GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk7 => Topic started by: Movi on 08 July 2013, 19:18
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Interesting :cool: especially the RD if true - Only time will tell
http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autozeitung.de%2Fauto-neuheiten%2F2014-vw-golf-r-7-rd-iaa-2013-allrad-turbo-vierzylinder-300-ps-gn-401341
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Well lets wait and see, I would still only go for the GTI or R though no question.
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When are we expecting the launch of the R?
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IAA is September. I wonder if that when the up gt will launch too....
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I will not be happy if they serve up an RD :angry:
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Be interesting if they did release it, performance will likely be on a par with the GTI.
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Be interesting if they did release it, performance will likely be on a par with the GTI.
I don't believe VW would do that. Have a diesel golf quicker than the GTI no :shocked:
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Depends on how they priced it I guess. If an RD had GTI or even GTI-beating performance, but came at a huge premium, it may not compete. It certainly wouldn't bother me if they launched it. If I wanted an R or whatever, I'd have waited!
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Be interesting if they did release it, performance will likely be on a par with the GTI.
I don't believe VW would do that. Have a diesel golf quicker than the GTI no :shocked:
Yeh it was mentioned before in the mk7 forum and I'm not certain due to the GTI market...
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There won't be a diesel R that's quicker than a GTI - anyone thinking there will needs the soot cleaning out from between their ears! :laugh:
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"A little more patience must find the driver of the upcoming VW Golf RD, but the first diesel-R has it still lurks behind the ears."
Hard to disagree with that.
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Why not a 225PS Diesel to sit above the GTI and GTD? It would be an "R" - not competing with the GTI at all. Be interesting to see what they could do about the price though considering how well specced the GTD already is. The extra turbo is realistically only worth an extra £800-1000, maybe add the e-diff and bigger brakes of the performance pack for another £700 and extra special seats adding £500 to £1000 depending on whether they're like MK6 GTI seats or full blown recaros to make a £2000-2800 premium over the GTD? Not forgetting possible 19" wheels as standard.
The pictures of that R don't look as good as the GTI IMO. Would I pay an extra £3k over a GTD for an RD? Nope, i'd get a GTI if the difference was that much and the combined mpg dropped to 55mpg. I'd pay an extra grand over the GTD purely for the perfromance hike, not wanting all the superfluous extras, but i'm doubting VW will make it that easy to own one.
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Why not a 225PS Diesel to sit above the GTI and GTD? It would be an "R" - not competing with the GTI at all. Be interesting to see what they could do about the price though considering how well specced the GTD already is. The extra turbo is realistically only worth an extra £800-1000, maybe add the e-diff and bigger brakes of the performance pack for another £700 and extra special seats adding £500 to £1000 depending on whether they're like MK6 GTI seats or full blown recaros to make a £2000-2800 premium over the GTD? Not forgetting possible 19" wheels as standard.
The pictures of that R don't look as good as the GTI IMO. Would I pay an extra £3k over a GTD for an RD? Nope, i'd get a GTI if the difference was that much and the combined mpg dropped to 55mpg. I'd pay an extra grand over the GTD purely for the perfromance hike, not wanting all the superfluous extras, but i'm doubting VW will make it that easy to own one.
Oh... a 5 door one, perhaps they are not making a 3 door :tongue:
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Be interesting if they did release it, performance will likely be on a par with the GTI.
I don't believe VW would do that. Have a diesel golf quicker than the GTI no :shocked:
I think they would. GTI is not the holy grail of VW performance and hasn't been for a long time. They will do whatever makes them money and they've been on the backfoot with biturbo diesel for a long time, with Vauxhall and BMW both offering one. You've got to be a hard core VW fan to pay out for an R Golf or Scirocco, the price puts it on the edge of a whole new set of competitors and their residuals are usually worse than the GTI by a long way - Scirocco R is a prime example. Anyone selling one of those on the used market will only see around £1500 more than a 2.0TSI GT even though it cost £5k more.
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Why not a 225PS Diesel to sit above the GTI and GTD? It would be an "R" - not competing with the GTI at all. Be interesting to see what they could do about the price though considering how well specced the GTD already is. The extra turbo is realistically only worth an extra £800-1000, maybe add the e-diff and bigger brakes of the performance pack for another £700 and extra special seats adding £500 to £1000 depending on whether they're like MK6 GTI seats or full blown recaros to make a £2000-2800 premium over the GTD? Not forgetting possible 19" wheels as standard.
The pictures of that R don't look as good as the GTI IMO. Would I pay an extra £3k over a GTD for an RD? Nope, i'd get a GTI if the difference was that much and the combined mpg dropped to 55mpg. I'd pay an extra grand over the GTD purely for the perfromance hike, not wanting all the superfluous extras, but i'm doubting VW will make it that easy to own one.
Dont forget the addition of 4wd.
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This is all pure speculation, but great fun. Got me all excited just thinking about it :grin:
Now then how about a Golf R-TDI, 250PS, 500 Nm, 4Motion, Bi-Turbo with eLSD :evil:
Would you buy one?
Trouble is I don't think VW could price it right - but it would make one hell of a tour de force!
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Bi-turbo Golf RD is entirely feasible. Just take a look at the Audi SQ5 - yep that's a diesel.
http://vimeo.com/45898885 (http://vimeo.com/45898885)
and acceleration http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYqjvFF0Vy8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYqjvFF0Vy8)
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Bi-turbo Golf RD is entirely feasible. Just take a look at the Audi SQ5 - yep that's a diesel.
http://vimeo.com/45898885 (http://vimeo.com/45898885)
and acceleration http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYqjvFF0Vy8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYqjvFF0Vy8)
The A6 already has access to a Bi-turbo diesel, albeit the 3.0 unit (313bhp) - shouldn't be too hard to imagine a 2.0TDI unit
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Wouldnt get me buying an R D - ever !
Whatever way you cut it diesel engines dont deliver the same fun or rev range as petrol... In the same way that going for a GTD delivers a different drive to a GTi, an RD I guess would be the same..
Yes they have tons of torque, but so does the new GTi - normally performance diesels have a ton more torque than a petrol engine but that gap seems to be closing.
If I wanted a higher performance drive than a GTi I would buy a Golf R or and Audi S3 or BMW M1 or something similar. Unless I need the economy, diesel just doesn't cut it for me, I like the combination of decent low rev torque (which all modern petrol turbo engines have) and top end power / noise.
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Wouldnt get me buying an R D - ever !
Whatever way you cut it diesel engines dont deliver the same fun or rev range as petrol... In the same way that going for a GTD delivers a different drive to a GTi, an RD I guess would be the same..
Yes they have tons of torque, but so does the new GTi - normally performance diesels have a ton more torque than a petrol engine but that gap seems to be closing.
If I wanted a higher performance drive than a GTi I would buy a Golf R or and Audi S3 or BMW M1 or something similar. Unless I need the economy, diesel just doesn't cut it for me, I like the combination of decent low rev torque (which all modern petrol turbo engines have) and top end power / noise.
Pretty much sums up exactly why I've gone for GTI over GTD or any other potential future derivative. Besides the drive, I also love the way it looks.
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Likewise...
petrol engines are becoming so efficient and do everything so well, throw in the fact diesel is more expensive and you need to do a lot of miles to justify it..
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that used to be the case but not any more. GTD costs less than the GTI and even doing 5000 miles a year its still cheaper to run. 5-6p a litre more is more than outweighed by the possible 20mpg difference.
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Any torque advantage the Diesel has at the flywheel is somewhat cancelled out by the petrol's ability to rev longer.
Remember its torque at the wheels that counts.
HP = Torque x RPM ÷ 5252
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that used to be the case but not any more. GTD costs less than the GTI and even doing 5000 miles a year its still cheaper to run. 5-6p a litre more is more than outweighed by the possible 20mpg difference.
He didn't say that diesel cars cost more than petrol cars, just the fuel itself, and he's right, when you are at this level of spend on a car, if the difference between affordability comes down to needing diesel... This old horse can get beaten to death though, we all have our reasons for getting what we have and justifying it.
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just check the 0-60 or 0-100 times on GTi v GTD or any petrol v diesel like for like. Tells you all you need to know really. Yes, in gear accel of sporty diesels is impressive but the short rev range drives me mad.. What i love about petrol turbo is the best of both, real low end grunt that gradually gives way to top end power.
Would anyone buy a GTD for ONLY the way it drives, if fuel cost / economy was of no consideration ? Unlikely I think, mainly because most cars are going down the route of lower capacity turbo engine v 6 cyl larger ones a few years ago, which brings the benefit of flat torque curve from low revs (think the GTi develops max torque at 1500 to 4000 rpm or so) so the once true argument that a turbo D gives in gear flexibility that petrol doesn't .. is no longer really true..
Put you foot down in 4th in the Gti (or any decent turbo petrol) at 1500 revs and its all the acceleration you need.
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I'm sure that all things being equal, if the only difference between petrol and diesel was the way it drove, I'm sure a much lower percentage of people would go for it. It's all about the fuel economy really, and like lots of things, it means more to some people than others.
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I'd of gone for the GTi but the running costs of the GTD are a massive bonus. Similar (albeit nit as good) performance, same looks but £20 a year road tax and 60mpg is the big big draw factor.
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Did this start off as Golf R related?!? :grin:
Turning into another GTI vs GTD thread!
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Did this start off as Golf R related?!? :grin:
Turning into another GTI vs GTD thread!
All threads eventually turn into GTI vs GTD, heh heh
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I'd of gone for the GTi but the running costs of the GTD are a massive bonus. Similar (albeit nit as good) performance, same looks but £20 a year road tax and 60mpg is the big big draw factor.
Similar looks... ;)
You're right Bear, GTI v GTD is always going to be inevitable! :grin:
Bringing it somewhat back on track, I honestly think that if they priced it out of the mainstream, a performance diesel R that had wicked performance and great economy, I'd welcome it. Not that I'd buy it, but things are going to go that way.
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I'd of gone for the GTi but the running costs of the GTD are a massive bonus. Similar (albeit nit as good) performance, same looks but £20 a year road tax and 60mpg is the big big draw factor.
Similar looks not the same. The purity of the GTI is in the detail.
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Like many I weighed up the GTI/GTD.
No doubt the GTD will be cheaper to run, but even doing 15-20k miles per year I've still gone for the GTI, accepting I'm paying for the 'feel' of the GTI more than any real world performance gain.
For me it was about the ability of the car to make me grin (not saying the GTD won't - just not as much!), the wide power band, and the red themed interior which makes the GTI feel that little bit sporty & special inside.
On the subject or a Golf RD - I can't see it, surely easier to introduce a GTD PP first?
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I'd of gone for the GTi but the running costs of the GTD are a massive bonus. Similar (albeit nit as good) performance, same looks but £20 a year road tax and 60mpg is the big big draw factor.
Similar looks not the same. The purity of the GTI is in the detail.
Its exactly the same car apart from a stupid red line at the front and worse looking alloys!!!
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I'd of gone for the GTi but the running costs of the GTD are a massive bonus. Similar (albeit nit as good) performance, same looks but £20 a year road tax and 60mpg is the big big draw factor.
Similar looks not the same. The purity of the GTI is in the detail.
Its exactly the same car apart from a stupid red line at the front and worse looking alloys!!!
:shocked: :shocked:
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I'd of gone for the GTi but the running costs of the GTD are a massive bonus. Similar (albeit nit as good) performance, same looks but £20 a year road tax and 60mpg is the big big draw factor.
Similar looks not the same. The purity of the GTI is in the detail.
Its exactly the same car apart from a stupid red line at the front and worse looking alloys!!!
Exactly the same car yet the GTI is a lot quicker. Yep, you're right. :smiley:
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Its exactly the same car apart from a stupid red line at the front and worse looking alloys!!!
... is quite possibly one of the least thought out posts I've read on here since joining! :grin:
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Guys, he is specifically talking ONLY about the looks, and he is right. They are the same apart from the colour of the line, the alloys (and the exhaust). :wink:
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Guys, he is specifically talking ONLY about the looks, and he is right. They are the same apart from the colour of the line, the alloys (and the exhaust). :wink:
......and the red brake callipers and better looking interior :evil:
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Guys, he is specifically talking ONLY about the looks, and he is right. They are the same apart from the colour of the line, the alloys (and the exhaust). :wink:
... and the badges on the wings, the model badge itself, the rear diffuser, the red brake calipers, and the red-themed interior! So not really exactly the same car at all!
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Guys, he is specifically talking ONLY about the looks, and he is right. They are the same apart from the colour of the line, the alloys (and the exhaust). :wink:
......and the red brake callipers and better looking interior :evil:
Oh yes, forgot the callipers!
So not really exactly the same car at all!
It really depends how you're looking at this. If you compare the GTI and the GTD to each other and look for each small difference you'd say this yes. But a fairer way of looking at it is to compare the GTI to the standard Golf, then the GTD to the standard Gold and think about how those two comparisons might be different, in which case the GTI and GTD look very similar! Why is this fairer? Because when you see a GTI on the road you don't line it up with a GTD and say "wow the GTI looks better" you line it up with a standard Golf and say "wow the GTI looks better".
So I really think you can't say they are that different. Case in point, I passed two mk6 GTDs in the last hour in Cambridge (anyone driving a black one or a blue one?) and as they might have switched alloys I didn't know for sure they were GTDs not GTIs until I got pretty close. Was clear from a mile off they were not normal Golfs though.
All that said we're talking about looks and this excludes the much more important performance so... limited value in the comparison...
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My Dad (Red) id better than your Dad (Grey/Silver) :laugh:
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Guys, he is specifically talking ONLY about the looks, and he is right. They are the same apart from the colour of the line, the alloys (and the exhaust). :wink:
... and the badges on the wings, the model badge itself, the rear diffuser, the red brake calipers, and the red-themed interior! So not really exactly the same car at all!
:wink:
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Guys, he is specifically talking ONLY about the looks, and he is right. They are the same apart from the colour of the line, the alloys (and the exhaust). :wink:
......and the red brake callipers and better looking interior :evil:
Oh yes, forgot the callipers!
So not really exactly the same car at all!
It really depends how you're looking at this. If you compare the GTI and the GTD to each other and look for each small difference you'd say this yes. But a fairer way of looking at it is to compare the GTI to the standard Golf, then the GTD to the standard Gold and think about how those two comparisons might be different, in which case the GTI and GTD look very similar! Why is this fairer? Because when you see a GTI on the road you don't line it up with a GTD and say "wow the GTI looks better" you line it up with a standard Golf and say "wow the GTI looks better".
So I really think you can't say they are that different. Case in point, I passed two mk6 GTDs in the last hour in Cambridge (anyone driving a black one or a blue one?) and as they might have switched alloys I didn't know for sure they were GTDs not GTIs until I got pretty close. Was clear from a mile off they were not normal Golfs though.
All that said we're talking about looks and this excludes the much more important performance so... limited value in the comparison...
What we are saying is that they are not the SAME as quoted by mcmaddy, I'm sure he can speak for himself anyway :whistle: plus I'm sure he was joking, no one is that delusional :laugh:
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What we are saying is that they are not the SAME as quoted by mcmaddy, I'm sure he can speak for himself anyway :whistle: plus I'm sure he was joking, no one is that delusional :laugh:
:rolleyes: No thats not what he said. He said they look the same apart from some minor details. I agree with his assessment because in the real world example I gave above when I spotted the GTDs in the distance I could tell they were not standard Golfs but until I was within about 25m I could not say if they were GTIs or GTDs. Ergo the external appearance of the cars is not all that different!
Alloys can be changed and the colour of things like the stripe is practically irrelevant because by that logic a red GTI "looks" different to a black GTI. So really the only give-away is the exhaust.
... This is totally off topic.
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What we are saying is that they are not the SAME as quoted by mcmaddy, I'm sure he can speak for himself anyway :whistle: plus I'm sure he was joking, no one is that delusional :laugh:
:rolleyes: No thats not what he said. He said they look the same apart from some minor details. I agree with his assessment because in the real world example I gave above when I spotted the GTDs in the distance I could tell they were not standard Golfs but until I was within about 25m I could not say if they were GTIs or GTDs. Ergo the external appearance of the cars is not all that different!
Alloys can be changed and the colour of things like the stripe is practically irrelevant because by that logic a red GTI "looks" different to a black GTI. So really the only give-away is the exhaust.
... This is totally off topic.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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:huh:
Anyway, I'm keen to see how they style the R, and also to see one in the lovely blue! :grin:
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I'd of gone for the GTi but the running costs of the GTD are a massive bonus. Similar (albeit nit as good) performance, same looks but £20 a year road tax and 60mpg is the big big draw factor.
Similar looks not the same. The purity of the GTI is in the detail.
Its exactly the same car apart from a stupid red line at the front and worse looking alloys!!!
Bear read the above :rolleyes: two points mentioned red line and alloys........as has been pointed out by other posters there are a number of other details which are very different.
Stop straying off topic bear this is about the golf R / RD :laugh: :rolleyes:
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:rolleyes: No thats not what he said. He said they look the same apart from some minor details.
Sorry, but wanting to kinda' lay this one to rest, that is NOT what he said at all:
Its exactly the same car apart from a stupid red line at the front and worse looking alloys!!!
We can all read into what he may or may not have been thinking at the time, but they are two very different statements.
Aaaaanyway, I too am keen to see how they style the R, because in past iterations, I've preferred the styling of the GTI over the R.
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Anyway, I'm keen to see how they style the R, and also to see one in the lovely blue! :grin:
Me too. That blue that they showcased at the Paris (I think) motor show on the GTI is stunning - if it had been available as a colour pick in the UK I would have gone for it (although in Germany I think its just over £2K Euros :shocked:)
Also, I'm very interested in the styling of the R. The mk 6 was awful - looked like a normal Golf - whereas the R32 mk 5 and 4 were stunning. I'd still have a mk 4 R32 now - amazing looking car :drool:
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Aaaaanyway, I too am keen to see how they style the R, because in past iterations, I've preferred the styling of the GTI over the R.
Couldn't agree more. I "personally" prefer the styling of the previous GTI over the R. The R starts to look too alpha male, too Mitsubishi Evo, too loutish for "me". I much prefer understated design in cars. Wolf in sheeps clothing type of motoring. But that's just me :smiley:
I mean all VW need to do is place an R logo in the places where the GTI badges are right now, add unique alloys and "maybe" throw in some quad exhausts (although they're a bit chav on a 2 litre car). Job done.
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Anyway, I'm keen to see how they style the R, and also to see one in the lovely blue! :grin:
Me too. That blue that they showcased at the Paris (I think) motor show on the GTI is stunning - if it had been available as a colour pick in the UK I would have gone for it (although in Germany I think its just over £2K Euros :shocked:)
Also, I'm very interested in the styling of the R. The mk 6 was awful - looked like a normal Golf - whereas the R32 mk 5 and 4 were stunning. I'd still have a mk 4 R32 now - amazing looking car :drool:
Agree on the R32 mk 5 and 4 being nice looking cars, if they can replicate the effect on the MK7 I'm going to want one!
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Aaaaanyway, I too am keen to see how they style the R, because in past iterations, I've preferred the styling of the GTI over the R.
Couldn't agree more. I "personally" prefer the styling of the previous GTI over the R. The R starts to look too alpha male, too Mitsubishi Evo, too loutish for "me". I much prefer understated design in cars. Wolf in sheeps clothing type of motoring. But that's just me :)
I mean all VW need to do is place an R logo in the places where the GTI badges are right now, add unique alloys and "maybe" throw in some quad exhausts (although they're a bit chav on a 2 litre car). Job done.
I really hope they don't go down the quad exhaust route, it just doesn't do it for me. :-\
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I like the quad exhausts! But agree it could be deemed a little too much on a car that size.
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Our previous TT-s had quad exhausts and they looked and sounded excellent
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Personally I have always struggled with VW'S R brand, in someways I think it is a victim of the GTi status. I looked at the mk5 R a few times but could never see why to bother going for it other than the v6 v the 4 cyl engine.. Plus I preferred the gti alloys.
And apart from the noise, in the real world it wasn't much quicker thanks to the turbo torque. That's why I never gave the mk6 R even a glance.. For that money I would want 6 cylinders under the bonnet.
Then you look today at the gti and gtd, they are already stepping on the toes of the s3 and M135i in terms of price so where does that leave an R at probably well over 30k for base spec?
at 26k, the price of my sensibly specced gti I feel there is enough gap to the s3 etc not to worry about it because it is such a good all rounder, but would I pay 34 to 35k for a golf R or R D ? Never. For that money I could go way more upmarket and buy nearly new Cayman or Boxster for example, a used RS3 or TTRS with way more punch and not 4 cylinders.
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The more I think about this the more it annoyes me that VW dropped the V6 3.2 litre R32. A special motor. I hate the fact that VW have to be a "responsible" car manufacture and have to reduce emissions globally. This meant dropping the likes of the V6 3.2 litre and sticking a 2.0 litre 4-pot in their R brand cars. Wrong move.
I think if VW stuck their neck out and plonked in a super efficient, sh*t off a shovel 3 litre 5/6 cylinder into their R brand cars it would seriously help differentiate them from the "lesser" GTI/GTD brands. It would give them I clear gap and a good reason to upgrade to the more potent weapon. It would make owners feel that bit more special. God knows why they don't do this (well I do know but it annoys me).
I know we all have to look to the future, reduce emissions, yadda, yadda... But... D'ya think Audi give a s*it about this when they launch their RS cars. Errr no... they just do it, and what engines they are!
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As this seems to have developed into a diesel vs petrol spat, I have never quite figured out why the diesel lovers are completely oblivious to the cost of replacing the obligatory DPF (particluate filter). Perhaps it is because they hope it will last beyond the three year warranty? Whatever. When (not if) it fails it will probably negate any fuel savings and you would have been better with GTI in the first place. I have been guilty of this (with my recent Mk 6) and will never buy a diesel again, at least not one that is equipped with a DPF.
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I haven't noticed any differences between the GTI and GTD :tongue: :tongue: :tongue:
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As this seems to have developed into a diesel vs petrol spat, I have never quite figured out why the diesel lovers are completely oblivious to the cost of replacing the obligatory DPF (particluate filter). Perhaps it is because they hope it will last beyond the three year warranty? Whatever. When (not if) it fails it will probably negate any fuel savings and you would have been better with GTI in the first place. I have been guilty of this (with my recent Mk 6) and will never buy a diesel again, at least not one that is equipped with a DPF.
I agree with you :smiley:
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Agree with you 100% H50
The gti fits the 4 cyl do everything well mode perfectly, if you want to go to the next level, it should say to hell with the economy and be a 5 or 6 cyl motor to truly differentiate it.
I don't think I would ever pay upwards of 30k or so for a 4 cylinder car. I have a 1998 fiat coupe 20v turbo that cost £1800 and the 5 cyl engine in that is just something else, so much more sound and character than a 4 cylinder. Rather than swap the gti for an R I would rather keep it and buy a used e46 BMW M3 CSL for summer fun :wink:
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As this seems to have developed into a diesel vs petrol spat, I have never quite figured out why the diesel lovers are completely oblivious to the cost of replacing the obligatory DPF (particluate filter). Perhaps it is because they hope it will last beyond the three year warranty? Whatever. When (not if) it fails it will probably negate any fuel savings and you would have been better with GTI in the first place. I have been guilty of this (with my recent Mk 6) and will never buy a diesel again, at least not one that is equipped with a DPF.
