GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk3 => Topic started by: ttelracs on 11 February 2013, 22:21
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Need I say more.
Tried to remove to change wheel bearings on the rear drivers side only to find someone else had either tried and failed and rounded the bolts OR tried and succeeded, but put it back together badly AND rounded the bolts.
Failed with the impact wrench, freeze ya nuts off, gas torch, drilling through and finally hitting it several times with a heavyweight hammer. No joy.
I then decided to get the angle grinder out and grind of the lower bolt and then trying to hammering it a bit to allow the disc to come off. In the end I simply used the angle grinder to cut out a segment of the disc to remove it allowing me better access to the carrier bolts.
Have also invested in titanium drill bits which I appear to have burnt out trying to drill these out with the vague notion of retapping it and using some new M8 bolts.
Starting to think I should have just paid the garage the £ 280 I was quoted !
It's only taken me five days of sheer frustration and I know I still have the other side yet.
ARGH... and just as I was getting it to run nicely too.
I'll buy some more drill bits tomorrow and try again. Looking in the forums, maybe I should have bought some Stilsons or a whole rear beam,
I forgot to mention, when I started I couldn't find the locking bolt key and so spent half the day hammering and damaging sockets before buying an impact one from Halfauds.
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I understand your frustration and before I had to buy a full set of bolt grippers I was doing the same thing... mine were over £100 for a range of sizes but if you can get a small set:
http://www.tooled-up.com/product/irwin-bolt-grip-fastener-remover-expansion-set-394002/121815/?Referrer=googleproductlisting&gclid=CMH07seor7UCFczHtAodzhAA1g
You hammer it onto the bolt head and with a big bar just undo. Its designed to grip the bolt head from the outside and has always worked for me.
And to make yourself feel better, I don't know what garage you got the quote from (£280 for rear brakes and bearings?!!! - Must have been other stuff right?!) When faced with the same situation you have they might have turned around and said they need an extra hour to get the bolts out, meaning more money from you...
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Took 9 hours to do mine, ended up welding a bolt into the rounded Allen head...the other side took a couple of hours...
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Just like any normal bolt on mine easy job.
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These are always cvnts to undo. Irwin bolt extractors are your friends.
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Jeeez what garage do you go to for that price??!!
And jeeez 5 days that's painfull......
Probably find your extractor drills burnt out because you had them on to high speed an no lubricant,
Irwin extractors to grind two flat edges clamp on, stilsons or a good quality set of mole grips, heat up an away you go
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I'd like to see you get a grinder on the upper carrier bolt.
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You could grind the top carrier bolt out with a die grinder, eg. a Dremel.
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Ok, maybe with a die grinder and with the back box removed and on a proper ramp...
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I always give them plenty of plusgas a few days before attemping removal..... maybe too late for you now but it's worth a try (next time!!)
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No just unbolt the rear shocks and let the beam hang down. Plenty of room.
I coat mine in plus gas day and night for couple of days before I remove them. Spray the head of bolt and in the beam itself.
Then I use a 2ft breaker bar with a socket allenkey
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When you go to put it back together, replace the bolts with A4 stainless cap screws (M10x1.25x20) :wink:
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When you go to put it back together, replace the bolts with A4 stainless cap screws (M10x1.25x20) :wink:
So you suggest replacing hi tensile steel cap screws with unknown strength stainless (of which many are soft as hell) on braking components?
Erm...I wouldn't.
Those bolts are 10.9/12.8 strength for a reason.
If you can get hold of 10.9/12.8 stainless bolts, then fine...if not, it's stupid and dangerous to fit stainless bolts.
As far as I'm aware, most A2/A4 stainless bolts are around 8.8 strength.
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Exactoh, most stainless bolts are soft as butter.
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I forgot to add; A4-100 :kiss:
These are the same tensile strength as 10.9 carbon steel with a very slightly lower yield point.
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I would not use or trust stainless bolts on the brakes myself, they tend to be really soft.
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We used SS bolts to secure many tonnes of stone to buildings! So SS bolts are not very much less strong than mild steel.
They do tend to relax a little so not really the best for brakes.
Mind you SS bolts are used extensively in some Custum Cars.
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I always grind the bolt heads flat, once the discs are off you can remove the remainder of the bolt
Much easer
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I went to my local hardwear shop to get stainless replacements but the only thing they had with the same strength was a very similar bolt, just longer.
