GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk3 => Topic started by: ImpactUK on 04 July 2012, 23:43
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Head gasket has gone. Garage offered to replace the gasket, get the head skimmed and service it for 450 quid.
I want to have a go myself as money is tight, but i'd also like the experience. Is this a fairly simple job? The most work i've done on an engine is an oil change to be honest and i've never fiddled about with internals before.
Also if i get a used head, say, off eBay, would this give me a better chance of the HG not screwing up again?
I don't really want to put a used engine in as i couldn't do it myself and i haven't seen any nice examples around that are about the same mileage as mine.
BASICALLY, here are my questions:
1) If the current head is skimmed, will this give the engine a better chance of it not failing again?
2) If i got a used head, will this give the engine a better chance of it not failing again?
3) Is the head gasket/head easy to repair myself?
4) How would i go about removing, repairing and refitting(instructions would be nice)?
Sorry for all the questions and there may be a lot more, but i'm tight on cash at the moment and don't want the car to break again soon.
Thanks in advance!
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I'd honestly just get a new engine, I've seen them go on here for £50, it won't be that hard just label everything and take lots of photos
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Were u based?
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Last time i tried to do am engine swap on my old Zetec-S and I struggled a lot. I had to get a guy from a forum to basically do it for me as I didn't have the correct tools and know how. I don't know if this car is any easier and I can't for the life of me find any information on how to do it myself
I'd feel a lot more comfortable leaving the engine in and just taking a few bolts off than trying to get an engine out of there by myself
Also I'm based in Lytham St. Anne's, just below Blackpool
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What car is it?
I done mine buy myself. Stripped, skimmed and de-coked the whole head myself. Timing was easy too, but this is on a vr6!
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Its an 8v, so i assumed it would be pretty straight forward. My main worries are with money and hoping it doesn't destroy another head gasket in the future.
I'm up for trying anything, but i need some sort of guide on either how to rip the engine out or how to replace the HG.
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Buy a haynes manual - its all covered in there I believe. That would enable you to size up the job.
Be aware you'll probably need to buy a fair amount of tools, plus I would find a friendly machine shop to skim the head before re-fitting it.
1) If the current head is skimmed, will this give the engine a better chance of it not failing again?
Yes
2) If i got a used head, will this give the engine a better chance of it not failing again?
I wouldn't say you need it unless the current head is damaged.
3) Is the head gasket/head easy to repair myself?
not impossible, buy a haynes manual.
4) How would i go about removing, repairing and refitting(instructions would be nice)?
as above
Easier to get the garage to do it personally, but a challenge otherwise....
James
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Thanks for the great reply!
What sort of tools will i need? My brother has a Mk3 Haynes i think, so i'll take a look in there. I heard that Bentley ones are good but they are bloody expensive.
I'm not certain that the head is fully intact as it has been driven with the analogue temp gauge hitting the maximum, and the digital oil temp was around 120. A used head seems to be about the same price as skimming and straightening so i assumed that it would be better to get one that hasn't been reconditioned.
I have basically all of next week to attempt to repair or replace the engine, but after that i can't really do much.
Anyone in my area willing to help? I'll happily pay for petrol if you're coming from a long distance as long as its not more than £450 :grin:
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The head is skimmed because what happens when it overheats is that the head "warps" and is therefore no longer flat!
The head must be flat to get a watertight seal.
Therefore the head must be skimmed.
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>What sort of tools will i need?
apart from a decent socket set, pliers, etc, the only non-standard tool you need that comes to mind is the head-bolt socket end and a Torque wrench. Oh and oil filter removal tool, as you'll need to drain the coolant and the oil first, and take the (rusty) exhaust manifold of too :-(
See what Haynes use/suggest for the job.
James
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I understand the head must be skimmed, however a lot of people are speculating that it will happen again unless i put a different engine in which is making me unsure of whether to put a different, used head on. Seems cheaper and easier than replacing the whole engine.
Can someone clarify this?
Thanks javalin, you're the first person to help me understand what i have to do instead of suggesting i put a different engine in haha
While its off, do you suggest i replace the cam belt too? I've heard this is a VERY difficult job to undertake, but i assume it will be easier once i've basically got the head off.
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>While its off, do you suggest i replace the cam belt too?
its like anything - cambelt is easy if you know what you're doing. The 8v is easy, and there are good guides around. However if you get it wrong, you will be putting a new engine in.... Yes always replace the belt & tensioner if it comes off.
>I understand the head must be skimmed
yes - my understanding is that its always a good idea if the head is off.
I don't see the logic of shoving another second hand engine in that you don't know the history of. I also don't see why it should happen again unless there is an underlying fault with your current engine. There is no guarentee that the replacement engine HG won't go next year of course.
