably run after run seemed to be anywhere from 368-374bhp, as you can see from the graph this is dyno run 70 from the day! so it had a fair old bit of testing!
On the road, this, is REEEEEEAAAAALLLLYYYY GOOD!!!!
The map is fairly aggressive, with strong boost the whole way through the range, but Nikis still held it well back from it's earlier 370lbft state where it would have been a true animal I'm sure.
He's also done something very interesting with the throttle mapping, which I'm really liking so far, the first 50-60% of the throttle do not request any N75 duty at all, so up to 50% throttle the car runs at 1 bar and just pulls really nicely and smoothly.
it's only when you go beyond 60% throttle right up to 100% that it starts making any additional boost request and the full force is unleashed, it seems to work really well existing bends, where you want to be feeding the power in gently so as not to upset the balance, then when you know it'll take it you can press that last 20% and it really, REALLY takes off.
3rd gear is now absolutely savage, and even 4th and 5th still pull hard from anything above 3k rpm. the Rev limit is now at 7600rpm too, although it still finds it too fast in 2nd and 3rd!
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wish i got a crimbo jumper like that :grin: :grin: oh an that power in the mk2 awesome results mate after all your hard work you clearly have put in :wink: