GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk7 => Topic started by: dippy_x on 15 May 2013, 08:41
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I've read quite a few threads at a few forums now whereby people have been complaining about fuel efficiency and performance of their motors and the general suggestion is that the engines have not been run in properly. There are a few mentions of this in the GTI Petrol thread as well:
It has been for me and my previous VW TDIs. They've all been run in nicely with lots of variety in engine speed, with the occasional incursion to 2/3 throttle, for the first 1000 miles, and none of them have used a drop of oil between services, given good economy and a decent power output. There is one exception. A 140TDI Golf MK5 GT I had was bought from VW Lookers in Burnley via UKNEWCARS and driven directly from the dealership down to relatives in Southampton. That car pretty much sat at 75mph in 6th for the first 300 miles (did the same going back to Newcastle a few days later), and I think it must have glazed the bores. That car was sluggish, thirsty and used a litre of oil every 1000 miles.
Whats the general consensus on this?
When I [eventually] pick up my GTD the first trip I will be making is a 220 mile / 4 hour motorway trip back home - is this likely to screw the engine up?
Thanks
D
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Dippy: In my experience, yes. Out of 6 VW TDIs I had from new - the only one I ran in on motorway cruising was poor on economy, power and oil consumption. I won't be doing it again. That was my quote you have there. I suspect that the first few hundred miles are far more critical than those that come after.
If I were to go via the broker route again, buying a car miles away from home, i'd be getting it back home along the back roads, lots of start-stop traffic with varying engine speeds, going through the gears etc. Maybe you could break up the journey by making a an afternoon of it somewhere halfway home and stick to the smaller A and B roads?
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Monkeyhanger I had exactly the same issue with my Mk5 2.0 TDI GT 140, used oil like an Arab. I was forever putting expensive oil in it. The trouble is I can't remember how I ran it in (it was 8 years ago).
As I'm going back to diesel again, I want to be sure I'm going to run it in correctly this time.
I'll be following this tread with interest.
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Hawaii: When running in the current Roc, I had a unique experience. When I picked up the 170TDI Roc I was disappointed with it. It felt ridiculously tight, and no more powerful than the 140TDI Roc i'd traded in for it. Up until about 320 miles (i'm assuming a 500km count). it felt like it was being held back and then suddenly I had access to a lot more power. It was like a switch had been flicked and I felt like i'd got what I paid for. I've never experienced anything like it in my previous TDIs (2.0 140/CR; 2.0 170PD; 2.0 140PD; 1.9 105PD, 1.4 75PD).
I do wonder whether the 170CR (and maybe the 185CR) has a running in program that limits what you can do with it for the first 500km. A few others on the Scirocco forum experienced a similar situation with theirs and initially thinking theirs was disappointing or faulty.
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I looked into this about a month ago searching the web for some real data or opinions that were based on engineering rather than witchcraft. Surprisingly there seems to be little out there. Here were the main things I found:
- Do what it says in your manual
- Modern engines should not need "running in"
- Do it anyway... :huh:
I found this kind of unhelpful.
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I looked into this about a month ago searching the web for some real data or opinions that were based on engineering rather than witchcraft. Surprisingly there seems to be little out there. Here were the main things I found:
- Do what it says in your manual
- Modern engines should not need "running in"
- Do it anyway... :huh:
I found this kind of unhelpful.
Couldn't agree more Bill. People's opinions are varied on this subject. I would tend to follow the manual. I think the general rule of thumb is don't rev above 3000rpm for the first 500-1000 miles and just gradually break the engine in.
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I looked into this about a month ago searching the web for some real data or opinions that were based on engineering rather than witchcraft. Surprisingly there seems to be little out there. Here were the main things I found:
- Do what it says in your manual
- Modern engines should not need "running in"
- Do it anyway... :huh:
I found this kind of unhelpful.
Couldn't agree more Bill. People's opinions are varied on this subject. I would tend to follow the manual. I think the general rule of thumb is don't rev above 3000rpm for the first 500-1000 miles and just gradually break the engine in.
Under 3000rpm? I hope you're talking diesel!
