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General => The garage => Topic started by: GTiAnniversaryMan on 30 July 2012, 19:17
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Hi People
It's been a wile since my Anni was written off so have not been posting lately. Got a problem with my A3 Sport 170 TDi and I hoped you guys might be able to help.
Car: '06 A3 170 TDi remapped to 205 BHP and about 320 torques. It's done 86K. Original (I beleive) clutch started to slip when I gave it welly in gears 4-6. It got more pronounced so - logical conclusion - clutch is getting tired needs replacing. Bought full Sachs Organic including DMF and release bearing. My mechanic fitted it and took it for a test run. Took it really steady as it needed bedding in. At about 35mph in 4th he had to give it a little bit of throttle to to get through some lights and it slipped. He had not just changed gear and his foot was resting on the foot rest. Tried a little throttle (just enough to get some boost) in 5th and it slipped again!
He and I both surprised that the pedal was as light as it was with OEM clutch. Also OEM clutch was not actually badly worn enough to explain slipping.
Advice from supplier is clutch needs bedding in fully over 5-800 miles. I assumed that meant don't go doing timed runs at Santa Pod or hold it for five minute on a hill etc. Apparaently it means driving it like a granny at just over tickover!
I have now done 350 miles in it driving gently. Yesterday I had to just give it a short blip on the throttle (no more than a quarter) in 4th and it slipped.
Supplier and mechanic mystified. This is an uprated clutch and should easily handle 370 BHP+. (BTW the OEM clutch in my chipped Golf Anni (190BHP and 300 torques) never slipped)
ANY IDEAS?
Mechanic says he had a Civic with similar symptoms and it turned out to be the flexihose to the clutch slave cylinder which had collapsed internally and was preventing the fluid retuning back to the master - effctively causing symptoms similar to resting your foot on the clutch pedal. He's goig to check mine out in next few days.
If anyone has any other ideas - please tell.
Thanks in advance
Alan
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Are you sure that the crank seal is all ok and no oil is getting onto the clutch.
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Are you sure that the crank seal is all ok and no oil is getting onto the clutch.
Hi Wayne
Mechanic checked it all before install. Dry as a bone.
Regards
Alan
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warped flywheel face, got hot with the last clutch slipping and it distorted, new clutch can't grip full area now so slips to easy
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Didn't he say he replaced the DMF?
I reckon something in the new kit is faulty, it shouldn't need to be bedded in like that..
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Didn't he say he replaced the DMF?
I reckon something in the new kit is faulty, it shouldn't need to be bedded in like that..
Correct - I replaced the DMF and (as an engineer but not a mechanic) whilst I would expect it might take a few (hundred?) applications of the clutch to 'wear' all the friction surfaces to match each other, I would also expect the clutch to be pretty much 100% usable from day one - as some others have reported was the case with them.
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Didn't he say he replaced the DMF?
I reckon something in the new kit is faulty, it shouldn't need to be bedded in like that..
Correct - I replaced the DMF and (as an engineer but not a mechanic) whilst I would expect it might take a few (hundred?) applications of the clutch to 'wear' all the friction surfaces to match each other, I would also expect the clutch to be pretty much 100% usable from day one - as some others have reported was the case with them.
sorry missed that bit skim reading, flywheel can often be the issue as very few people ever bother to check them if reuseing.
clutch should have been fine from moment of fitting obviously over a short time its max torque handeing will increase a bit but i've never given new clutches any spectial care before and they've allways been fine
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Got the car back thre days ago. I have been driving around for a few days. Now done close on 700 miles of 'bedding in'. Master cylinder and restrictor valves all new. Flexi hose carefully checked and is fine.
Decided to test the clutch a little: 2000 rpm 4th gear then gave it half throttle. Car accelerates then rpm suddenly jumps 2-300 and drops back as soon as I lift off. DAMN! It feels like switching out of overdrive or an automatic kick down but without the acceleration!
So next I initiate the slip four times on the trot. Each time the slip gets a little less! The fifth time, almost no slip in 4th. Tried 5th at 2500 rpm - still some slip. Stopped and left car for 30 mins. On journey home clutch slip in 4th is back - same as before! Note: I am being very careful not to hold the slip for more than a second or two, and I'm giving it time between each one to let the disc cool.
Also when I take my foot off the throttle there's a sort of pause where there is no drive (like neutral) for 1-2 seconds then the engine braking seems to 'feed' in.
So nothing else for it. Going to have it pulled out next week and check:
Auto adjustment?
All part numbers correct?
Contamination?
Pressure plate wrong way round?
Bolts too long/pressuere plate properly seated/bolted?
Overly thick pressure plate?
Difference in overall thickness of assembly compared to original?
Any other suggestions welcomed.
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this is an intresting one.
as the oem clutch was slipping and not badly worn and the replacement is slipping it's makeing me think that the fault lies elsewhere.
the symptoms you've described dont sound like contamination to me. its almost sounds like there is an issue with actuating the clutch as in ether the slave cyl isn't fully returning or pressure is been held in the system.
not done a clutch in that exact model of car but it's usally nigh on inpossible to get a friction disk in the wrong way round just dosent fit ,
hydralic clutches are auto adjusting by nature and in theory cannot over adjust ( unless something is broken )
isn't going to be the bolts to long or seated wrong - give your mecanic some credit.
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this is an intresting one.
as the oem clutch was slipping and not badly worn and the replacement is slipping it's makeing me think that the fault lies elsewhere.
the symptoms you've described dont sound like contamination to me. its almost sounds like there is an issue with actuating the clutch as in ether the slave cyl isn't fully returning or pressure is been held in the system.
not done a clutch in that exact model of car but it's usally nigh on inpossible to get a friction disk in the wrong way round just dosent fit ,
hydralic clutches are auto adjusting by nature and in theory cannot over adjust ( unless something is broken )
isn't going to be the bolts to long or seated wrong - give your mecanic some credit.
Hi Danny
Mechanic has just had the car back for a week (mainly waiting for the right bits to come in) and we've eliminated all of the external hydraulic side. The slave/release bearing was new (supplied with clutch) so should be OK. Cant see how the pressure could be held in system now. However; you are right it does seem like it. Symptoms are not unlike leaving your foot on pedal!
I take your point about both old and new clutch slipping. Mechanic and I have both been concerned about this. Especially as old clutch not badly worn! Hence why we have been checking/replacing the hydraulic side. That said the old clutch was just 'giving in' and if I floored it in fifth and it started slipping it would just carry on until I backed off and I could just flick the Tacho round the dial by blipping the throttle. The new clutch on day one was jumping up 500 rpm and then sort of holding until the clutch caught up with the engine then (engine now at 2500-3000 rpm) I can put foot down again and it's OK. It's a bit mysterious! At present we think the old clutch just wasn't man enough to cope with the remap whereas the Sachs is (almost).
I am pretty certain disc is in right way. It was put in with the longer boss facing the gearbox which Sachs confirmed was correct. On the SRE Sachs the longer one is short enough to allow it to mount the wrong way but, again Sachs, say even so it would hardly make any difference. You can't mount the plate the wrong way on the LUK clutch we took out - the boss is too long!
I doubt the bolts were too long. I've used mechanic for years and he is meticulous but he is cocerned that pressure plate might not be properly mounted or adjusted. This is because when the clutch kit arrived it was part assembled, with the clutch disc sandwiched between the pressure plate and DMF. The bolts were pinched up. He was worried that the auto adjustment would automatically move to its max (worn pressure plate) position when he separated the parts and, if so, would need winding back with a special tool. Darkside assured us that this was not a problem and the cluch could be made to auto adjust by pressing the clutch pedal 10+ times before turning the engine on. He is still concerned that this is not good practise and that the clutch cover may have readjusted itself unevenly, or not at all. I note, from this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp5KeAQntGM&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp5KeAQntGM&feature=related) from ZF Services that they recommend a special tool to pre load the clutch during installation otherwise the self adjuster may render the clutch inoperative. Obviously we are both keen to photograph the position of the adjusters etc when he pulls it apart next week.
Obviously; any more thoughts would be welcomed.
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Just accidentally made it do it in 3rd at 2500 rpm. Not good.
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I'm confused.
Why can't you separate the parts?
The flywheel bolts onto the crank, the pressure plate bolts to this, with the friction disc in between. The pressure plate bolts are tightened once the friction disc is centred.
Once it's all on, the gearbox is on, the hydraulics are connected, the clutch will self adjust when you operate the pedal.
Or am i missing something here?
If it is corrected fitted, then the parts must be faulty...
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I'm confused.
Why can't you separate the parts?
The flywheel bolts onto the crank, the pressure plate bolts to this, with the friction disc in between. The pressure plate bolts are tightened once the friction disc is centred.
Once it's all on, the gearbox is on, the hydraulics are connected, the clutch will self adjust when you operate the pedal.
Or am i missing something here?
If it is corrected fitted, then the parts must be faulty...
You can separate them, but the self adjusting mechanism reads that as the pressure plate wearing down and the adjusters go to full to compensate as there is nothing now resisting them. Apparently resetting requires a special tool to put them back to zero adjustment. In other words they only naturally adjust one way. It's quite a complicated mechanism which inoves springs and a series of paired wedges. I believe there mght be some kind of ratchet invoved so that they don't adjust backwards. You wouldn't want them doing that as each time you operated the clutch they would be constantly adjusting back and forth.
Sachs actually recommend the use of a special installation tool on all self adjusting clutches to pre load the spring fingers until the pressure plate is bolted onto the DMF. Sic: "Failure to use this can make the self adjusters inoperable!" Most people don't use one. Instead they tighten up the six stretch bolts a turn at a time. See this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp5KeAQntGM&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp5KeAQntGM&feature=related)
Given that they only adjust one way (in operation) my mechanic is not convinced that the adjusters will have 'reset' themselves. That means the clutch thinks it has a much thinner friction plate in it than it actually has. In theory this would mean that it is operating with a clutch plate which is significantly thickr than it is adjusted for. This will change the at rest position of the diaphragm spring and its fingers. This could either mean the spring is now unable to offer optimum clamping force, or could be causing the fingers to contact the face of the release bearing.
If anyone out there can confirm these technical detail (or correct them) I would be interested to hear.
This migh resolve the conundrum that the previous clutch (which I thought had done 80K) also slipped but is barely worn. It must have been replaced becuase it was not worn enough to have done 80K. I wonder if the friction plate was replaced but the original pressure plate was refitted without the self adjuster being reset? The car has a complete ASH from new and there is no record of a new clutch, so it was probably done on a budget.
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Car went back into mechanic today. Waiting to see what he's found.
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Car went back into mechanic this morning. He has found as follows:
No contamination - or leaks from crankshaft or hydraulics
Tiny amount of glazing to only a small part of friction material
Friction/clutch disc was in the right way
Self adjustment was even and OK
Pressure plate bolted up evenly
· SACHS Part Numbers
· Flywheel - 2294 000 113 / correct but three equidistant burns/hot spots on surface and a lot of play (not rotational)
· Pressure Plate - 883082 999788 / incorrect (3082000396) three burn marks/hot spots equidistant (matching flywheel)
· Organic Clutch Disc - 881864 999502 / incorrect (1864999980)
· Release Bearing - 3182 997 901 / ??? can't find any numbers on it so assume it is correct for now.
Now waiting to hear from supplier.
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The upshot is that Darkside are replacing the Flywheel and Pressure Plate plus 12 new bolts FOC (plus a small upgrade cost as I only paid for the standard Pressure Plate). The Organic disc is in good nick and shows almost no signs of wear so we are refitting that. It is the correct one it just comes from a different kit. Obviously I'd have liked something for the aditional labour cost but ho hum! Darkside have remained very concerned and approachable throughout and offered the deal without prompting.
So; with any luck, I will be able to report back next week that the clutch is refitted and working fine. Fingers crossed.
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The car us back! Picked it up last night.
Pedal feels firmer and there is a real feel to it. You can really tell where the bite pint is and there's a real sense if working against a spring. Took a little getting used to (stalled it twice!) but after thirty mins it was enjoyable to use.
Itvtajes a little more care feeding it in as it can easily snatch, and will probably be hard work in stop start traffic but not so much to concern me.
The BIG NEWS is that it doesn't slip at all. Obviously I am taking it steady for a bit to "bed it in" (no traffic light drag races etc.) but once in gear it just pulls. Tried all the things that caused slippage before and not a sign.
In the end Darksude replaced the DMF, clutch cover and organic disc. It's cost me the labour to refit but my mechanic will do a deal on that. So EVENTUALLY I've got what I wanted. Very happy. My opinion of the Sachs product is restored. Well done to Darkside for their no quibble service.
I think I'll take my mechanics advice and go back to R-Tech to have them adjust the remap to make the power feed in more progressive. The clutch us handling it now but it was useful to have him drive it and feed back to me. The remap they did on my Anni was very nice and the Audi is all a bit "sudden"!
Thanks to all who have offered advice and sympathy.
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So the clutch was wrong/faulty?
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So the clutch was wrong/faulty?
A bit if both I think. Should have been an updated clutch cover not standard. In addition the flywheel seems to have a bit too much play and some high spots.
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Glad you got it sorted.
I've never used any special tools except a disc centering tool when doing clutches, and never had a problem.
It did sound like a problem with the pressure plate.
You said the friction disc was the wrong part? maybe it was slightly thinner?
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Had a guy from another forum fit cruise control yesterday. He really liked the clutch when he took it for a shakedown run. Reckons the slight extra weight and feel to the pedal is a big improvement on OEM.