GolfGTIforum.co.uk
General => General discussion => Topic started by: HerbieBunnet on 30 December 2012, 12:32
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Hi, anyone completed a naturally aspirated 2.0gti turbo conversion, don't mean motor swap, but fitting turbo to the standard motor. Not a stranger to force feeding as got two large oil cooled suzuki bike turbo projects on go at moment, can fab alloy and stainless as required, any pifalls? suitability of motor? etc etc :smiley:
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Have a read of this mate. I'm assuming you mean from a mk3 valver, rather than mk3/4 2.0 8v anyway.
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=185087.0
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sorry mate, forgot to say, its a mk4 8 valve, 2001 relatively low miles and good sound motor. :grin:
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Honestly not worth mate. You can get a low milage 1.8t with remap and in sound condition for less than 2k now, and you could spend more than twice that to achieve the same output on an 8v. Seriously not worth it.
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Don't even waste your time!! Sadly the 2.0 8v is pish!! Doesn't deserve a gti badge
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Ah good, even more reason to pursue the conversion, does anyone know if the manifold and turbo unit from a 1.8t fits the 2.0 head then, i don't want to sell my wee baby,a s i'm passionately in love with it, it makes me smile every time i look at it, drive it and talk about it, would break my heart to part with it as we have a bit of history, ye ken, its only 8v and 115bhp. would hardly describe it as pish but do admit it needs a bit more go. :grin: :laugh:
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It's not just slow they are know for reliability issues, including burning a lot of oil and are known as the worse engine vw has ever made....
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Surly a 1.8t would make you smile more everytime you drove it, talked about it and even if you did turbo the 2.0 it would just blow up in no time as the 2.0 8v block wouldn't hold the power?
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Ah good, even more reason to pursue the conversion, does anyone know if the manifold and turbo unit from a 1.8t fits the 2.0 head then, i don't want to sell my wee baby,a s i'm passionately in love with it, it makes me smile every time i look at it, drive it and talk about it, would break my heart to part with it as we have a bit of history, ye ken, its only 8v and 115bhp. would hardly describe it as pish but do admit it needs a bit more go. :grin: :laugh:
You can get about 160/70 reliable bhp from a turbo 8v and lot of torque, can get more but it comes at a price.
Popular conversion in the states with the cross flow engine and kits are available on line, not sure if you can swap the cross flow head onto a UK spec block and take advantage of this.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jetta-Golf-Passat-Beetle-Cabrio-MK2-MK3-MK4-2-0L-8V-SOHC-T3-T3-T4-Turbo-Kit-63-/200680023828#vi-content
(just an example dont shoot me)
Not sure if this kit is for x flow, but being from the states I suspect it is......
You need to think about compression and engine management to get it to work as well.
Would be nice to see an 8v turbo, I worked on a Mk2 with a turbo running 190bhp which was epic (when it was working :lipsrsealed:)
Its easier and more fruitful to stick a 20vt in, but then the fun in working on cars is what its all about as there is always something better to stick in or an easier engine to mod.
Your money at the end of the day :smiley:
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You'd be insane to blow your money trying to turbo the 2.0 8v when 1.8T engines are so readily available. You'd be much better off doing an engine swap to the 20vT, if what VW BUSH says is correct then a mapped 1.8T will make more power than a 2.0T
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You'd be insane to blow your money trying to turbo the 2.0 8v when 1.8T engines are so readily available. You'd be much better off doing an engine swap to the 20vT, if what VW BUSH says is correct then a mapped 1.8T will make more power than a 2.0T
A mapped BAM 20vt will make more than two turbo 8v's all day long.
It is easier and more economical/no brainer to go down the 20vt route, but sometimes easier is not as fun even if you draw the same conclusion at the end of it
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Ah good, even more reason to pursue the conversion, does anyone know if the manifold and turbo unit from a 1.8t fits the 2.0 head then, i don't want to sell my wee baby,a s i'm passionately in love with it, it makes me smile every time i look at it, drive it and talk about it, would break my heart to part with it as we have a bit of history, ye ken, its only 8v and 115bhp. would hardly describe it as pish but do admit it needs a bit more go. :grin: :laugh:
Anyone that owns a 1.8t will call your car pish because that's what they are seriously sell it and buy a 1.8t if u want more power and the only piece of history you have is that it is probably 1 of the worst mk4 golfs
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Not meaning to sound harsh but so many folk come on with ideas like this and it's just I silly bud Xtex just went from putting a 1.8t in his 1.6 and I'm sure he will tell u how much happier he is
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I you want to be a bit more creative get a 1.8t then put a stroker kit on so you have a 2l 20v turbo :rolleyes:
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Sry just re read and saw Mk4 :lipsrsealed:
Sell it buy a proper golf :grin:
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Sry just re read and saw Mk4 :lipsrsealed:
Sell it buy a proper golf :grin:
:grin: :grin: :grin:
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oops seems i'm on wrong site, my car is push, i'm insane, oh well never mind. adios.
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Bye then. :rolleyes:
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(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/golfyste/289F2192-5DCE-4599-902B-8E4FEBCFFBEB-456-0000002F3CEF42F2.jpg)
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There should be a sarcasm test when you join up to this forum, not just a mention in the header :grin:
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:grin: :grin: :grin:
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oops seems i'm on wrong site, my car is push, i'm insane, oh well never mind. adios.
Sometimes! :D
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O dear a case of car denial!!
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You mk4 boys are so b!tchy :grin:
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You mk4 boys are so b!tchy :grin:
Not b!tchy, just trying to save him some cash & time :grin:
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Trying to turbo a mk4 too slow has to be the worst idea ever.
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Trying to turbo a mk4 too slow has to be the worst idea ever.
says wayne that bought a rover 75 :grin: :grin:
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Trying to turbo a mk4 too slow has to be the worst idea ever.
says wayne that bought a rover 75 :grin: :grin:
Sold it 3 weeks ago :grin:
(having said that just wait until you see what I have in mind as a replacement :lipsrsealed: )
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Trying to turbo a mk4 too slow has to be the worst idea ever.
says wayne that bought a rover 75 :grin: :grin:
Sold it 3 weeks ago :grin:
(having said that just wait until you see what I have in mind as a replacement :lipsrsealed: )
please dont let it be as stupid as wantin to turbo a 2.0 :smiley:
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Trying to turbo a mk4 too slow has to be the worst idea ever.
says wayne that bought a rover 75 :grin: :grin:
Sold it 3 weeks ago :grin:
(having said that just wait until you see what I have in mind as a replacement :lipsrsealed: )
A yugo? Haha
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Trying to turbo a mk4 too slow has to be the worst idea ever.
says wayne that bought a rover 75 :grin: :grin:
Sold it 3 weeks ago :grin:
(having said that just wait until you see what I have in mind as a replacement :lipsrsealed: )
A yugo? Haha
is that worse that a 75 :tongue:
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Good bloody point baz at least the yugo was on top gear!! :grin:
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i think he`s gone :grin:
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Good bloody point baz at least the yugo was on top gear!! :grin:
so was the sport version of the 75 :grin: :grin: :grin: a sport version did they forget they were rover
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best thing you can do with a 2.0 8 v engine from the mk4 platform is scrap it
it is a absolute pile of sh!te engine known for fault out the factory
AVOID
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Ive got a mk3 2l 8v and im looking at doin a 1.8t engine conversion but wouldnt risk putting a turbo on the engine ive got now,even if u cn get 160/170 outvthe block its gona blow sooner or later imo
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oops seems i'm on wrong site, my car is push, i'm insane, oh well never mind. adios.
If your still out there and looking to turbo the 2.0 8v , I'd recommend you buy a secondhand 8v engine and build it ready to put in your car. (I paid £50 for a complete 2.0 8v)
Buy an exhaust manifold and turbo from a mk3 1.9td. (I paid £30 inc post for mine)
You will need to take a grinder and slightly shave the top of the exhaust ports and bottom of the inlet ports to make it fit onto you 8v head, but the stud pattern is the same.
Buy a 1.9 td exhaust from the downpipe back, you can get a decat pipe on ebay, you can also get a centre pipe replacement which does away with the middle silencer box, then choose a rear silencer box or keep your own (I paid £90 for downpipe, decat pipe and centre pipe.)
You will need to replace the sump with one that has a return for the oil from the turbo. (I paid £18)
Your oil pump should have a second connection that is blanked off that you can use to feed the turbo, if not replace it with one that has.
You'll have to make your own pipework from air filter to the intercooler, then from the intercooler to the turbo and from the turbo to the inlet and the oil feed/return for the turbo. (I paid £55 for the intercooler and my mate has all the pipework I'll need)
I have replaced all the gaskets and oil seals in the engine, reground all the valves and replaced the valve stem seals and oil seals in the head and have used a high build headgasket to lower compression slightly. (cost around £90 for all the gaskets/seals)
If you want, you can buy a set of kawazaki zzr1100 carbs that have been upjetted and come with a conversion plate to fit a 2.0 8v , they are on ebay for about £150, (I got mine for £130) the bloke I am using to set it up for me when I finish building it says it will be easier to set up with carbs, but you will need a plenum chamber if you do use carbs. (which is the only thing I am yet to buy)
So that route has cost me £463 plus whatever the plenum chamber is going to cost, so for around £500 I'll have build a 2.0 8v turbo, rather than buying for a 1.8t setup.
Obviously you could use a bigger turbo and make a custom exhaust if you wanted to, but I have done it that way so that I don't have to fabricate anything.
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Hhhmmmmm, you have spent £500 on making your 8v engine, potentially, about 30bhp more than stock........
What are your plans for the ecu if you are going to run carbs?
Plus, turbo-ing a carbed motor is an art form itself and is gonna cost you a lot more than that carb kit you bought as they are desgned for N/A cars.
It is a very interesting build if you can get it all running, I do believe you are going to run into a LOT of headaches tho.
Good luck :wink:
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To be honest, I myself have no clue about running it on carbs and wouldn't have bothered, but the bloke that is doing it for me has told me what to do, all I have to do is build it and he is going to set it up, He has been doing stuff like this for over 20 years so knows what he is doing and I trust him to do it properly.
So I'm just doing as I am told, he has done stuff like this before and as I work in his garage for free it doesn't cost me anything to have him work on my cars, which is why it will get a new floor welded in, new sills, new wings and a full respray as well.
I'm doing it more to see what the results will be, he did a similar build on a ford scorpio 2.0 8v which standard had something like 110/120bhp and got that up to just over 180bhp, I'm hoping to get about 150bhp from mine on this setup, I want to see how reliable the engine is when it is turbocharged and what it feels like, if all goes well, I'd look into getting a bigger turbo, changing the cam, port and polish the head.
I thought is worth a try as it would cost me £500 to buy and fit a 16v and that would only have 150bhp and I doubt that with what I'm doing I'll get less than that from my 8v, but there is a chance I could get more, also means that the engine going in has been stripped, had all the gaskets replaced, had new piston rings and the bores honed.
It could all go wrong and go bang, or not work in the first place, but if I don't try I'll never know, plus, I like to be different.
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Do you know what.. i'm with you on this, you can have all the horsepower in the world and still have a boring car and still lose your licence in a heartbeat.. sometimes its more fun just to do something different for sh1ts and giggles and i'm guessing you'd have plenty of people nosing around it at meets and shows when its done.
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You do realise that running your car on bike carbs is a no no as it won't pass an MOT as the mixture won't be right enough to run a cat, don't you?
Anything past 1992 needs to run a cat. You can't run a cat with carbs.
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Emissions tests are easily cheated.
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Anything past 1992 needs to run a cat. You can't run a cat with carbs.
Wrong
Mine has past the last 3 MOT with the S3 engine, and NO cat
My car is a August 1993
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You do realise that running your car on bike carbs is a no no as it won't pass an MOT as the mixture won't be right enough to run a cat, don't you?
Anything past 1992 needs to run a cat. You can't run a cat with carbs.
I genuinely didn't know that, but how did it work on that cobra kit car project on wheeler dealers where they put cats on a holley carb'd chevy motor?
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You do realise that running your car on bike carbs is a no no as it won't pass an MOT as the mixture won't be right enough to run a cat, don't you?
Anything past 1992 needs to run a cat. You can't run a cat with carbs.
I genuinely didn't know that, but how did it work on that cobra kit car project on wheeler dealers where they put cats on a holley carb'd chevy motor?
Was that not for SVA (Wheeler Dealers)? That has slightly different rules on emmisions etc.
I think there are older examples of cars (and possibly motorcycles) which used carbs and had a cat but I suspect this is of a different type to that fitted to modern cars. Not running the right AFR will kill a cat so that will be why those horrible SPI systems appeared in the early 90's.
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Are those carbs designed to be pressurised? Doubt it. Gonna be alot of headaches with that carb setup, expect it to leak fuel and not run very well. You should be using some form of programable ecu so you can control the engine properly.
Would like to see how this will run although have doubts that it will run well without proper controls.
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Well all the grass track boys and pit racers round here are putting carbs on cars with no problems, including mk3 golfs, so i don't have any worries about that bit.
My neighbour is a bike nut and owns his own business selling and building bikes, and he has supercharged a zzr1100 so I'd say they can handle a turbo, he was explaining about the zzr1100 being a ram air system and them being ideal carbs to turbo, only carbs he would suggest over zzr1100 carbs are cbr900 carbs.
like i say, I'll see what happens when i get round to finishing it, just fancied trying something different, I asked all the questions I could, got as much information about it from everyone as I could, then got to the point where I had asked all I could, found that in theory it should work, so just had to start building it to find out, that's why I bought a second engine, so if it doesn't work or goes bang I can put my one back in.
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Well all the grass track boys and pit racers round here are putting carbs on cars with no problems, including mk3 golfs, so i don't have any worries about that bit.
My neighbour is a bike nut and owns his own business selling and building bikes, and he has supercharged a zzr1100 so I'd say they can handle a turbo, he was explaining about the zzr1100 being a ram air system and them being ideal carbs to turbo, only carbs he would suggest over zzr1100 carbs are cbr900 carbs.
like i say, I'll see what happens when i get round to finishing it, just fancied trying something different, I asked all the questions I could, got as much information about it from everyone as I could, then got to the point where I had asked all I could, found that in theory it should work, so just had to start building it to find out, that's why I bought a second engine, so if it doesn't work or goes bang I can put my one back in.
Ram air only becomes effective and high speeds
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Ram air isn't the same as turbo air flow or boost either.
Looking at less than 0.5 psi at 150mph.
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Switching to carbs is a bonkers idea, fuel injection is a lot better in the long run.
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Ok, so the car and bike mechanics are wrong, what carbs would you suggest?
Switching to carbs is a bonkers idea, fuel injection is a lot better in the long run.
Why? Please explain why running a car on carbs as a weekend/show car is a bonkers idea, everyone is quick to pick faults, I'm trying to do something different to the run of the mill, everyone does a 1.8t conversion, so much so that there is even a thread on this site telling you how to do it, well that is just boring, my car is for me, and i don't want the same thing as everyone else, and if you think this is bonkers, I hate to think what you'll think of my next engine.
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He's saying its bonkers because its not the best way to do it. All very well wanting something different, but you won't get the best performance or have it run very well using carbs. There may be a way of getting around it, but proper management and an injection system will have it running much better.
You need full spark and fuel control to stop the engine blowing up and if doesn't blow up, you may also need a healthy bank balance to fuel the thing. All that trouble for measly 150hp. :rolleyes:
Also, you say you don't know much about doing something like that. A compromised (due to the carbs) turbo car won't be the most reliable, so are you going to take it back to the guy every time it plays up.
I have a 2.0L 16v turbo and at the start running on standalone management was tricky to sort out. Hopefully the guy will have enough jets and a method of measuring air:fuel ratio to get it running well enough for you to drive it at weekends.
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I think the general feeling is that there are more constructive ways to spend your money, anything is possible but sometimes there is just little point.
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he chould well be doing it for sh!ts and giggels.
turbo and carbs is never going to be optimal but it can make power, basicly you just shove the carbs inside the plenum and shove the FPR in there ( or get one desinged for turbo carb applications and connect a pipe from it to said plenum ) fuel pressure about 1psi over plenum and off to go. just have to give it a fair glug more fuel than you would have to with efi. i'd never sugest it to be a good idea for a daily but for the hell of it crack on and it's diffrent to the usual 20vt swap. if i was going to build a show car i would use any engine but the 20vt just so it would be diffrent.
anyway these 2.0 crossflow 8 valve motors, I'M STILL ACTIVLY TRYING TO KILL THE SAME FECKING ONE. done 235,000 miles near as dammit its been working up the nitrus jets from 25 bhp over the last few months upto 175's now and its still not poped :angry:
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he chould well be doing it for sh!ts and giggels.
