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General => General discussion => Topic started by: golf-sib on 25 February 2013, 19:04
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Got fined, last tuesday for littering a cigerette butt. But I am happy to admit liability but extremely unhappy how these a$$holes treated me. My fine came today. Basically, I was near work (I work at a court, oh the irony), when someone shouted, I looked behind with a work collegue and continued walking as it was no one we recognised, after about 10 meters I'm grabbed and pulled by my shoulder by this moron in a visiabilty jacket. I said
"look I'll go back and pick it up"
He asked for ID, which I stupidly gave him. What followed was me going:
"so is it a warning?"
The response i got was
"As you have given me your details, you have admitted to the crime and I can no longer issue you with a warning, had you gone back and picked it up you would of not got the fine or just a warning"
Even though I offered to go pick it up! Now I'm pi$$ed off as, okay I did it, but one there was no need to grab and pull me, as I wasn't running away just oblivious to some guy 200m away in a visability jacker with Greenwich council written on it (not a PC or PCSO), secondly as far as I can see it, it was entrapment. I sadly work on the civil side of the law so I can't get any good tips or advice at work. Thirdly, the fine is addressed to MR Alex XXXXX, where XXXXX is my middle name and not my surname.
Any tips or advice are appreciated, I'm not worried about the fine as yes I littered, I'm pi$$ed off with the way I was handled.
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You could try your luck and claim that you didn't receive the fine, as technically it is not actually addressed to you :grin:
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you work in a COURT and are asking for legal advice on a car forum :laugh: :grin:
my advice
(http://soaponarope.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/MBPfragrancefreesoar1.jpg)
:smiley:
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You could try your luck and claim that you didn't receive the fine, as technically it is not actually addressed to you :grin:
Technically I don't have a middle name, my passport no longer shows my middle name, but my driving license does, even though I no longer have it and it was dropped a long time ago. So I could send them proof of my passport where the first names match but the last names don't.
Chuff, I work on Civil law, marriage, evictions, small claims court etc... this is a Criminal offence. I use to know a few police officers on the criminal side that were liaison officers in the magistrates but they have now left.
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You could try your luck and claim that you didn't receive the fine, as technically it is not actually addressed to you :grin:
this.
but im sure he took your address, postcode, d-o-b etc... so doubt you'd get away with it.
the bloke had no right to touch you, and that is actually assault, so you could press charges, if you are THAT upset about it.
no offence, but you do deserve the fine. littering is littering. i used to smoke and never dropped butts.
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You could try your luck and claim that you didn't receive the fine, as technically it is not actually addressed to you :grin:
this.
but im sure he took your address, postcode, d-o-b etc... so doubt you'd get away with it.
the bloke had no right to touch you, and that is actually assault, so you could press charges, if you are THAT upset about it.
no offence, but you do deserve the fine. littering is littering. i used to smoke and never dropped butts.
Not disputing I didn't do it, but I'm pi$$ed with how its handled, the funny thing is, I always use to put my butts in the bin and make an effort except for this once and I got caught out, what annoys me, I would be walking to the station, put my butt out and bin it and I would see these wardens in groups of 4, with kids 10m away littering and 5m away a group of guys at the pub dropping their butts and guess what they would run up to a woman or a man on his own or in a pair and fine them even though far worse is going on. They target the vulnerable rather than the actual criminals, who spit and litter on every occasion. If anything I've lost faith, next time I see vandalism, fly tipping, littering or spitting I won't make an effort to report or aid the authorities.
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Suck it up and move on...
Thom
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Oh the apathy on here...no one can be ar$ed to challenge anything. Is it any wonder why the country is funked beyond repair :grin:
I'd firstly lodge a formal complaint in writing to the Council involved. You have to ensure that your colleague is prepared to be witness of you being grabbed. It may not get you anywhere in the sense of the fine, BUT will deal with the element that you are saying you are angered by, which is the manner in which you were accosted. THIS is the element that you need to stick you in your letter, along with the details of the Council employee who dealt with you. The reference from the Court will be held at the Council end and they will be able to correspond with who dealt with you on the street. And suck up the fine as its grim in this country with the amount of lazy barstewards who can't be bothered to move an extra 10 feet to put something in to the receptacle :laugh: provided
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Oh the apathy on here...no one can be ar$ed to challenge anything. Is it any wonder why the country is funked beyond repair :grin:
No the problem with the country is people not wanting to take responsibility for their actions.
Not aimed at OP as they have already indicated they knew they were guilty for littering.
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ap·a·thy (p-th)
n.
1. Lack of interest or concern, especially regarding matters of general importance or appeal; indifference.
2. Lack of emotion or feeling; impassiveness.
[Latin apatha, from Greek apatheia, from apaths, without feeling : a-, without; see a-1 + pathos, feeling; see kwent(h)- in Indo-European roots.]
It still applies and I was talking wider than this post :wink:
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I think Elvi posted a while ago that even if one little detail is wrong it's void.
So that could be Name, address, reg etc. If they're wrong then you don't need to pay!
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I'm happy to pay it, but I went by dTEA's advice as I had a rough idea of what I wanted to write.
Lets see what these clowns respond with as I don't take it bent over with Vaseline :grin:
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i'm not gonna lie i'm a bit of a letter writer myself. I know how tempting it is to state your opinion and be sarcastic and what not; but for what its worth i'd suggest leaving out anything that isn't a fact and not strictly necessary, it will get you a lot further imo.
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i'm not gonna lie i'm a bit of a letter writer myself. I know how tempting it is to state your opinion and be sarcastic and what not; but for what its worth i'd suggest leaving out anything that isn't a fact and not strictly necessary, it will get you a lot further imo.
:grin: :grin: :grin: You sound like the Judges at work, they gave the same advice, but sadly I cannot help it.
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I'd be happy to proof read your letter for you mate, and amend it as i see fit. give you a chance to sleep on it too. just an offer.
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I'd be happy to proof read your letter for you mate, and amend it as i see fit. give you a chance to sleep on it too. just an offer.
If you wouldn't mind, but I've already sent it, however it may be useful for others, as regarding littering PCN's there's alot regarding cars but nothing for public footpaths and reading the laws regarding the footpaths its not very clear even with DEFRA's guidelines to council's. However with car's there's alot of clauses and people being wrongly convicted, but no advice or tips for being pulled by these wardens (clowns) apart from you can deny everything and not tell them anything, followed by just walking away, which I wish I had done as they cannot do anything unless you cooperate, which is why they act pushy and forceful.
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I'd be happy to proof read your letter for you mate, and amend it as i see fit. give you a chance to sleep on it too. just an offer.
If you wouldn't mind, but I've already sent it, however it may be useful for others, as regarding littering PCN's there's alot regarding cars but nothing for public footpaths and reading the laws regarding the footpaths its not very clear even with DEFRA's guidelines to council's. However with car's there's alot of clauses and people being wrongly convicted, but no advice or tips for being pulled by these wardens (clowns) apart from you can deny everything and not tell them anything, followed by just walking away, which I wish I had done as they cannot do anything unless you cooperate, which is why they act pushy and forceful.
hindsight's a fine thing as they say! lesson learnt eh? next time you know to just laugh in their face and if they touch you, politely inform them that it constitutes assault. boom.
i'm sure your letter will be fine, its not like they can reply with a similar tone. good luck mate!
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Cheers, will let you know what they respond with, its times like this, that the superhero mr hindsight from southpark would of helped
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If you are gonna write a letter, I'll be honest I CBA to read as its too long!! And most others would do the same. Short factual and where possible bulletpoints in order keep attention and have greater impact than waffle.
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This all could have been avoided if you just didn't smoke. :lipsrsealed:
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This all could have been avoided if you just didn't smoke. :lipsrsealed:
Sorry to break it to you shady, master chief smokes too
(http://th02.deviantart.net/fs45/150/f/2009/101/6/b/Smoking_Master_Chief_by_ze_hyper1.png)
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This all could have been avoided if you just didn't smoke. :lipsrsealed:
Sorry to break it to you shady, master chief smokes too
(http://th02.deviantart.net/fs45/150/f/2009/101/6/b/Smoking_Master_Chief_by_ze_hyper1.png)
Nooooooooooo!
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This all could have been avoided if you just didn't smoke. :lipsrsealed:
Sorry to break it to you shady, master chief smokes too
(http://th02.deviantart.net/fs45/150/f/2009/101/6/b/Smoking_Master_Chief_by_ze_hyper1.png)
Nooooooooooo!
I know, I was like ohhhhh maaaaa gawd..... what brands he smoking?
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i couldnt resist. i do love a good letter hahaha...
To whom it may concern,
I wish to raise a formal complaint regarding two Greenwich Council Employees with whom I had the utter displeasure of crossing paths last week.
On the 19th of February 2013 at around 2:45pm, myself and a colleague were walking on the pedestrian footpath along Powis Street, when out of nowhere my left shoulder was grabbed and wrenched backwards very nearly forcing me off my feet. Upon re-establishing my footing, I turned around expecting to be faced with a drunken lout or maybe even a would be mugger. I was completely shocked to in fact be faced with a Greenwich Council Uniform, a Greenwich Council Identification badge and an incredibly angry and quite intimidating face.
This man's name is XXXXXX and he was shortly followed by his colleague XXXXXX.
Mr. XXXX did not identify himself, nor did he apologise for his aggressive attack. he simply declared i had been stopped for littering.
I feel Mr. XXX's handling of the situation was incredibly un-professional and somewhat intimidating. would he have acted in the same fashion with an 80 year old pensioner? or a child perhaps?
I'd like to take this opportunity to bring to your attention that Mr. XXXX actions at this point had already constituted criminal assault.
Although a little frightened and very bemused, I remained calm, did not attempt to run and only acted in a civil manner. I realised that Mr. XXX must have been referring to a cigarette butt that I had in fact dropped a few moments earlier, so I offered to go back, pick it up and dispose of it correctly.
Mr. XXXX ignored my offer and demanded to see my Identification, which i produced and handed to him. I was quite worried as i have never been in this kind of predicament before so I then asked if i was to receive a warning.
Mr. XXX told me that he was under no obligation to NOT issue me a fine as i had admitted fault and given him my personal details. his language was somewhat more colourful than i have described, and his attitude very terse and smug. My ears immediately rang with 'entrapment'.
I found Mr. XXX's attitude and lack of manners quite disgusting. His actions were not those of a man trying to enforce the law and make the borough of Greenwich a cleaner and safer place. I conclude that he is nothing more than a small minded, cowardly bully.
Does Greenwich council encourage this sort of behaviour and form of law enforcement?
The incident occurred on the 19th February, the letter and fine produced on the 21st February, but not received until the 25th. this leaves me four days before i have to pay the higher rate fine and therefore not much time to action a dispute. This to me seems like an underhand tactic to force me into paying.
why isn't the fine issued on the spot? perhaps a method in which your wardens can avoid being identified?
Had the situation been dealt with in a professional and courteous manner, i would pay the fine immediately and think nothing more of it. As i was treated so poorly, i think i deserve exemption in this case; a reduction of the fine and a written apology from Mr.XXX at the very least.
In summary, i am very unhappy with Greenwich council. Mr XXX is a civil servant, and in his respective role acts as an agent for the council. I demand this situation be investigated and i expect a speedy response. Should i feel your response is inadequate i may well consider contacting the police with respect to my rights regarding physical assault.
Regards
Mr XXXXX XXXXX
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Very nice, I will be contacting you for future letter, hopefully not ever again or any time soon :grin:
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Haaa if I was you I would be more pissed I got caught LOL!
If I get paid catching butt throwing litter bugs, I would have given you a warning and sent a fine anyways on top
Don’t give a sh!te (Sh-ite)
1. Lack of interest or concern, especially regarding matters of general importance or appeal; indifference.
2. Lack of emotion or feeling; impassiveness.
Latin: Excrutionem fit!!!! :kiss:
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Haaa if I was you I would be more pissed I got caught LOL!
If I get paid catching butt throwing litter bugs, I would have given you a warning and sent a fine anyways on top
Don’t give a sh!te (Sh-ite)
1. Lack of interest or concern, especially regarding matters of general importance or appeal; indifference.
2. Lack of emotion or feeling; impassiveness.
Latin: Excrutionem fit!!!! :kiss:
Oh Jay, thats the kind of stuff I could put in my w@nk bank :wink: :kiss:
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This man's name is XXXXXX and he was shortly followed by his colleague XXXXXX.
If you got his name wrong could they just ignore your letter? :tongue:
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This man's name is XXXXXX and he was shortly followed by his colleague XXXXXX.
If you got his name wrong could they just ignore your letter? :tongue:
Possibly... but they were identical twins that shared the same name, you see :grin: :grin: :grin:
Or as my work colleague said, why didn't you do what I do in these types of situations, offer him a blowjob, it usually works like a charm :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
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I don't see the problem here.
You littered, someone pulled you up on it.
Pay the fine, move on and don't litter again. I think the council rep was well within his rights to grab you.
Everyone in this country has gone soft. Your ego is bruised, not your shoulder.
... but maybe I'm biased, smokers arrogance pisses me off, they all stink and litter without recourse.
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I don't see the problem here.
You littered, someone pulled you up on it.
Pay the fine, move on and don't litter again. I think the council rep was well within his rights to grab you.
Everyone in this country has gone soft. Your ego is bruised, not your shoulder.
... but maybe I'm biased, smokers arrogance pisses me off, they all stink and litter without recourse.
i love this guy ^ always blunt and straight to the point!
you're right of course.
but we all know that you put your average imbecile in a high vis and he's over-whelmed by delusions of grandeur! we've all encountered these 'big men' and 'jobs worth's'. if he'd have treated Sib with a bit of respect then he wouldn't have a leg to stand on and no point to argue.
personally, if i can get out of paying something i will. I've saved sh!t loads of dough over the years, just from the odd simple letter. i do love a letter.
don't hate the player, hate the game.
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The point always was, I was happy to take liability, I have paid the fine and I'm happy to pay it, problem are the jobdworths that think they have power beyond the law, its not Germany where the police are the law, its the UK where police abide by the law.
When I paid the fine, the gentleman said they get a lot of people in a similar boat that say the wardens are well over their heads and they want to complain, but he says out of everyone who says they want to complain, about 2% do.
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daaah mate, can't believe you paid it! thought you was gonna take it all the way! lol
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daaah mate, can't believe you paid it! thought you was gonna take it all the way! lol
I don't think they would of waivered it and legally I don't think I would of got away with it and cba with the magestrates as they are idiots at the best of times, someone who done the lesser crime gets a hefty amount, yet the serious crime gets a slap and again fines are based on income and if it fails I loose more money and possibly my job.. use to work their :lipsrsealed: My problem was always the warden.
But I'm still taking it to congress! :grin:
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personally, if i can get out of paying something i will. i do love a letter.
Oh, ditto definitely :)
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I read that these council officials can ask for ID and you must supply it, otherwise you are breaking the law, and you can be fined..
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I read that these council officials can ask for ID and you must supply it, otherwise you are breaking the law, and you can be fined..
how if you don't supply it :whistle:
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I read that these council officials can ask for ID and you must supply it, otherwise you are breaking the law, and you can be fined..
how if you don't supply it :whistle:
This is what i thought, but there is a law that has been passed making it an offence to refuse to give details. I don't know if they can hold you until a police officer arrives...
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I read that these council officials can ask for ID and you must supply it, otherwise you are breaking the law, and you can be fined..
how if you don't supply it :whistle:
This is what i thought, but there is a law that has been passed making it an offence to refuse to give details. I don't know if they can hold you until a police officer arrives...
sh!t i'd like to see them try. they certainly aren't allowed to search you, so this would make it pretty difficult for them to identify you...
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Yes, refusing them is against the law, but they cannot do anything, they touch you and they face assault charges, they can try and perform a citizens arrest but that's beyond pointless and denying you of rights, deny of rights is an offence in its own right too.
So all they can do is call for police back up, my experience from police is they will turn up way too late even if they are expecting the person to be at a place at a set time. So really all they can do is report you to the police if you walk away and as we know police won't waste their time for something like this, as it will be a rough description of yourself for something petty and no other information.
Your only really screwed if police are around at the time one of these wardens approaches you. Which is my understanding from all this.
I'm still waiting for my complaint letter to be answered too, apparently it usually takes around 15days and they have acknowledged receipt of the complaint.
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didn't he grab you by the shoulder and pull you back?
is this not assault? he is not a police officer. what are the laws regarding this?
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1. Too long. 1-2 paragraphs max and bullet point the important bit. I've had to deal with complaint letters and the longer they are, the more likely I am to skim-read the thing and then throw it in the bin.
2. If it was assault, surely you should have reported him ASAP? If a copper punched you in the face, would you wait xx days before reporting it?
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put your sh!t in the bin in future.
his interaction with you occurred as a result of your actions,
you admitted he must have tried to verbally get your attention, and that he was wearing a high vis jacket.
at the end of the day, "the moron in the high vis" probably followed all necessary attempts to get your attention, some people just have a job to do, we all like a salary.
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is this not assault?
No its not - least maybe not in my eyes. Our backwards laws may differ.
At the end of the day, all the complaining about people doing something as simple as touching you to get your attention is the same reason that police can't touch criminals, people can't defend themselves against burglars, teachers can't discipline children. etc.etc.etc.
Just mosy on and put your crap in the bin next time - there's plenty of them.
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do you actualy have to carry ID ?
i allways say i havent got any on me if ever asked ( unless its for beer )