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General => General discussion => Topic started by: Diamond Hell on 21 January 2013, 23:52
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If you read motorsports-y mags etc you may be familiar with the name Mark Hales - very experienced racer and latterly journalist.
Short story - he organised a 917 Le Mans type replica owned by David Piper to be tested against Nick Mason's Ferrari 512 (similar vintage). A gear-shift was fluffed, the engine was over-revved and it blew. Hales has been taken to court and found liable. It's going to cost him £50k for the engine rebuild, £70kish for his legal costs and £70kish for the other side's legal costs. The magazines involve have allegedly walked away from him. Rumour says he's likely to lose his house.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/classiccars/9808987/You-bend-it-you-mend-it-motoring-journalist-sued-after-1.25m-porsche-engine-explodes.html
Jalopnik's take on it:
http://jalopnik.com/5977720/auto-journalist-sued-for-174000-for-blowing-a-porsche-engine
Some solicitor's put the judgement up here:
http://www.leeds-solicitors.com/piperhales.pdf
Basically no written agreement - you bend it you mend it/you bend it you buy it stuff and it's been tested here.
Personally I think Hales has made an absolute tit of himself and for whatever reason Piper's decided to break him. It's two well-off men having a scrap. Best off leave them be.
I like my cheap toy.
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Seems fair to me...
You break it - You fix it....
Surely the magazine would have insurance to cover the damage...
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You own the car, you lend it out, it gets buzzed, you take the hit, you don't lend it out again if it hurts
Thom
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Seems he lent a £1.25M car out for £2K and was told that it had a full insurance cover from the mag...
Turns out the mag's insurance was "Limited" and then they have walked away from the case... Typical...
And left the driver stranded...
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He'll lose his house? Now, come on, you break you pay, ok fine, but to put a man on the streets? Where's the sense in that? What judge in their right mind would see a man homeless over a car?
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I wish i was a solicitor! Those legal fees are crazy!! :sick:
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would have thought that before driving the tits off a car like that you would check there is adequate insurance :whistle:
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Hales looks stuffed!
Only winners here are the legals
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*sounds of solicitors wringing hands*
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He'll lose his house? Now, come on, you break you pay, ok fine, but to put a man on the streets? Where's the sense in that? What judge in their right mind would see a man homeless over a car?
Law & Sense..... Don't make me laff....
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Don't over rev-it or it will blow up. Over revs and sure enough it explodes. Shut case In my opinion
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but old vintage race engines scan and will explode at any point but if he buzzed the tits off it that would come down to him needing to fix it
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What! No rev limiter on a super car - I'd be very shocked and surprised :shocked:
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What! No rev limiter on a super car - I'd be very shocked and surprised :shocked:
It's not a supercar, its a race engine.
Even so, it's far more likely that he selected the wrong gear and buzzed the engine. Which is why the case didn't go his way. If you are doing 'X' speed and select a gear that is too low, you will buzz the engine, rev limiter or not.
The only person that will ever truly know what went on is the driver.
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Cut the car in half ops wrong thread :rolleyes:
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:laugh:
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i'm still confused as to how they know he over revved the engine? the guy who owned the car has more than enough money to pay for repairs so i feel this is more of a moral issue of a guy who can pay forcing a guy who can't and will probably lose his home because of having to pay.
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i'm still confused as to how they know he over revved the engine? the guy who owned the car has more than enough money to pay for repairs so i feel this is more of a moral issue of a guy who can pay forcing a guy who can't and will probably lose his home because of having to pay.
An on board data logger would have logged engine RPM, gear changes, throttle position etc etc, and where on the track the incident happend! Engine management would most likely have an interchangeable "chip" that would govern throttle RPM, but useless against over revving by missing a gear, or engine braking etc,
Uploading this data to a laptop, will show, and prove exactly what happened...
Thom
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Data logger? Engine Management? Chip? It's a late 60s/early 70s Porsche... :huh:
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Data logger? Engine Management? Chip? It's a late 60s/early 70s Porsche... :huh:
:grin: :grin: All our Historic race cars have it... you need to know what's going on!
Thom
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i'm still confused as to how they know he over revved the engine? the guy who owned the car has more than enough money to pay for repairs so i feel this is more of a moral issue of a guy who can pay forcing a guy who can't and will probably lose his home because of having to pay.
An on board data logger would have logged engine RPM, gear changes, throttle position etc etc, and where on the track the incident happend! Engine management would most likely have an interchangeable "chip" that would govern throttle RPM, but useless against over revving by missing a gear, or engine braking etc,
Uploading this data to a laptop, will show, and prove exactly what happened...
Thom
Thom meant to say the rev counter needle got stuck at 9000RPM just after it blew :tongue:
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This is still rumbling on. There is a fund to donate to Mr Hales' legal costs etc.
Not sure how I feel about that - it's not going to change the precedent of the judgement, which serves as a stake in the ground for further cases of this nature.
As my first post really - the problems of the well-off. :sad:
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My opinion stays the same, if you have an expensive race car, be careful who you lend it to!
:lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed:
Thom
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Or at least make sure the insurance covers all eventualities... :-X :-X
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Feel for the guy. Legal cases are not cheap and I hope he doesn't lose his home. :sad:
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I think the tabloid he was doing this for should help him out, they're a bunch of cnuts for washing their hands of this.
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Agreed with Jay there, should be Contigency plans on insurance. Anyself respecting journalist tabloid would have one! Plus not sure if he was freelance journalist or actually under contract with company?
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Agreed with Jay there, should be Contigency plans on insurance. Anyself respecting journalist tabloid would have one! Plus not sure if he was freelance journalist or actually under contract with company?
I presume thats where the technicalities kick in...covered if a full time employee...limited insurance for freelancers, presuming they have their own cover...and seeing as he does this regularly you would think he did have...or was he driving stuff as complete freelance on his "own" full comprehensive?? :lipsrsealed:
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The main thing this should do is ensure contracts are drawn up for this sort of thing and signed before the event rather than relying on goodwill, which can evaporate very quickly if something goes sh*t-shaped.
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^definitely. But even contracts can go to sh1t. Just means more for lawyers trying to earn their crust if someone wants to defend themselves and sees themselves in the right still
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From what I have read it seems he admitted to fluffing / missing a gearchange but once he found the insurance company was unwilling to help he tried to retract his admission.
I still think it is crazy that it was not running a rev limit, even if it restricted the test a little it would have been safer all round.
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From what I have read it seems he admitted to fluffing / missing a gearchange but once he found the insurance company was unwilling to help he tried to retract his admission.
I still think it is crazy that it was not running a rev limit, even if it restricted the test a little it would have been safer all round.
+1 even if it was my own car, which noone else was going to drive and i knew revving it too high was going to make the gear box/engine sh!t its self therefore making me not want to go near those revs ide still have a limiter on there
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a rev limiter wouldn't have helped in the event of a missed gear change necessarily
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a rev limiter wouldn't have helped in the event of a missed gear change necessarily
Correct, serious lack of understanding on this thread :rolleyes:
A rev limiter, will only work on throttle RPM, and NOT the engine being overdriven, by either missing a gear, or for example, downshifting from 5th, into 2nd, this will "Buzz" an engine, and generally destroys the top end... or worse
All a rev limiter will do, is cut the ignition, at a set RPM, so the engine can't be over revved in normal driving/racing parameters
Thom
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a rev limiter wouldn't have helped in the event of a missed gear change necessarily
Correct, serious lack of understanding on this thread :rolleyes:
A rev limiter, will only work on throttle RPM, and NOT the engine being overdriven, by either missing a gear, or for example, downshifting from 5th, into 2nd, this will "Buzz" an engine, and generally destroys the top end... or worse
All a rev limiter will do, is cut the ignition, at a set RPM, so the engine can't be over revved in normal driving/racing parameters
Thom
just this thread :laugh:
:kiss:
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a rev limiter wouldn't have helped in the event of a missed gear change necessarily
Correct, serious lack of understanding on this thread :rolleyes:
A rev limiter, will only work on throttle RPM, and NOT the engine being overdriven, by either missing a gear, or for example, downshifting from 5th, into 2nd, this will "Buzz" an engine, and generally destroys the top end... or worse
All a rev limiter will do, is cut the ignition, at a set RPM, so the engine can't be over revved in normal driving/racing parameters
Thom
just this thread :laugh:
:kiss:
Just like my kids have selective hearing, I have selective thread reading :grin:
Thom
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a rev limiter wouldn't have helped in the event of a missed gear change necessarily
Correct, serious lack of understanding on this thread :rolleyes:
A rev limiter, will only work on throttle RPM, and NOT the engine being overdriven, by either missing a gear, or for example, downshifting from 5th, into 2nd, this will "Buzz" an engine, and generally destroys the top end... or worse
All a rev limiter will do, is cut the ignition, at a set RPM, so the engine can't be over revved in normal driving/racing parameters
Thom
just this thread :laugh:
:kiss:
Just like my kids have selective hearing, I have selective thread reading :grin:
Thom
did someone say summat :whistle: