GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk7 => Topic started by: ROO1 on 09 May 2013, 21:06
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Why not?
Bigger brakes, diff, and remap.
Or would it step on the GTi's toes too easily...
Remapped would see 230bhp and 350 torque. Animal
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Why not?
Bigger brakes, diff, and remap.
Or would it step on the GTi's toes too easily...
Remapped would see 230bhp and 350 torque. Animal
But a remapped GTI would make a lot more than 230bhp :wink:
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Why not?
Bigger brakes, diff, and remap.
Or would it step on the GTi's toes too easily...
Remapped would see 230bhp and 350 torque. Animal
But a remapped GTI would make a lot more than 230bhp :wink:
It's the torque that makes the difference. Remember horsepower will affect how hard you hit the wall, but torque will determine how far you will take it with you.
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Why not?
Bigger brakes, diff, and remap.
Or would it step on the GTi's toes too easily...
Remapped would see 230bhp and 350 torque. Animal
But a remapped GTI would make a lot more than 230bhp :wink:
It's the torque that makes the difference. Remember horsepower will affect how hard you hit the wall, but torque will determine how far you will take it with you.
Yup, bu the massive jump in torque on the MK7 GTI from the MK6 has narrowed the torque gap a lot.
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Why not?
Bigger brakes, diff, and remap.
Or would it step on the GTi's toes too easily...
Remapped would see 230bhp and 350 torque. Animal
But a remapped GTI would make a lot more than 230bhp :wink:
It's the torque that makes the difference. Remember horsepower will affect how hard you hit the wall, but torque will determine how far you will take it with you.
Yup, bu the massive jump in torque on the MK7 GTI from the MK6 has narrowed the torque gap a lot.
True
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Why do we think a PP isn't available then?
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Why do we think a PP isn't available then?
Because if Performance is what you want why haven't you picked the GTI?
Dunno but maybe this is the reason.
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But that would give you performance with economy. :grin:
If they could tune the GTD to what the GTI performs at just now (which I'm sure they could), then would there be a need for the GTI?
Folk would just be buying for the GTI emblem especially those not looking at remapping their GTI.
Not that there is anything wrong with that :smiley:
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But the economy would drop down to the GTI level probably...
They are 2 different products really. Maxing out the GTD so it is similar to the GTI defeats the point of the GTD. unless you can do this and still have the economy... But yo can't usually have your cake and eat it, or so I'm told.
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But that would give you performance with economy. :grin:
If they could tune the GTD to what the GTI performs at just now (which I'm sure they could), then would there be a need for the GTI?
Folk would just be buying for the GTI emblem especially those not looking at remapping their GTI.
Not that there is anything wrong with that :smiley:
As nice to drive as fast diesels are, I have yet to drive one that feels like a fast petrol car. I'm not saying either one is better than the other, just different, and personally I prefer petrol in a performance car. In saying that I fully understand why some people prefer the oil burner.
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I think they should have offered the Performance Pack on the GTD, but i knew they wouldn't. They don't want to hurt GTI sales or its persona too much. Especially a dirty old diesel :wink:
The thing is there are more powerful stock diesels out there. For example the 125d pushes out 450 Nm 332 lb-ft or torque and 214 bhp. That's gotta be close to the stock GTI. I'm sure VW could have pushed the new GTD close to the 125d if they'd wanted to. Mind you they would have needed to throw on an extra turbo to get there :wink:
TBH I'd have been happier to get a more powerful GTD on launch with a slight reduction in mpg.
I tell you this much, I wouldn't be happy if VW brought out a Golf R TDI in the future. Would de-value our (currently top spec) GTD no end.
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But the economy would drop down to the GTI level probably...
They are 2 different products really. Maxing out the GTD so it is similar to the GTI defeats the point of the GTD. unless you can do this and still have the economy... But yo can't usually have your cake and eat it, or so I'm told.
But that is the whole point. Those that remapped their MK6 GTD's were still getting the economy (some were even getting better economy) and had the power of the GTI.
Where is The Doc when you need him :laugh:
But why would VW do that from the factory as it would be suicide?
Granted the power delivery would be different and some people would just prefer petrol over diesel so the GTI wouldn't die but you might find more and more going to the GTD.
Personally I just love the torque from a diesel.
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One of the quickest cars I've had was the mk2 Leon fr diesel. didn't realise it had been re mapped until after I'd bought it from seat but it went like stink and regularly got mid fifty mpg's. Better than any petrol car I'd had and haven't bought petrol since.
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But that would give you performance with economy. :grin:
If they could tune the GTD to what the GTI performs at just now (which I'm sure they could), then would there be a need for the GTI?
Folk would just be buying for the GTI emblem especially those not looking at remapping their GTI.
Not that there is anything wrong with that :smiley:
As nice to drive as fast diesels are, I have yet to drive one that feels like a fast petrol car. I'm not saying either one is better than the other, just different, and personally I prefer petrol in a performance car. In saying that I fully understand why some people prefer the oil burner.
My old 330d remapped drove like a fast petrol
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One of the quickest cars I've had was the mk2 Leon fr diesel. didn't realise it had been re mapped until after I'd bought it from seat but it went like stink and regularly got mid fifty mpg's. Better than any petrol car I'd had and haven't bought petrol since.
I agree. My brother has an 11 plate and its mosterously quick. Must be remapped I keep saying.
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I don't think VW would go down the remapping route for making a higher output 2.0TDI engine, they would almost certainly go bi-turbo, but how much would that cost and what would the effect on economy/CO2 be? If they could keep it above 60mpg and below 120g CO2/km for the manual versions and still chuck out 215-225PS I think they'd have a lot of buyers if it didn't add more than a grand onto GTDs list price. How much would that trample on GTIs sales? Quite a bit I would imagine, only the ardent diesel hater wouldn't consider it over a GTI still at 220PS.
There are a few tricks that VW could have used to make the GTI even more frugal such as cylinder deactivation tech seen on the 140TSI engine - probably would've added an easy 5mpg onto the fuel economy (but at what retail cost?). In the end they've placed them just far enough apart to minimalise cannibalisation of each others sales.
Being cautious, VW would probably reinforce a few bits of the engine like hardened pistons (that they used to do for R and Cupra 2.0TSI over the standard 200/210PS version - do they still do that?), so not all of the money is going on an extra turbo. Bigger brakes might also be something they add in, and then you might be talking another £1200 over the GTDs list price, would the extra sales be worth the effort or would 95% of the GTDers out there be happy with the standard model?
The 125d is a bit of an anomalie, is anyone else offering bi-turbo in this car size segment? I suppose it's a lot easier to justify the resultant list price on a BMW, even if it is a 1 series.
If VW upped the tech stakes for the GTD and GTI as my suggestions above, you'd be talking a 220PS GTI with 53-55mpg vs a GTD-R with 220PS and 60mpg. With 5mpg in it between them would many buy a GTD over a GTI?
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I don't think VW would go down the remapping route for making a higher output 2.0TDI engine, they would almost certainly go bi-turbo, but how much would that cost and what would the effect on economy/CO2 be? If they could keep it above 60mpg and below 120g CO2/km for the manual versions and still chuck out 215-225PS I think they'd have a lot of buyers if it didn't add more than a grand onto GTDs list price. How much would that trample on GTIs sales? Quite a bit I would imagine, only the ardent diesel hater wouldn't consider it over a GTI still at 220PS.
There are a few tricks that VW could have used to make the GTI even more frugal such as cylinder deactivation tech seen on the 140TSI engine - probably would've added an easy 5mpg onto the fuel economy (but at what retail cost?). In the end they've placed them just far enough apart to minimalise cannibalisation of each others sales.
Being cautious, VW would probably reinforce a few bits of the engine like hardened pistons (that they used to do for R and Cupra 2.0TSI over the standard 200/210PS version - do they still do that?), so not all of the money is going on an extra turbo. Bigger brakes might also be something they add in, and then you might be talking another £1200 over the GTDs list price, would the extra sales be worth the effort or would 95% of the GTDers out there be happy with the standard model?
The 125d is a bit of an anomalie, is anyone else offering bi-turbo in this car size segment? I suppose it's a lot easier to justify the resultant list price on a BMW, even if it is a 1 series.