DPF is good for many miles. The MK5 2.0TDI PD engine has a DPF rated for 150k miles before it fills up with incombustible ash, The MK7 GTD is 20% more fuel efficient so should be good for 180k miles. Nowt to worry about! If you have DPF issues it is generally because you're not doing decent miles on your trips to get a passive regen going on a regular basis or there is something wrong with your engine, making it run rich - like a dribbly injector.
Did you have issues with yours :shocked: or have you been reading up on the scare stories and made assumptions? :rolleyes:
My MK5 170TDI had some iniitial issues (it was the first Golf to have a TDI with a DPF, 170 only, 140 PD didn't have it) with frequent forced DPF regen and poor economy. After some investigative work VW applied an official remap and the car ran like a dream after that. My 2 Sciroccos since have driven without a single forced regen, everything happening passively for normal DPF operation and anticipated 150k miles operational life.
Do you really think VW would fit equipment like DPF with a £1200 replacement cost that would be likely shagged possibly just within warranty? That would cost VW a fortune, nor would they deliberately saddle a TDI owner with such a cost through normal circumstances not long after warranty implications, there would be hell on!
I can see why you're not a TDI fan, the 1.6 unit is an abomination - barely more economical than a new 2.0TDI but way down on power and there have been some DPF issues with it, especially on shorter journeys - the unit is in it's infancy, I think VW are still learning with it. It's a pointless engine - don't know why VW didn't do the BMW approach - a single 2.0 diesel engine with many stages of tune. I'm sure they could've stretched 74mpg combined from a 2.0 unit detuned to about 110PS.
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Agree with you 100% H50
The gti fits the 4 cyl do everything well mode perfectly, if you want to go to the next level, it should say to hell with the economy and be a 5 or 6 cyl motor to truly differentiate it.
I don't think I would ever pay upwards of 30k or so for a 4 cylinder car. I have a 1998 fiat coupe 20v turbo that cost £1800 and the 5 cyl engine in that is just something else, so much more sound and character than a 4 cylinder. Rather than swap the gti for an R I would rather keep it and buy a used e46 BMW M3 CSL for summer fun :wink:
The MK5 R32 was a truly great car. My neighbour had one - fast as feck and sounded many times better than a 4 cylinder, effortless performance - and 19mpg in everyday use.
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I can see why you're not a TDI fan, the 1.6 unit is an abomination
Actually, the engine is a little peach and combined with DSG, is remarkably quick and unbelievably economical. I just won't ever buy either DSG or a DPF equipped car ever again, whatever assumptions you think I have made. The DSG recalls in China and extended warranties to 10 years in the US and elsewhere have made sure of that one. I have never had any problems with my car in particular, however.
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I can see why you're not a TDI fan, the 1.6 unit is an abomination
Actually, the engine is a little peach and combined with DSG, is remarkably quick and unbelievably economical. I just won't ever buy either DSG or a DPF equipped car ever again, whatever assumptions you think I have made. The DSG recalls in China and extended warranties to 10 years in the US and elsewhere have made sure of that one. I have never had any problems with my car in particular, however.
US always get 10 year “powertrain” warranties. It’s standard on all cars over there. If VW didn’t do it then the yanks would all be buying Chryslers, Fords, GMs, Hondas instead that do have it. Not a bad thing (for them) and doesn’t reflect on the reliability at all – it’s just something they have to do to compete in that market. Proton did it for a short while (and heavily advertised the fact) when getting themselves established in the UK and then quietly removed it.
Just goes to show how much VW must be making from its European sales if it can afford to subsidise US sales to the extent that it does with both significantly lower car prices and gold plated warranties. When the lack of a 5 year warranty starts harming EU sales of VWs and other VAG group cars, they will make it standard- they only do what they need to do. VW prices in the US aren’t 35% cheaper purely down to using Mexican labour for many of the VWs supplied to the US, and it’s not like they see their equipment massively cut back either (they even get free metallic paint).
VW DPFs are nowt to worry about (given their huge expected service life) unless you’re pootling to the shops and back. Doing 5 mile journeys all the time? Don’t buy a TDI. Not sure why you have such massive concerns about the DPF despite having no issues with the system yourself. I’m in my 3rd VW with DPF now and have no concerns at all since the first one’s teething troubles were sorted very quickly.
The 1.6TDI/DPF is a bad combination for many. There are people who are drawn to the 1.6TDI because they want the most economical option and are only doing short journeys anyway, then wonder why the DPF light is coming on frequently with forced regens rather than passive regens. Some of them are being mis-sold and the high output 1.2TSI or low output 1.4TSI would probably be a better fit for their driving habits. There is someone on another forum who’s had nowt but bother with his and claims he does 13k miles a year so shouldn’t have an issue (but has actually done about 1200 miles in 3 months). TDI on a city car makes no sense at all.
