GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk4 => Topic started by: Prawny on 21 November 2012, 16:20
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Afternoon folks, just thought I'd share with you my results of what seems like a long year of hard work, I first fitted my ko4 hybrid to my 212k mile engine back in January of this year, and Niki at R-tech mapped it at the time to a nice and rod friendly 291bhp
Since the day I picked the car up back in February, Niki and I have been talking about sticking rods in it, and bringing it back to see what it can really do.
Finally that day came, and the car was booked into R-tech for a map tweak on Nov 20th.
Since the original 291bhp map, I've built up a new engine, using a 108k block, pistons and head, with the bores honed, new rings, and some DM forged rifle drilled rods. I've also added AEM water methanol injection, and ditched my miltek 2.5'' non res cat back in favour of the gti famous ebay 3'' system.
after just 4k miles, when I pulled the engine, I found the turbo was in fairly poor health, and was fast on it's way to destruction. I gave the turbo to Littco from this forum, who rebuilt it for me with an uprated bearing kit, balanced the whole unit and also replaced a faulty actuator with one of his own 1 bar items.
And then it was time....
R-tech being 130 miles away, I was up early, and had my standard 'day out' breakfast of a hybrid Pasta n Sauce (everything must be hybrid :tongue:), 1x Cheese and Broccoli hybridised with 1x Cheese leak and ham pasta n sauce. Properly awesome combo.
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/IMG_7252.png)
And we're off!
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/IMG_7254.jpg)
All was going well as I headed up the A34, with the car feeling good.
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/IMG_7255.jpg)
Until I got to oxford and everything just seemed to stop. I was due at R-tech at 0930, so wasn't too impressed with this:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/IMG_7258.jpg)
Quick stop in a petrol station for another coffee
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/IMG_7259.jpg)
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/IMG_7260.jpg)
I arrived at R-tech at 09:35, and went to drive up onto the ramp, only to find my splitter caught the ramp and it wouldn't go on, so the bumper had to come off:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/IMG_7262.jpg)
And onto the ramp it went:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/IMG_7261.jpg)
Trying to load the car onto the dyno, it was sitting FAR too low in the rollers, so really annoyingly, after checking all the corner weights just the day before, I had to raise the coilovers at the front to be able to get it strapped down properly :(
I took measurements, and will reset the coilovers to the same height as near as I possibly can.
It was much colder at R-tech this week compared to Badger 5 last weekend, just 12 degrees inside the unit. Niki also has the benefit of a back door, with a few strategically placed fans to draw fresh cold air in from outside, rather than sucking in the warmer air from inside the workshop.
so, with almost ideal atmospheric conditions for the dyno (cold and wet), a base line run was done, with some really quite surprising results!
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/IMG_7268.jpg)
318bhp and 310lbft, exactly as it arrived. Very promising indeed. On the old engine with this very same map, it previously made 291bhp at R-tech in feb, so the new engine is 27bhp up on the old one in similar conditions. This was at the original 18psi of boost.
The guys always use a bit of WD40 type spray to help the car get traction on the rollers, but after the first run, we noticed the rollers had gone black. Jim and Niki both said they hadn't seen that before, there was like a layer of rubber coated on the rollers from my RS-Rs!
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/IMG_7269.jpg)
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/IMG_7270.jpg)
Sticky!!
After a few issues (Niki had to pop out to attend his daughters school where she was ill - all OK now thankfully), Niki and Jim got to work with doing some load testing and making alterations to the map:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/IMG_7272.jpg)
Nikis concentration face:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/IMG_7271.jpg)
Strapped down with the fans in place:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/IMG_7273.jpg)
The new ECU live emulator Niki has is absolutely fantastic, they load a copy of my map onto the emulator ECU, and run it on this, which can then be live mapped whilst the car is running on the dyno. So different to the old fashioned bench flash / change and re-flash method that used to be necessary with the ME3.8 ECU.
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/IMG_7276.jpg)
Adam Hobden popped in to say hello and was proudly showing off his new T3/4 monster turbo, having realised his ko4 hybrid was never going to beat mine ;)
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/IMG_7280.jpg)
Niki carried on mapping, without the help of the water meth at first. it went up to 325bhp/318lbft first, then a few more tweaks saw 331bhp / 327lbft, with the car swallowing up LOADS of ignition advance and not pulling any corrections at all. Boost was kept at a peak of 21psi, which we both agreed we didn't want to go above.
Just before lunch, a few more tweaks saw us at 344bhp and 343lbft, still on the smallest meth nozzle, rated by AEM to 200bhp. Still seeing very little heat produced, and no corrections to the timing at all.
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/IMG_7282.jpg)
After lunch, Jim fitted the medium sized meth nozzle, which we had always planned to end up on, and Niki ran the car again, similar results again, 344bhp with 21 degrees ignition advance, 2-3 degrees pull in the midrange after some very heavy brake testing (out of a possible 12), but still no pull at all at the top end. Niki decided to try dialing some more timing in above 4500rpm, and the grin on his face after the first run said it all!
A bit more testing, and a few more runs, and Niki found that the car would happily take 27 degrees of timing at the top end without any CF's at all, and was making amazing power.
We settled on 25.5 degrees of timing from 4500rpm to the limiter at 7500rpm, which resulted in final figures of 353bhp and 345lbft, still at 21psi peak boost. It's still not pulling any timing at the top end, AFR is 11.9:1, and despite repeated load testing and brake testing on the dyno, right after the 353bhp run, the inlet manifold was ice cold to touch, and even the cam cover was cool enough that you could hold your hand on it, so that's where it stayed, at the full fat 353bhp.
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/IMG_7286.jpg)
A few other hyrbids have come close to this, one making 352bhp, and one making 348bhp, but these have both needed lots of boost to make this figure, and have been generating crazy heat, with the results not being sustainable, so Niki has pulled them all back to around 330bhp for the road. Unlike these, mine is making 353bhp with less heat than you'd usually see at 330bhp, the way it flows is just amazing.
The car feels absolutely incredible to drive, with over 330bhp held from 5000-7000rpm, and torque holding above 300lbft from 3500-6400rpm. a very broad spread indeed :) 3rd gear when it hooks up, from 5-7.5k rpm, is absolutely ballistic, proper hold on tight roller coaster stuff if I'm honest.
Actuator pressure remains very smooth and sensible, with 287bhp and 276lbft at 15psi.
All in all, I could not be happier with the result at all, I owe Niki, Jim, and ben a HUGE thank you for spending so long on the car, the guys cleared the diary for the whole day for me, and had no other customers all day long, just Niki and Jim, all day on my car getting it right, with Ben manning the phone and sorting out anyone who came to speak to Niki.
The drive home was entertaining in the rain, and pretty scary when I did try full boost in the wet. I'm really looking forward to getting it out on the open road on a dry day.
One last cheeky flame pic:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/IMG_7291.png)
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god damn nut case! :grin:
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Outstanding results! Pleased for you mate!
So how was your making far less heat than others? Same specs? Or was it the WMI that clinched the deal for yours?
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Very nice mate, shame it's not 4wd :grin: :grin:
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Awesome mate!
i saw the pic uploaded on niki's facebook and was waiting for the write up!
im dying for more power!! :laugh:
may have to do a new build :grin:
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So how was your making far less heat than others? Same specs? Or was it the WMI that clinched the deal for yours?
In the politest possible way, I don't think anyone else has really taken the time to do one of these 'properly' yet
All the other builds have had some form of compromise somewhere, lots of little tiny things that the owners always say ''yea, but that won't make any real difference'', but you add a few of those together and it DOES make a difference.
There are loads of these on LCR's and S3's all struggling to pass 315-320bhp, but there's always something that's not quite there, small port inlets on large port heads, standard manifolds, smaller FMIC or pipes, no WMI, there's always one little thing that stops it from being a complete package.
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Sweet mate. Well it surely is a monster...Only one thing left. NOS :lipsrsealed:
Will make a mean track car/drag car. What other mods do you have, suspension wise etc? :smiley:
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Once again congratulation Prawn! How big a part do you think the AGU engines CR played? I'm planing on re building my AMK engine with a large port head. Should I just buy a AGU block as a starting point?
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Will make a mean track car/drag car. What other mods do you have, suspension wise etc? :smiley:
12 point welded in cage, KW V3 suspension, pillow ball adjustable top mounts, 22/32mm arb's, all LCR cast arms / hubs/quick rack/brakes, it's reasonably well specced :)
It doesn't do drag racing though, I tried it once, almost fell asleep. This car lives on the track :)
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Amazing results :cool:
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Nice one nick!! :cool: awesome results!! Would have been giving you a run for my money if I had kept mine !!
:lipsrsealed:
Niki really knows his sh!t!!
Enjoy!!
When's the next ring trip :lipsrsealed:
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Sounds good. but wrong time of year for it.
my mate had his k1mapped to 350+bhp(couldnt get a proper reading cause it was spinning on the rollers) and hes hardly been able to put the power down cause of the wet ect. still bloody awesome so ide imagine yours is too :D
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Awesome work mate ! Well done you are the new mk4 hero ha ha :grin:
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Awesome work mate ! Well done you are the new mk4 hero ha ha :grin:
..... its a a3 :laugh:
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Ha ha mk4 platform hero!
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Ha ha mk4 platform hero!
better :evil:
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Bonkers, must be awesome to drive :afro:
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Did see this on FB, congratulations.