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Thanks all for your suggestions. With that wonderful gift of hindsight I would have gone with the Irwin bolt grip method methinks. If I have no joy finally drilling out these bolts, I'll go that route for the upper bolt and I'll stay away from the stainless steel bolts and source some high tensile replacements.
Thanks again and I'll update on my progress...
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OK, final attempt earlier this evening before reaching for can of petrol and matches and got it off. Once off I realised that I had only drilled though half of each bolt and it was rusted itself to the stub axle, but it's off now. I will need to get some high tensile bolts before reassembling though and use loctite to secure them as by all accounts the stainless steel ones I have will not be strong enough !
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The bolts are £2.56 each from VW iirc :)
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We used SS bolts to secure many tonnes of stone to buildings! So SS bolts are not very much less strong than mild steel.
They do tend to relax a little so not really the best for brakes.
Mind you SS bolts are used extensively in some Custum Cars.
That's a sweeping statement, right there.
Bolts are graded for strength.
All bolts.
You can get hi tensile stainless...and even titanium bolts.
And you can get cheap-ass ebay toffee strength bolts of unknown strength.
Rear calliper carriers are at least 10.9...maybe even 12.8. That's for a reason.
There tends not to be too much of a lever moment on tonnes of stone hanging off buildings...the stone tends to remain where you put it!
Brakes carry leverage loads and suffer heat cycling.
I would have no issues running stainless bolts if they are high tensile...but every brake securing bolt I've seen had been high tensile for a reason...and it's a brave man who would risk unknown bolts on the thing that stops you!
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That's a sweeping statement, right there.
Bolts are graded for strength.
All bolts.
You can get hi tensile stainless...and even titanium bolts.
And you can get cheap-ass ebay toffee strength bolts of unknown strength.
Rear calliper carriers are at least 10.9...maybe even 12.8. That's for a reason.
There tends not to be too much of a lever moment on tonnes of stone hanging off buildings...the stone tends to remain where you put it!
Brakes carry leverage loads and suffer heat cycling.
I would have no issues running stainless bolts if they are high tensile...but every brake securing bolt I've seen had been high tensile for a reason...and it's a brave man who would risk unknown bolts on the thing that stops you!
^^Sound advice, genuine bolts are not that expensive why risk it.
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We used SS bolts to secure many tonnes of stone to buildings! So SS bolts are not very much less strong than mild steel.
They do tend to relax a little so not really the best for brakes.
Mind you SS bolts are used extensively in some Custum Cars.
That's a sweeping statement, right there.
Bolts are graded for strength.
All bolts.
You can get hi tensile stainless...and even titanium bolts.
And you can get cheap-ass ebay toffee strength bolts of unknown strength.
Rear calliper carriers are at least 10.9...maybe even 12.8. That's for a reason.
There tends not to be too much of a lever moment on tonnes of stone hanging off buildings...the stone tends to remain where you put it!
Brakes carry leverage loads and suffer heat cycling.
I would have no issues running stainless bolts if they are high tensile...but every brake securing bolt I've seen had been high tensile for a reason...and it's a brave man who would risk unknown bolts on the thing that stops you!
Obviously know nothing about stonework and modern buildings!
Try looking up sometimes!
Quite often the biggest stones and the cornices at the top of the building and they project quite a bit!
I could go dig out pull-out tests and bolt shear tests but I cant be arsed and would mean nothing to folk on here anyway.
So it wasnt such a sweeping statement was it! :rolleyes:
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There shouldn't be this assumption that stainless is weaker or in any way inferior. Provided that the specification matches that of the bolt it is replacing, it can even be a better alternative due to the corrosion resistance, cost aside. As long as you don't go buying any old dodgy ebay bolt and hope it works, much the same risk you wouldn't take when buying a carbon steel item, there shouldn't be a problem.
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Obviously know nothing about stonework and modern buildings!
Try looking up sometimes!
Quite often the biggest stones and the cornices at the top of the building and they project quite a bit!
I could go dig out pull-out tests and bolt shear tests but I cant be arsed and would mean nothing to folk on here anyway.
So it wasnt such a sweeping statement was it! :rolleyes:
I know enough about buildings to know there aren't the forces applied using rotational leverage, as buildings don't tend to spin at 1000s or RPM and need stopping in a hurry.
Not in my world anyway.
Nor do they heat cycle like car brakes.
Again, not in my world.
But then again, if I looked up...I may notice that.
Then again...I doubt it.