turbo and carbs is never going to be optimal but it can make power, basicly you just shove the carbs inside the plenum and shove the FPR in there ( or get one desinged for turbo carb applications and connect a pipe from it to said plenum ) fuel pressure about 1psi over plenum and off to go. just have to give it a fair glug more fuel than you would have to with efi. i'd never sugest it to be a good idea for a daily but for the hell of it crack on and it's diffrent to the usual 20vt swap. if i was going to build a show car i would use any engine but the 20vt just so it would be diffrent.
anyway these 2.0 crossflow 8 valve motors, I'M STILL ACTIVLY TRYING TO KILL THE SAME FECKING ONE. done 235,000 miles near as dammit its been working up the nitrus jets from 25 bhp over the last few months upto 175's now and its still not poped :angry:
:grin: :grin: :grin: Well why didn't you say so, just get a holset Scania R730 turbo and fit that, that will blow the f**king internals out through the exhaust and the valves out the bonnet, I was going to stick with fuel injection and fit a holset 144 530 turbo but decided to do the build with at least a small chance that the engine won't go bang.
My next engine will cost about £2000/£2500 for the entire build,it will have over 300bhp in it's standard natrually aspirated state, then when I have worked out all the problems and got used to it, I'll then buy a turbo kit for it which is £2800, at 10psi it will be kicking out just over 500bhp.
I just need to find out if I can fit it in the engine bay, how hard it will be and obviously wait for the finances, I am moving out of the room I am renting and renting a bungalow next week and that has cost me £8k with the deposit, first months rent and furnishing the place
Also with the fact the company I work for had no work for me for 2 months and have not paid me for 2 months work that I did do I have also been using the money I had saved to live on for the last 4 months, and that was money I had put aside for doing a conversion on the golf, which is why I am now carrying on with turbo 8v idea, as I bought the parts last year and gave up on the idea in favour of more power, but have decided I might as well try and get it finished and can use it while saving up again.
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None of my business but if your not being paid and just moved out I wouldn't even waste money on a 99p DVD let alone a turbo 8v project!!
I think you might actually not be normal :grin: :grin:
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I am working and getting paid again now and still have a couple of £k in the bank put to one side, and as i say i already have all the parts to build it.
Although your definitely right, I'm not normal! :wink:
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i spend loads of money on cars when i'm not working .
more work will appear more time won't
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i spend loads of money on cars when i'm not working .
more work will appear more time won't
True, although I prefer to spend the money on parts when I am working, then fit them when I'm not working.
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Wrong
Mine has past the last 3 MOT with the S3 engine, and NO cat
My car is a August 1993
Yes but you live in a different world to the rest of us, your so-called 'real world', which to the outside sometimes appears maybe a touch pikey and 'flexible' in some respects.
From the DFT MOT manual:
Basic Emissions Test procedure (BET)
The basic emissions test is applied to all petrol fuelled vehicles first used on or after 1 August 1992. Despite its name this test is primarily aimed at identifying, and assessing emissions from, vehicles with advanced emissions control systems such as three-way catalytic converters. The test uses EC minimum in service emission limits for modern cars.
For cars subject to this procedure emissions are assessed during two separate tests. As the procedure is more complicated than the non-catalyst test, the emissions analysers include computer software aimed at guiding the Tester through the test sequence. The primary reason for the introduction of these meters is to ensure that the car is tested accurately.
The first test consists of checking the emissions at ‟fast-idle speed‟ which involves running the engine at a speed of 2500 - 3000 rpm. During this test the emissions of CO and HC will be checked and a further check will be made on the lambda value.
The second test consists of a check of emissions at "normal idle speed" in which the engine will idle between 450 and 1500rpm, but in this case only the CO emissions are assessed.
The emissions limits to be met are specified for both the fast and normal idle tests. At fast idle, CO must be at or less than 0.2%, HC at or less than 200 parts per million (ppm), and the lambda value must be between 0.97 and 1.03. At normal idle, CO must be at or less than 0.3%.
You can read the whole lot here:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/Emissions%2017th%20Edition.pdf
So although it is *possible* Dear Brad's rocket-powered tugboat might have passed an MOT without a cat on it, provided all of the emissions standards were met, it is unlikely most cars without a cat would pass, especially carb motors, which don't have the same control over the mixture and emissions that an electronic injection controlled motor has.
:rolleyes:
Now, where's BenVicky to back up dear Brad's viewpoint?
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DH while you make a compelling argument and while I agree about it being a problem moving to carbs and getting the mixture right, the rest I do not agree with.
Most modern cars do not need cats to pass their emissions test, people think a cat has a much bigger effect than what it really does, if the car is in good running order and has regular services it should be fine.
I have several friends with cars that have no cats, they have either smashed the internals of the cat out or replaced them with an empty casing and they have no problem passing an emissions test, one has a skoda fabia vrs, another has an e39 M5, another has an e36 316 and another has what I think is a mk5 fiesta, not sure what mk is what with the fiesta, probably because I'd rather burn them than look at one, none of these have had a problem with emissions.
Even the tester gave me advice about me losing the cat on my golf, I was just going to put a decat pipe in and put the cat on for the mot so he could see it had one, but he told me to put an empty casing and leave it on.
When I took one of my peugeot's for it's mot it had not been started for over a year, had not been driven for more than 2 years and had not been driven more than 50 miles in 4 years, had not had a service for over 25000 miles, it had no cat as I bought it off someone I knew as scrap, with the intention of fixing it to give to my girlfriend and they had taken the cat off, so I welded an old section of exhaust in which looked like a cat, the engine was cold when it was tested as I had left it at the mot station the night before for them to change a tyre, I naturally expected it to fail on emissions, but it went straight through.
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Wrong
Mine has past the last 3 MOT with the S3 engine, and NO cat
My car is a August 1993
Yes but you live in a different world to the rest of us, your so-called 'real world', which to the outside sometimes appears maybe a touch pikey and 'flexible' in some respects.
From the DFT MOT manual:
Basic Emissions Test procedure (BET)
The basic emissions test is applied to all petrol fuelled vehicles first used on or after 1 August 1992. Despite its name this test is primarily aimed at identifying, and assessing emissions from, vehicles with advanced emissions control systems such as three-way catalytic converters. The test uses EC minimum in service emission limits for modern cars.
For cars subject to this procedure emissions are assessed during two separate tests. As the procedure is more complicated than the non-catalyst test, the emissions analysers include computer software aimed at guiding the Tester through the test sequence. The primary reason for the introduction of these meters is to ensure that the car is tested accurately.
The first test consists of checking the emissions at ‟fast-idle speed‟ which involves running the engine at a speed of 2500 - 3000 rpm. During this test the emissions of CO and HC will be checked and a further check will be made on the lambda value.
The second test consists of a check of emissions at "normal idle speed" in which the engine will idle between 450 and 1500rpm, but in this case only the CO emissions are assessed.
The emissions limits to be met are specified for both the fast and normal idle tests. At fast idle, CO must be at or less than 0.2%, HC at or less than 200 parts per million (ppm), and the lambda value must be between 0.97 and 1.03. At normal idle, CO must be at or less than 0.3%.
You can read the whole lot here:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/Emissions%2017th%20Edition.pdf
So although it is *possible* Dear Brad's rocket-powered tugboat might have passed an MOT without a cat on it, provided all of the emissions standards were met, it is unlikely most cars without a cat would pass, especially carb motors, which don't have the same control over the mixture and emissions that an electronic injection controlled motor has.
:rolleyes:
Now, where's BenVicky to back up dear Brad's viewpoint?
The only thing I need to back up what I say is the last 3 MOT certificates...
You chat sh!t.. simples
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MOT certs don't really mean much.
take it to the right mot man and a fire breathing monster that struggels to idel at 1500 rpm and is still chucking 7% co with HC off the scale turns in to a purring littel kitten that passes first time...
that screwdriver they "adjust" it with must be magic
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Who cares about emissions?
Why do you lot care so much and argue so much about what someone wants to do with their own car?
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Because we have nothing better to do! :grin:
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:grin: :grin: :grin:
People's need to get a life then
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:grin: :grin: :grin:
People's need to get a life then
THIS
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Who cares about emissions?
Why do you lot care so much and argue so much about what someone wants to do with their own car?
Because its very very funny...
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Who cares about emissions?
Why do you lot care so much and argue so much about what someone wants to do with their own car?
Because its very very funny...
:grin: sometimes