Careful at Adenauer Forst :grin:
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Excellent stuff mate. I really need to get myself up there again and let Nick loose on the Golf. I'll PM you for some information later
I'm loving the battle scars the A3 is still wearing :afro:
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Impossible to see those figures ahahahahhaa. (jokes)
Nick seriously knows his stuff :P Bet it feels epic to drive.
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Impossible to see those figures ahahahahhaa. (jokes)
Nick seriously knows his stuff :P Bet it feels epic to drive.
We were surprised too Chris!
it looked like it was going to end up mid/low 340's, then Niki decided to try dialing more timing in, and the figures just went up and up. the massive added bonus being, that as timing is increased, EGT's are decreased, so you end up with more power, and less heat, for the same flow.
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jesus christ on a bike! mint!
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A little 3rd gear pull, sadly it was damp, so traction isn't the best even with the LSD:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMuoq6D8daU
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And one of the 21 power runs that were done on Tuesday:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OqIkwQMT0f0
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that is crazy!!
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I want another 1.8t AGU
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I thought you had one Jamie?
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he sold it for a bmw!
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Yeah I sold it :cry:
Somedays I wish I never sold it, onwards and upwards I suppose.
Bought the beemer about 6weeks ago and it still doesnt feel like my car atm I am NOT a diesel person BUT I dunno if I wanna be back in the mk4 platform anymore :undecided:
Some bloody great results there mate, R-Tech NEVER fail to please me and they always make good consistant power across the board aslong as you listen to their advise.
Best advice Nick gave me was its about the "flow" of the engine, If you get that right like you have the car will always make good power with the correct software.
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Impossible to see those figures ahahahahhaa. (jokes)
Nick seriously knows his stuff :P Bet it feels epic to drive.
We were surprised too Chris!
it looked like it was going to end up mid/low 340's, then Niki decided to try dialing more timing in, and the figures just went up and up. the massive added bonus being, that as timing is increased, EGT's are decreased, so you end up with more power, and less heat, for the same flow.
Oh yes, Its those things people dont realise when building/mapping a car that they make such a huge effect. I seriously cannot wait to get mine built and down to Nick to map it. Might try stay down a few days while hes on with doing it :)
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This thread makes me want another :cry:
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Shouldnt have sold up!
I need more boost in my life, but seriously trying to hold off the idea, until new one is done,
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Hey mate did you say littco down the hybrid for you? whatK04 turbo is it and what internals did he use also how much did he charge. Sorry for the questions just love the build you've got!
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Dan (Littco) rebuilt the turbo for me yes mate, although it's originally built by CR turbos
It's a ko4 frame, with a RS6 turbine wheel with 7 degree clip, and a 2283 billet compressor wheel. B5/Littco ported hotside, and a 1 bar actuator. Price wise I couldn't say, as Dan just rebuild this one. The original unit from CR was around £950, but I believe Dan can do them for much less.
I havn't got my own build thread, so I'll add todays excitment in here instead:
I bought a VW Motorsport Billet alloy shifter :)
It won't make the car any faster, or lighter, but it will make me smile every single time I use it, because it's just so damn cool. It's something I have wanted for YEARS since I first saw one on a race car many years ago.
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/Engine%20install/9D90FCCB-AB46-41A7-BDCB-B142834B53FC-18679-00000E209D4F5B9D.jpg)
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/Engine%20install/C5C8DB79-A8F6-490F-96C7-CDCFE8717F39-18679-00000E20A316167A.jpg)
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/Engine%20install/BAF2E86C-1EE1-4045-97FA-F39B6FFF7329-18679-00000E20A856603A.jpg)
The unit seems really nicely made, both the pivots are on bearings, and it has an awesome little lift collar to engage reverse.
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/Engine%20install/E283FD59-D8E9-4455-8A4B-49B25CA58F7F-18679-00000E20AF223703.jpg)
The only complaint I could find about these, was the lack of self centring on the lever from left to right, so I decided to try and come up with a solution.
That's where a tractor brake pedal return spring comes in.
it'll be fitted over the main shaft like this:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/Engine%20install/75B9962E-EFF8-4E8E-917E-A6338FA8AA39-18679-00000E20B50EF281.jpg)
But in between the unit body, and the main left-right pivot body, with 2 small dowel holes drilled for the tangs:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/Engine%20install/986545FD-9516-4734-9758-5FF60D3D0C76-18679-00000E20BAC20C00.jpg)
With careful placement, that should see the lever springing back to centre nicely.
The reverse lock out is also really cool. In normal operation, you push left for first, the these adjustable stops hit this pin like so:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/Engine%20install/67FEE27E-D888-4DAF-ABBE-7924F3910CC0-18679-00000E20C0E3AF55.jpg)
Then you pull this little lift collar:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/Engine%20install/47069813-6BB6-47C9-BB25-0AE2A2248D95-18679-00000E20CC51C4BA.jpg)
Which pulls this bike gear cable:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/Engine%20install/2933868D-89D8-4413-9B1B-7A71F1466462-18679-00000E20D178FB5C.jpg)
And the pin slides back, allowing you to move further left for reverse!
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/Engine%20install/818CD03B-320A-49A4-A3FE-5F2A1DC1AFB3-18679-00000E20C6C0C811.jpg)
The welding on the alloy tower supplied seems strong enough, but it's not very pretty, so I'm going to attack it with a flap disc and some wet n dry, and paint the tower Porsche 8C6 orange to match the cage and things.
Cable wise, I've got a set of shift cables from a volvo S40 which are longer to allow me to position the lever where I want it, and I'll be making up custom cable stays from 3mm plate, and of course, painting them orange too.
The ball joints I showed earlier, will go on each end of the new cables, so it'll be solidly mounted at each end of the cables for a really tight shift without any rubber in there.
Taking the volvo cables, and cutting the ends off, you can run an M6 die down the rod end and cut on an M6 thread like so:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/Engine%20install/57F7715C-CD35-443F-B346-C54975832B0B-8310-000006BBE4CACCE6.jpg)
Then with the aid of an M6-M8 adapter, I can convert the cable ends to an M8 thread:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/Engine%20install/8CA678C9-B49C-4FF2-97F1-D8B41B7C3AF1-8310-000006BBF4679F2E.jpg)
Then screw on my ball joints:
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd408/prawn16/Engine%20install/B5B19043-736C-4C1F-84F2-B102A5107E16-8310-000006BBFD74EB25.jpg)
Sorted! If I need to extend the cables ends at all due to stay placement or anything like that, I also have some M8 threaded sleeves, so I can fit a sleeve to the M8 male end on the cable end, then use some M8 stainless thread bar to get the ball joint exactly where I want it and lock it out with lock nuts.
It's a complete experiment, and I'm sure it'll feel rubbish at first, and take considerable setting up to get it right, but I just love these shifters so much, so here goes!
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Shotgun a ride out at JKM :afro:
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Sure man. Have been working on bits for the shifter today. Wanted to try and fit but weather is horrific here!
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Same here mate, it's been raining non stop
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Prawny, What spec is the rest of the engine?
I take it your running steel rods and forged pistons?
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Interally, it's pretty much a stock engine aside from the rods. AGU block/crank/pistons
All rebuilt, new rings/shells etc etc, with DM forged Rifle drilled rods, and a baffled sump, but otherwise it's standard on the inside.
Next weak point would be the exhaust valves, but they're not a worry if you're keeping the revs down, and my limiter is set at 7400 :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8tnV2L7Dew
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Sure man. Have been working on bits for the shifter today. Wanted to try and fit but weather is horrific here!
+1 its minging, non stop rain, cant get anything done
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what rods have you used?
I know people will no doubt have some thing to say about my next comment,
However there is a cheap alternative to the usual name brand rods.
Please don't shoot me down for suggesting these but..............
There is a company called MaxSpeeding which make steel rods,
They are a HongKong company, Now I wouldn't even mention these unless I knew they were good.
I know of 3 people who run these rods in high-ish power Ford Rs2000's
One guy runs 330bhp in a 2.3 turbo build and the car is a dedicated track car,
The other 2 are high revving N/A engines with rev limits over 8k.
These rods seem well made and were all well balanced from the supplier,
I don't know of any failures so far and all of the above cars are still working well.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VW-Golf-MK4-Gti-1-8T-conrod-con-rod-connecting-rod-rods-pleuel-bielle-conrods-/170561727555?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item27b6456c43
I am buying just after christmas either a golf 1.8t or a LCR if I can stomach the road tax and I will be using these rods in my build.
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please delete, stupid phone double posted
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I have DM forged Riffle drilled rods in mine.
I don't doubt for a minute that those rods are good quality, but they're not actually that cheap!
Those rods are £290, and they're not riffle drilled, so small end lubrication will suffer as a result.
I paid £436 shipped, for my DM Riffle drilled rods, ARP bolts, new OE shells, a full OE head gasket set and studs, a gates Timing belt, 2 oil filters, and 13 copper manifold nuts.
When you look at it like that, it makes £290 for those max jobbies seem a bit expensive doesn't it :P I doubt you'd get a full headset, shells, and cambelt for £146!
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Where did you buy it all from?
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It all came from Issam at INA mate, if you do a facebook search for Danny Lad Cunningham you should find him, he's the man who sorts it all out :)
I hope my post didn't come across as trying to shoot you down btw, that wasn't the intention. More just to show you that there's even cheaper, and better available!
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No, your post come across just fine,
I have posted about those rods in the past on a different forum, Got told they were sh!te and would
fail but I know thats not the case but the deal you mention does seem better value.