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I can see why you're not a TDI fan, the 1.6 unit is an abomination
Actually, the engine is a little peach and combined with DSG, is remarkably quick and unbelievably economical
Isn't the 1.4 petrol more economical, and faster... and cheaper. :whistle:
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US always get 10 year “powertrain” warranties. It’s standard on all cars over there.
No it's certainly not standard on all cars over there. VW have just applied it to their DSG box in the US. It has a 10 year warranty for Touaregs but 5 for everything else.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-Shift_Gearbox#Problems_and_recalls_of_DSG-equipped_vehicles
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/vw-uk-why-we-dont-need-dsg-recall
DPFs are in inelegant engineering solution to an emissions problem and while they may not affect most of us who change cars relatively frequently, they are bound to fail and be an huge expense, at some stage. I am buying the GTI, hopefully with the intention of keeping it longer term than I would normally keep a car, so its relative mechanical simplicity with a manual box and a petrol engine is a bonus.
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DPFs are in inelegant engineering solution to an emissions problem and while they may not affect most of us who change cars relatively frequently, they are bound to fail and be an huge expense, at some stage. I am buying the GTI, hopefully with the intention of keeping it longer term than I would normally keep a car, so its relative mechanical simplicity with a manual box and a petrol engine is a bonus.
At some stage. Same can be said of all tech on your car. Your original DPF related post implied it was highly likely they'd be knacked within 3 years or soon after. More than a little misleading to the uninformed, a shock statement with not an ounce of substance.
All VWs are built with the intention of major components lasting well beyond the warranty for all but consumable items such as brakes, clutch and tyres. DPF is not a consumable item and it is intended to last as long as the average car will. At 180k miles service life this is not an issue that will affect many people in ownership of a VAG TDI, many cars will have been scrapped for other issues by that point and replacements will only get cheaper as time goes on.
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The DPF was definitely a major issue on the Mk5's and all of the 170 engines throughout the VAG range (think there was some serious mis-selling going on), but since they moved to CR170 it has improved dramatically from what you hear.
My GTD has done 54k and ive not had one forced regen in the 12000 miles I've had it.
So definitely a bit of a blanket statement there!
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DSG recalls in China
I think this is an overreaction. I've spec'ed DSG and have no end of people at the office keep telling me (very patronising) "ooh, you don't want to do that, just go google DSG problems..." and then smiling all smug like they know something I don't.
Well, its always the 7 speed dry DSG that is being recalled, not the 6 speed fitted to the GTI. If you look at the details of the China recall the cars are all 1.4TSI, which has the 7 speed box, and they are manufactured in China itself. There are some imports from Germany also being recalled but this is just because they've issued a blanket recall, the problem is the Chinese build ones as I understand it.
To be honest I'm kind of sick of work colleagues or friends down the pub constantly telling me what is wrong with my choice of car. After DSG they go to: "White, no that looks rubbish. Get grey" (I get asked if I've "changed the colour to grey yet?" about 3 times a day... :angry:). "Ugh, those seats look like my nan's conservatory furniture, you haven't ordered them have you?" (as it happens I've got leather, but that's not the point). "Don't get 5 door it looks crap, get 3 door." "Don't like the red trim in the headlights..." The latest one is criticism of the e-diff.
So my mate has just bought a Civic R (07 model or something). The other morning he was joking that I should cancel the GTI and get a 2014 Civic R (Can you not just be positive about my choice of car? For just once, is that too much to ask?). Trying to be friendly and chatty instead of just going silent every time the GTI is insulted I asked if the Civic would be getting an LSD? ...Apparently "they've had them since 2010". No, I say, is it getting a front e-diff. Right now the GTI is the only one on the market with one. "Oh, you don't want to get an e-diff, go and Google e-diff problems." "There are loads and loads of cars with e-diffs." "Look up jaguar e-diff problems." etc etc etc... :angry:
/rant
I've forgotten what my point is now. I think it was that often it is said that there are going to be problems, but that in reality no data is offered to back those claims up or the statements are made out of context. If you steer clear of everything that has gone wrong at some random time in the past then you just make life unnecessarily difficult for yourself. As they say in Rain Man:
- "Quantas never crashed."
- "That's gonna do me a lot of good Ray. Quantas doesn't fly to L.A. out of Cincinnati. You have got to get to Melbourne... Australia in order to get the plane that flies to Los Angeles!"
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Bill: Yep - you only hear about the bad stuff. For every bad DSG there will be thousands of good ones that don't have a voice.
Honda Civic though? They're cheap (built to a very noticeable price), the design is very marmite and unless the new 2013/14 model has changed, it won't even have a multilink rear suspension that'll massively compromise the handling (your colleagues might have it if it is the grandad looking one and not the newer "space-age" looking one). The old Civic (circa 2005ish) was a grandad looking car, and adding some sporting cues on the R didn't really save it in the looks. Not a fan of the naturally aspirated 200ps engine either. You had to rev the nuts off it to get it to do anything. Below 4500rpm it was useless due to it's massive lack or torque. I think you'll know who has the better car! :whistle:
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Bill: Yep - you only hear about the bad stuff. For every bad DSG there will be thousands of good ones that don't have a voice.