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should i put the aircraft industry spin to this aswell . . . . . . :whistle:
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should i put the aircraft industry spin to this aswell . . . . . . :whistle:
Go on then chuff. :rolleyes: :grin:
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May as well :grin:
When I put still up we would use 20, 24mm 8.2 bolts to hold up one 3000kg I beam. I little 200kg beam would have 8, 20mm 8.2 bolts
What are the forces on the rear brake bolts you think?
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What are the forces on the rear brake bolts you think?
Lots, think of the torque applied against the caliper when the brakes are used.
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What are the forces on the rear brake bolts you think?
Lots, think of the torque applied against the caliper when the brakes are used.
:grin: I know its lots lol I was thinking more of a figure. Surely someone has worked it out. Grip will be biggest factor, due to weather condition, temperature, surface and tyre, then different weights too.
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TBH does it really all matter.
If theres XYZ bolt there, instead of getting technical, put an XYZ bolt back!
They aren't expensive from TPS or a bolt shop. Get the highest tensile you require.
TBH if it failed on an emergency stop the first time and the bolts went it would still stop as it would just hit the carrier. Dangerous thing would be you wouldn't notice til the second stop!
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Or the caliper jamming the wheel up.
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May as well :grin:
When I put still up we would use 20, 24mm 8.2 bolts to hold up one 3000kg I beam. I little 200kg beam would have 8, 20mm 8.2 bolts
What are the forces on the rear brake bolts you think?
I hear you...but there is a big difference between the clamping torque of a 24mm metric coarse bolt and a 10mm metric fine bolt.
The bolts are M10fine high strength for a reason.
The static load is very little - the weight of the calliper, carrier and pads...the loading under full braking is huge though.
Bottom line, in my view, is that you never knowingly fit a weaker bolt...especially on a braking system.
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Bottom line, in my view, is that you never knowingly fit a weaker bolt...especially on a braking system.
/thread
Get it, thread.... :laugh:
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I got some high tensile bolts, right length, pitch and with a hex nut instead of a allen key end, so easier to work with and invested in loctite too. Inserted the bearings front and back into the disc and added the rubber bush, all good. Then the disc would not slip onto the stub axle and on looking closely there is a lip where the bush and collapsed and worn a slight groove all the way round it. It's scrap.
Sourced one from a chap scrapping one so not too bad or so I thought, but I couldn't remove the bolts securing the stub axle. Was prepared to soak in WD40 and use the blowtorch to heat up when I was offered a complete rear beam unit which had been polybushed too. With a bit of luck it should be here later this evening and then I'll attempt to fit it over the next couple of nights !
What seemed like worn rear pads has turned out to be a complete pain.
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Managed to get both bolts holding the rear beam loosened and nuts of nice and easy through using a wire brush on them first and then WD 40 overnight.
Handbrake cables removed no problem and just the two 11mm nuts on the brake lines near the beam to be undone. Would have carried on through the night but it is now absolutely freezing and my hands were getting a bit stiff so stopped before I made a mistake.
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Brake pipes loosened and off, tight but WD40 again prior to attempting to remove and rear beam off. Had to grind the old bolt out of the mounting bracket to allow fitting off rear beam but sorted now.
Struggling to line up the new beam with the Powerflex bushes though, but it is bloody freezing and now gone 21:30 and may need two more jacks and one more body. Will try again in the morning but any tips on fitting by one person greatly received.
Thinking of using a couple of metal plates to help guide in the bushes as all greased up now.
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The rear beam is on. Then wiggled it around until I got one side in and used the bolt from holding the shock absorber to the beam to keep it in place.
Then did the same on the on the other side but shaved of a small amount at the top of the polybush to allow it to slide up into the mounting bracket. All I had to do then was to lie on my back and kick the back of the beam until it lined up and then inserted the mounting bolt. Just need to bleed the brakes and check all good.
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Hooray...someone who CAN be arsed to fix their car for a change.....
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Thanks mate !
Very satisfying as it is now done and I am thawing out ! But... one of the flexi brake hoses is leaking under braking which I found when bleeding and will need to be replaced asap. Can't use the ones of my old beam as had to cut them due to not being able to undo the nuts.
On the upside though I now have a set of Mk3 rear calipers and a rear beam to sell, albeit with a scored driver side stub axle !
I'll post in the for sale section
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All sorted.
Brake hose bought and fitted, brakes bled and working so all good. Next job is the blowing downpipe which was blowing ever so slightly at the spring junction part but is now a bit louder since it's been standing for almost 3 weeks ! A continuous round of fixing and fettling.
I LOVE IT !