Here's my take on running in, try to vary your revs for the first 500-1000 miles so even if on the motorway drop it a gear for a while and vary the speed a little along with the revs. Apart from that feel free to redline once the engine is up to temperature :laugh:
Babying an engine while running it in does it no good IMO.
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Here's my take on running in, try to vary your revs for the first 500-1000 miles so even if on the motorway drop it a gear for a while and vary the speed a little along with the revs. Apart from that feel free to redline once the engine is up to temperature :laugh:
Babying an engine while running it in does it no good IMO.
Gonna have to wrest control away from the DSG then?
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Here's my take on running in, try to vary your revs for the first 500-1000 miles so even if on the motorway drop it a gear for a while and vary the speed a little along with the revs. Apart from that feel free to redline once the engine is up to temperature :laugh:
Babying an engine while running it in does it no good IMO.
Gonna have to wrest control away from the DSG then?
If that's what it takes :smiley:
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I looked into this about a month ago searching the web for some real data or opinions that were based on engineering rather than witchcraft. Surprisingly there seems to be little out there. Here were the main things I found:
- Do what it says in your manual
- Modern engines should not need "running in"
- Do it anyway... :huh:
I found this kind of unhelpful.
Couldn't agree more Bill. People's opinions are varied on this subject. I would tend to follow the manual. I think the general rule of thumb is don't rev above 3000rpm for the first 500-1000 miles and just gradually break the engine in.
Under 3000rpm? I hope you're talking diesel!
Here's my take on running in, try to vary your revs for the first 500-1000 miles so even if on the motorway drop it a gear for a while and vary the speed a little along with the revs. Apart from that feel free to redline once the engine is up to temperature :laugh:
Babying an engine while running it in does it no good IMO.
There you go, everyone has different opinions. I cannot believe red lining a new engine does it any good. Its a subjective topic.
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I cannot believe red lining a new engine does it any good. Its a subjective topic.
Once the oil is up to temperature, I really cannot see the problem.
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People are over thinking this. Just use the same mechanical sympathy that you normally would when driving from cold and all will be fine.
High revs aren't an issue, it's how you get there that matter. Obviously flat out from every set of lights won't do much good, but accelerating to 130mph at 3/4 throttle won't do any harm (other than to your license if you get caught). The same goes for labouring the engine at low revs. Your ears will tell you when the engine is happiest.
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You guys are forgetting that by the time you sit into your new pride and joy, it'll have been "run in" by the hoodlums who unload the ferry, load the shipping trucks, unload it at the dealers, etc, etc... :grin:
I've seen first hand how cars are taken off those ferrries!!
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I cannot believe red lining a new engine does it any good. Its a subjective topic.
Once the oil is up to temperature, I really cannot see the problem.
If you're not keeping the car out of warranty it doesn't matter too much.
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People are over thinking this. Just use the same mechanical sympathy that you normally would when driving from cold and all will be fine.
My concern isn't mechanical sympathy from overdoing it, it's poor economy/performance and high oil consumption from underdoing it - i.e. sat on a motorway in 6th doing 2000rpm for the first 300 miles of it's life. Give it some variety during it's early miles (up to 500), don't flog a cold engine and it should be run in well enough to give good performance/economy and low oil consumption.
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You guys are forgetting that by the time you sit into your new pride and joy, it'll have been "run in" by the hoodlums who unload the ferry, load the shipping trucks, unload it at the dealers, etc, etc... :grin:
I've seen first hand how cars are taken off those ferrries!!
Damn straight! I've read a few forums where the staff have been discussing what fun they had in driving it from the compound. So I asked one dealer if I could drive it from the compound to the dealership, or at least sit with the driver to ensure he behaves himself. Dealer said I could :). From the port they are loaded on to a transporter so that's not a problem.
Also, can you imagine the very first GTI's with PP being driven for the first time by the driver from compound to the dealership and in the PDI? The driver is gonna be pretty keen on testing that baby out to the max. Now who wants their GTI first? ;)
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Damn straight! I've read a few forums where the staff have been discussing what fun they had in driving it from the compound. So I asked one dealer if I could drive it from the compound to the dealership, or at least sit with the driver to ensure he behaves himself. Dealer said I could :). From the port they are loaded on to a transporter so that's not a problem.