If VW upped the tech stakes for the GTD and GTI as my suggestions above, you'd be talking a 220PS GTI with 53-55mpg vs a GTD-R with 220PS and 60mpg. With 5mpg in it between them would many buy a GTD over a GTI?
As you say bi-turbo would up the GTD's performance, but for the same money VW could use two or one bigger turbo on the GTI. If you're gonna give one more, surely the other deserves it to.
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The 125d is a bit of an anomalie, is anyone else offering bi-turbo in this car size segment?
Yep there is one you've missed - Vauxhall GTC Coupe CDTi Bi-Turbo :wink:
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Hawaii-Five-O: That model won't stepping on the toes of the performance petrol in the range VXR/260PS. They don't have a mid-high petrol engine that is comparable with the Diesel bi-turbo. I suppose that if there was no "R" model in the offing and the GTI had "R" outtput then we'd be more likely to get a bi-turbo GTD. That said though, the Astra only has 10PS more than the GTD for it's extra turbo.
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The 125d is a bit of an anomalie, is anyone else offering bi-turbo in this car size segment?
Yep there is one you've missed - Vauxhall GTC Coupe CDTi Bi-Turbo :wink:
That car needs more letters and words in its name. There's not nearly enough.
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TBH, if the GTD can get anywhere near the published MPG figures that VW have issued, then I'll be delighted - performance pack or not, I'll be happy with 184ps.
Thing that's worrying me a little (just a little mind), is the reported issues a number of people are having with the economy of the 2.0 150PS engine in the SE and GT spec's, which according to some forums, despite all the weight saving and bluemotion technologies these cars have, seems give worse figures than the outgoing MK6 models with none of the tech.
Secondly, it seems the non PP Gti's brakes are coming in for universal praise as being quite powerful (which will be a VW first on an non R model :laugh:), so the only thing I think I might of got some use from would have been the LSD. With the GTD probably being slightly more nose heavy than the GTI, it might actually have had a more positive effect on this model than the GTI, and perhaps would have prevented the small additional understeer that no doubt the GTD models will have compared to the GTI ?
In any case, so long as the car does as advertised, I'm glad there's no performance pack, as knowing me I'll have added it anyway, and I'm still incurring the wrath of the wife for littering the car with so many options in the first place :grin:
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TBH, if the GTD can get anywhere near the published MPG figures that VW have issued, then I'll be delighted - performance pack or not, I'll be happy with 184ps.
Thing that's worrying me a little (just a little mind), is the reported issues a number of people are having with the economy of the 2.0 150PS engine in the SE and GT spec's, which according to some forums, despite all the weight saving and bluemotion technologies these cars have, seems give worse figures than the outgoing MK6 models with none of the tech.
Secondly, it seems the non PP Gti's brakes are coming in for universal praise as being quite powerful (which will be a VW first on an non R model :laugh:), so the only thing I think I might of got some use from would have been the LSD. With the GTD probably being slightly more nose heavy than the GTI, it might actually have had a more positive effect on this model than the GTI, and perhaps would have prevented the small additional understeer that no doubt the GTD models will have compared to the GTI ?
In any case, so long as the car does as advertised, I'm glad there's no performance pack, as knowing me I'll have added it anyway, and I'm still incurring the wrath of the wife for littering the car with so many options in the first place :grin:
The mpg doesn't worry me. I had a new a3 for 2 weeks with the 150 Diesel engine and it always did over 50mpg being driven hard everywhere. That was with 2k miles on the clock.
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I'm currently getting about 51mpg on my 170TDI scirocco around the doors (on a 12 mile commute on mixed roads and not sparing the horses) and I expect to get at least 57mpg when I go down the A19 tomorrow (vs 53.3mpg published combined figures). With that in mind i'm expecting to routinely crack 60mpg in the GTD on my commute and 65-70mpg on a motorway journey. I do wonder whether the ADC is braking a lot for these 150TDI cars with the poor mpg.
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I do wonder whether the ADC is braking a lot for these 150TDI cars with the poor mpg.
That is probably very true. I know I can get much more MPG without cruise control than with it.
Reading the road ahead is much more advantageous than going at the exact same speed.
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Good point about the ADC chaps. Look, if I average 45-50mpg in a 184ps hatch I'll be like a pig in muck, 60mpg, well - that would be incredible.
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My old Mk5 TDI 140PS used to regularly do 50mpg (well it was actually 49 but 50 sounds better). So, I'll be well chuffed if the new GTD does 60 mpg which I think it will once run in (and on a motorway run).
Gotta get my bloody hands on one first :wink:
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I think they'd have a lot of buyers if it didn't add more than a grand onto GTDs list price. How much would that trample on GTIs sales? Quite a bit I would imagine, only the ardent diesel hater wouldn't consider it over a GTI still at 220PS.
Why would that be a bad thing? As long as people are buying their products it doesn't matter to VW if they are buying up!s or Phaetons, let alone GTI/Ds.
If a more powerfull GTD did take new sales away from GTI's, surely that would reinforce used values of the petrol cars as there would be less to choose from?
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dubber36:Less to choose from would only reinforce prices if desirability was still there. If you cut desirability then you also cut demand. If you had a 220PS GTD next to a 220PS GTI at about the same pricepoint there'd be far less demand for the GTI when you can have all of the power and 23% better economy. There are far less BMW 320i on the road than 320d, but a BMW dealership is still hard pushed to sell a nearly new example of a 320i for 90% of what he can sell a 320d for.
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The thing is though that the arguments for going for diesel are getting less and less.
Modern turbo petrols have similar torque levels as their diesel equivalents and the MPG of petrols has improved as well.
Doing 12000 miles a year with a petrol doing 35mpg and a diesel doing 45mpg you would save about £30 a month but with the petrol doing 45mpg and the diesel doing 55mpg you are only saving £15.
So unless you really are struggling for cash each month it is hard to understand why anyone would buy a GTD.
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Mike: It's not just the fuel - residuals are higher too, tiny tax disc to pay for etc. I'll save a grand a year with a GTD over a GTI. That car will cost me £6500 to own, tax and fuel vs £7500 for the GTI. Not massive in percentage terms, but that's a couple of nice city breaks in Europe a year I can do for a car that is nigh on the same to drive (legally on public roads). Diesels have better residuals mainly due to engines having greater longevity and better economy and with a GTD coming in cheaper than a GTI in the first place for the same equipment.
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The thing is though that the arguments for going for diesel are getting less and less.
Modern turbo petrols have similar torque levels as their diesel equivalents and the MPG of petrols has improved as well.
Doing 12000 miles a year with a petrol doing 35mpg and a diesel doing 45mpg you would save about £30 a month but with the petrol doing 45mpg and the diesel doing 55mpg you are only saving £15.
So unless you really are struggling for cash each month it is hard to understand why anyone would buy a GTD.
If you put the official mpg figures into one of these diesel v petrol comparisons due to the fact it's cheaper to buy the diesel will always come out on top.
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Mike: It's not just the fuel - residuals are higher too, tiny tax disc to pay for etc. I'll save a grand a year with a GTD over a GTI. That car will cost me £6500 to own, tax and fuel vs £7500 for the GTI.
I suppose everyone has different circumstances and what works out best for some works out worse for others.
Looking at Pistonheads classifieds, 2010 GTIs in general are fetching about £500-£1000 more than GTDs so I think residuals are pretty much equivalent. I still managed 50% retained on my 5 year old GTI when I chopped it in for the MK6.
One thing is certain and that is both cars are excellent buys and I am sure you are very excited about getting your new one.
For me I will hold on to the GTI for another two years and then my choice will be, another GTI or Golf R :evil:
Hopefully by then they will have sorted the ordering fiasco out.. :rolleyes:
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Looking at Pistonheads classifieds, 2010 GTIs in general are fetching about £500-£1000 more than GTDs so I think residuals are pretty much equivalent. I still managed 50% retained on my 5 year old GTI when I chopped it in for the MK6.
Asking and fetching are 2 different things. According to the used car guides (Parkers and Glass') the GTD holds about 2% more and was cheaper to buy in the first place. Even so, 50% retained on a 5 year car is exceptional.