Honda Civic though? They're cheap (built to a very noticeable price), the design is very marmite and unless the new 2013/14 model has changed, it won't even have a multilink rear suspension that'll massively compromise the handling (your colleagues might have it if it is the grandad looking one and not the newer "space-age" looking one). The old Civic (circa 2005ish) was a grandad looking car, and adding some sporting cues on the R didn't really save it in the looks. Not a fan of the naturally aspirated 200ps engine either. You had to rev the nuts off it to get it to do anything. Below 4500rpm it was useless due to it's massive lack or torque. I think you'll know who has the better car! :whistle:
Exactly, and if they take their own advice those CTR owners should be googling door rust problems, or issues with 3rd gear... I haven't mentioned this to them though because I'm nice, however I'm seriously considering not letting them get in my new GTI when it finally arrives since I have no desire to listen to them criticise it.
Every bloody day I get "have you changed it to grey yet?" No! And fcuk off, this joke wasn't funny the first time it certainly isn't funny after two months! :angry:
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Bill_the_Bear, don't want to turn this into a CTR bashing thread (as I love the cars) but you could gently remind your pub friend that the FN2 does without the independent rear suspension in favour of a cheaper, less-beneficial torsion beam; you could also remind him that only the Championship White edition came with a proper LSD; you could point to the fake exhausts which hide microscopic pea shooters behind them; or mention the wonderful rear spoiler that is a triumph of design over function. At least when VW do design, they still manage to keep the practicality.
As for the GTI, I think white is spot on for the MK7. So you get a thumbs up from me.
Returning to the topic though, I very much doubt a R tdi. Not even Audi offers a faster diesel in the A3 range and Audi is arguably the more appealing brand in terms of fast diesels. In fact, Audi don't even offer a competitor to the GTD (in terms of a unique performance diesel flagship), instead offering the engines in a variety of trims. But then again, they don't offer a GTI rival either and instead lump the 217bhp engine in amongst the "standard" trims.
And then we come to the argument in favour of diesels. Which invariably is cost. People might argue they like the torque, but a big V8 will offer plenty - the problem is the cost of running the V8. So the logic is that someone would pay... let's guess around £32-33k on a Golf R tdi, to save themselves around £2-3k in fuel costs over the course of 20-30k miles against a £27k GTI.
Take you 2 years to play catch up with the GTI.
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DSG recalls in China
I think this is an overreaction. I've spec'ed DSG and have no end of people at the office keep telling me (very patronising) "ooh, you don't want to do that, just go google DSG problems..." and then smiling all smug like they know something I don't.
Well, its always the 7 speed dry DSG that is being recalled, not the 6 speed fitted to the GTI. If you look at the details of the China recall the cars are all 1.4TSI, which has the 7 speed box, and they are manufactured in China itself. There are some imports from Germany also being recalled but this is just because they've issued a blanket recall, the problem is the Chinese build ones as I understand it.
To be honest I'm kind of sick of work colleagues or friends down the pub constantly telling me what is wrong with my choice of car. After DSG they go to: "White, no that looks rubbish. Get grey" (I get asked if I've "changed the colour to grey yet?" about 3 times a day... :angry:). "Ugh, those seats look like my nan's conservatory furniture, you haven't ordered them have you?" (as it happens I've got leather, but that's not the point). "Don't get 5 door it looks crap, get 3 door." "Don't like the red trim in the headlights..." The latest one is criticism of the e-diff.
So my mate has just bought a Civic R (07 model or something). The other morning he was joking that I should cancel the GTI and get a 2014 Civic R (Can you not just be positive about my choice of car? For just once, is that too much to ask?). Trying to be friendly and chatty instead of just going silent every time the GTI is insulted I asked if the Civic would be getting an LSD? ...Apparently "they've had them since 2010". No, I say, is it getting a front e-diff. Right now the GTI is the only one on the market with one. "Oh, you don't want to get an e-diff, go and Google e-diff problems." "There are loads and loads of cars with e-diffs." "Look up jaguar e-diff problems." etc etc etc... :angry:
/rant
I've forgotten what my point is now. I think it was that often it is said that there are going to be problems, but that in reality no data is offered to back those claims up or the statements are made out of context. If you steer clear of everything that has gone wrong at some random time in the past then you just make life unnecessarily difficult for yourself. As they say in Rain Man:
- "Quantas never crashed."
- "That's gonna do me a lot of good Ray. Quantas doesn't fly to L.A. out of Cincinnati. You have got to get to Melbourne... Australia in order to get the plane that flies to Los Angeles!"
Jealous of you and your soon to be GTI springs to mind