Also, can you imagine the very first GTI's with PP being driven for the first time by the driver from compound to the dealership and in the PDI? The driver is gonna be pretty keen on testing that baby out to the max. Now who wants their GTI first? ;)
Forgive my ignorance but what is this compound you refer to?
I had assumed, naively perhaps, that the car would be shipped all the way to the dealer on a transporter of some description.
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Hi have a 230 mile trip back when I pick the gti up and will be using fast a and b roads.
really dont want to sit at a constant rpm.
Will be using different loads and using the rev range, but obviously not hammering it through every cog at every opportunity.
Needs a careful yet firm approach IMO.
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Thrash it from the start.
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Thrash it from the start.
Is that tongue in cheek or will you be trashing the nuts off it from the start?
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Damn straight! I've read a few forums where the staff have been discussing what fun they had in driving it from the compound. So I asked one dealer if I could drive it from the compound to the dealership, or at least sit with the driver to ensure he behaves himself. Dealer said I could :). From the port they are loaded on to a transporter so that's not a problem.
Also, can you imagine the very first GTI's with PP being driven for the first time by the driver from compound to the dealership and in the PDI? The driver is gonna be pretty keen on testing that baby out to the max. Now who wants their GTI first? ;)
Forgive my ignorance but what is this compound you refer to?
I had assumed, naively perhaps, that the car would be shipped all the way to the dealer on a transporter of some description.
I assume it's the place where they deliver a dealership's batch of cars. A central point for that area. let's say for example, West London. Then each dealership of that network, e.g. Citygate vw would pick up the cars from there. Well that's what my dealer told me anyway. He said the driver would drive it from Greenford to Watford, about 13-20 miles depending on route.
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For many kinds of equipment (with automotive engines being the prime example), the time it takes to complete break-in procedures has decreased significantly from a number of days to a few hours, for several reasons.
The main reason is that the factories in which they are produced are now capable of better machining and assembly. For example, it is easier to hold tighter tolerances now, and the average surface finish of a new cylinder wall has improved. Manufacturers decades ago were capable of such accuracy and precision, but not with as low a unit cost or with as much ease. Therefore, the average engine made today resembles, in some technical respects, the top-end custom work of back then.[5] For some equipment, break-in is now done at the factory, obviating end-user break-in. This is advantageous for several reasons. It is a selling point with customers who don't want to have to worry about break-in and want full performance "right out of the box". And it also aligns with the fact that compliance rates are always uncertain in the hands of end users. As with medical compliance or regulatory compliance, an authority can give all the instructions it wants, but there is no guarantee that the end user will follow them.
The other reason for shorter break-in regimens today is that a greater amount of science has been applied to the understanding of break-in, and this has led to the realization that some of the old, long, painstaking break-in regimens were based on specious reasoning[citation needed]. People developed elaborate theories on what was needed and why, and it was hard to sift the empirical evidence in trying to test or confirm the theories. Anecdotal evidence and confirmation bias definitely played at least some part. Today engineers can confidently advise users not to put too much stock in old theories of long, elaborate break-in regimens
Some users will not give credence to the engineers and will stick to their own ideas anyway; but their careful break-in beliefs are still harmless and serve roughly like a placebo in allowing them to assure themselves that they've maximized the equipment's working lifespan through their due diligence.
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For many kinds of equipment (with automotive engines being the prime example), the time it takes to complete break-in procedures has decreased significantly from a number of days to a few hours, for several reasons.
The main reason is that the factories in which they are produced are now capable of better machining and assembly. For example, it is easier to hold tighter tolerances now, and the average surface finish of a new cylinder wall has improved. Manufacturers decades ago were capable of such accuracy and precision, but not with as low a unit cost or with as much ease. Therefore, the average engine made today resembles, in some technical respects, the top-end custom work of back then.[5] For some equipment, break-in is now done at the factory, obviating end-user break-in. This is advantageous for several reasons. It is a selling point with customers who don't want to have to worry about break-in and want full performance "right out of the box". And it also aligns with the fact that compliance rates are always uncertain in the hands of end users. As with medical compliance or regulatory compliance, an authority can give all the instructions it wants, but there is no guarantee that the end user will follow them.
The other reason for shorter break-in regimens today is that a greater amount of science has been applied to the understanding of break-in, and this has led to the realization that some of the old, long, painstaking break-in regimens were based on specious reasoning[citation needed]. People developed elaborate theories on what was needed and why, and it was hard to sift the empirical evidence in trying to test or confirm the theories. Anecdotal evidence and confirmation bias definitely played at least some part. Today engineers can confidently advise users not to put too much stock in old theories of long, elaborate break-in regimens
Some users will not give credence to the engineers and will stick to their own ideas anyway; but their careful break-in beliefs are still harmless and serve roughly like a placebo in allowing them to assure themselves that they've maximized the equipment's working lifespan through their due diligence.
Sources?
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Maybe a better question to pose in this thread is;
"What happens if I drive my car like its already been run in from new?"
What damage would/may be caused?
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For many kinds of equipment (with automotive engines being the prime example), the time it takes to complete break-in procedures has decreased significantly from a number of days to a few hours, for several reasons.
The main reason is that the factories in which they are produced are now capable of better machining and assembly. For example, it is easier to hold tighter tolerances now, and the average surface finish of a new cylinder wall has improved. Manufacturers decades ago were capable of such accuracy and precision, but not with as low a unit cost or with as much ease. Therefore, the average engine made today resembles, in some technical respects, the top-end custom work of back then.[5] For some equipment, break-in is now done at the factory, obviating end-user break-in. This is advantageous for several reasons. It is a selling point with customers who don't want to have to worry about break-in and want full performance "right out of the box". And it also aligns with the fact that compliance rates are always uncertain in the hands of end users. As with medical compliance or regulatory compliance, an authority can give all the instructions it wants, but there is no guarantee that the end user will follow them.
The other reason for shorter break-in regimens today is that a greater amount of science has been applied to the understanding of break-in, and this has led to the realization that some of the old, long, painstaking break-in regimens were based on specious reasoning[citation needed]. People developed elaborate theories on what was needed and why, and it was hard to sift the empirical evidence in trying to test or confirm the theories. Anecdotal evidence and confirmation bias definitely played at least some part. Today engineers can confidently advise users not to put too much stock in old theories of long, elaborate break-in regimens
Some users will not give credence to the engineers and will stick to their own ideas anyway; but their careful break-in beliefs are still harmless and serve roughly like a placebo in allowing them to assure themselves that they've maximized the equipment's working lifespan through their due diligence.
Sources?
Sorry, I hate to quote this place as a source (wikipedia :sick:)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Break-in_(mechanical_run-in)
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I guess I wold just err on the side of caution and do the break-in procedure as I guess it will not cause any harm. It will be an interesting / scenic / slower drive back home :smiley:
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I guess I wold just err on the side of caution and do the break-in procedure as I guess it will not cause any harm. It will be an interesting / scenic / slower drive back home :smiley:
Yes. But with some revs! Don't forget the revs!
More importantly how do we keep the compound cretin drivers greasy fingers off our cars before they do their own form of break-in???
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I think that happens once in a blue moon Bear. And no point worrying about something that you won't see nor have any control over! There's scumbags everywhere unfortunately.
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This may have been touched upon before but I'm a tad concerned about my first drive home in my GTD. (Something which should be enjoyed)
I've got 230 odd miles to drive it home, 90% of which will be on motorway. I've read on here, can't remember where, that's it bad for running the car in if the first few hundred miles are at a constant speed and completed on motorways. Is this true? If so, are there any suggestions to help avoid potential problems developing with my diesel engine. Problems such as developing a thirst for oil later on down the line etc..
Thx
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If the journey must be completed on motorway I would just try to avoid cruise control and vary the revs and speed as much as you can. Dropping to fifth and back to sixth etc, just try not to have too constant a speed and revs for prolonged periods.
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If the journey must be completed on motorway I would just try to avoid cruise control and vary the revs and speed as much as you can. Dropping to fifth and back to sixth etc, just try not to have too constant a speed and revs for prolonged periods.
Thanks for that Addict.
I've just reread this helpful thread here with some great advice.
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=253817.0
Mods feel free to delete this thread as it seems to have been covered before :)
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Would be a bit of an anti climax but you could use a car transport company.
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Would be a bit of an anti climax but you could use a car transport company.
Thought about that (only for a second though) and said to myself no, I want to have a proper hand over this time around so im picking it up myself. Had my last Scirocco delivery on a transporter from Scotland. It was filthy when it arrived and felt a bit flat without a proper handover.
I'm just a bit concerned that I don't want to shaft the running in period by taking it in motorway for the first few hundred miles. Bad stories about poor fuel economy and heavy oil useage for the life of the car if its been poorly run in.
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Merged. ;)
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Merged. ;)
Cheers matey. I now realise my error... Doh!
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Can't you plot your own route avoiding motorways...
Here is my route:
http://tinyurl.com/loyjhsz (http://tinyurl.com/loyjhsz)
I just set the start and end points in maps and then dragged the route until it was on suitably twisty roads. I'm such a geek I then ran the whole thing in street view to check the roads were good enough and not some dirt tracks or something! :whistle:
Post your here:
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=255134.0
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Would be a bit of an anti climax but you could use a car transport company.
Thought about that (only for a second though) and said to myself no, I want to have a proper hand over this time around so im picking it up myself. Had my last Scirocco delivery on a transporter from Scotland. It was filthy when it arrived and felt a bit flat without a proper handover.
I'm just a bit concerned that I don't want to shaft the running in period by taking it in motorway for the first few hundred miles. Bad stories about poor fuel economy and heavy oil useage for the life of the car if its been poorly run in.
Actually I was thinking more like picking up the car yourself, giving it a quick spin and then back to the dealer and onto a pre-arranged transporter.
Or just use the A and B roads, will take you a good few hours though.
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Or just use the A and B roads, will take you a good few hours though.
Where is the downside? :whistle:
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I have a very good friend who works for Audi, he tells me that the reason I had so many issues with my TSI is that I was too gentle with it at outset...the most powerful / fuel efficient / low oil usage were the one's ragged from day 1. Not sure about diesel tho so I'll ask him and post. My TSI was using 1 litre of oil a week!!!!! :shocked:
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I have a very good friend who works for Audi, he tells me that the reason I had so many issues with my TSI is that I was too gentle with it at outset...the most powerful / fuel efficient / low oil usage were the one's ragged from day 1. Not sure about diesel tho so I'll ask him and post. My TSI was using 1 litre of oil a week!!!!! :shocked:
My god, I hope you have shares in a oil company :shocked:
It also run a TSI and in nearly four years of running it its only taken 2 x 1/4 litre of oil in all that time. You must have been very unlucky.
Please post up what your Audi friend recommends for diesel engines.
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A lot of the posts have been about diesels. Does the same apply to petrol engines?
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A lot of the posts have been about diesels. Does the same apply to petrol engines?
Petrol? Drive it like you stole from the second you leave the forecourt. You don't wanna end up with a wimp of an engine in your GTI.
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A lot of the posts have been about diesels. Does the same apply to petrol engines?
The principles are the same, although compression ratio of a petrol engine is much lower than that of a diesel. Haven't had TSIs to know if it makes that much of a difference on a TSI
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I did some digging again for *reliable* information. I was looking for articles either by a professional organisation, rather than just someone's unqualified opinion, or with technical explanations to back up the claims. I found a few you might like to read if you're interested, I've put them in quote bubbles below.
The AA and Honest John each have short bullet point articles which take only a minute to read:
AA advice:
http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/general-advice/running-in-a-new-car.html
Honest John:
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/running-in-a-petrol-engine/
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/running-in-a-diesel/
Now, this article is much more extensive and is specifically pitched at VW/Audi TDI engines. I haven't read the whole thing yet because its much longer than the previous articles, but it looks good to me:
Article specifically on VW diesels:
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/engine-break-in.htm
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Bill: http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/engine-break-in.htm
Great article, and the giste of it is moderation - too hard or too soft can both be bad.
If I was facing a long drive in mine on the motorway to get home from the dealership a broker used then I would be dropping a gear occasionally to vary the revs, let the car decelerate to 50mph and maybe do half a mile at 50mph (behind a lorry/caravan) and gently accelerate to 70mph maybe once or twice every 10 miles or so etc. Worst thing for me on a badly run-in enginne is it's thirst for oil.