A headgasket change is easier in my book than a whole new engine, and at least you know where you are with the current one.
James
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Get a flat piece of something, some fine sand paper and spend a few hours skimming it yourself.
I did mine one night, constantly rubbing a course paper over the head - if the head is perfect flat then the coarse paper will scratch everywhere! Then re-do the fine paper again. I know I only saved £47 and there's a head shop right near my work but that isn't the point, I tried it and got satisfaction out of doing it myself.
Cambelt - your taking head of therefore your removing the belt so you would be a fool not to replace. You will also need head bolts as you can't reuse. Euro charge £36 go 21 bolts (vr) so I'd assume it will be cheape for a gti
Make sure your crank is at TDC before touching the belt... Or anything for that matter
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And if you decide to donut yourself you'll also need a valve compressor (stick each valve in polystyrene and mark them up)
Lap your valves - paste and tool cheap and easy
Stem seals - again cheap and easy
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Note that you don't need to do any head work for a head gasket, apart from skimming.
I would take to a machine shop personally.
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Ahaha well the issue is that i don't really know what i'm doing, but i wouldn't mind learning. What possible ways can it go wrong?
Also, i've only had the car 5 days... so i don't really know the exact history of it other than looking at the service history.
I'm not sure i'd feel extremely comfortable skimming it myself, as i don't know if its cracked or buggered beyond repair.
Valve compressor? LAP MY VALVES?! Please dont say i HAVE to do this?! I already feel like im in over my head :grin:
EDIT:
Thank god, i was about ready to just whip out the cash and take it to the garage if i had to do all of that haha
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sounds like you are. Perhaps best to get it done by the garage, and start learning with some servicing work (oil change, water change, plugs etc).
If you get this wrong its new engine time, and a fair bit of time and expense doing it too.
James
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I can easily service my car and play with ancillaries, its just when it comes to the main block where i get confused as if i get stuck i don't really have anyone there to tell me how to do it right. I've never fiddled with internals before and I don't wanna balls it up
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>I've never fiddled with internals before and I don't wanna balls it up
read the haynes manual section and see what you think then.
James
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Will do when i get off work,
Thanks for your help so far! Seriously appreciated
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My car smoked so I just assumed it was the stem seals, what I did was buy another head then learn off that - this way meant I could still use my car upto the weekend I'd swap things over. So I had time to play/learn.
Also have the benefit of mates in the trade (one at awesome gti) to borrow valve compressor off etc.
To be fair it was quite easy but I was in the same boat as you (no mk3 pun :grin:), I'm quite handy with ancillaries etc but taking engine apart was new territory.
After it was all built up again it still smoked :grin: and I took it all back apart (another new gasket an bolts) and took my pistons out and changed the rings and bottom end bearings etc. which again seemed haunting but was infact ok - would Of been easier if I hadn't balls'd up on something but you live and learn eh
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Pop your bonnet and have a look - a good look - around the engine bay. The head is basically the top half of the engine, down to about the level of the casting that the oil filter screws in to.
Start to work out how you will take all those pipes and connectors off in a way that you will know how they all go back together right.
Look down the back of the engine. Somehow you have to take the inlet and exhaust manifolds off that you can hardly see, let alone get tools on.
Then go indoors, have a beer (or whatever) and have a good think about whether you are up for it.
It is not impossible or intellectually challenging. You just need to be steady and methodical and be ready with a plan if you snap a rusty bolt or stud. And have the tools to cope with that.
But you really need to be up for it so that you can overcome the inevitable problems (like rusty, snapped bolts) that you will be faced with.
If you are up for it (and I hope you are) the Haynes manual is a good start.
Having studied the flatness of aluminium castings I would go for the local machine shop every time. A milled surface is a whole lot flatter than one sanded with the help of flat plates. (For some reason the sanding works more around the edges - so the middle is good and flat but the outsides get a radius from the sanding process).
As far as making sure it never goes again:
1. Buy a genuine VAG head gasket.
2. Get your head machined flat.
3. Follow the torque procedure for the head bolts in the manual to the letter.
4. Use the correct coolant. Incorrect coolant can cause HG failure.
5. Keep your whole coolant system in tip top shape. Do not tolerate any sign of overheating or running cool. Both stress the head gasket in different ways.
I have done a few heads and I wouldn't want to start with my 8v one. Mainly because access is so bleedin tight.
Luckily I am old enough to have started with old Fords that you could almost stand in the engine bay to work around.
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Sometimes little tips help when you dont have the proper tool
I had a head bolt snap into the block when i did mine, not even a man sized pair of mole grips made an effort to budge it! So i got a socket just too small and smashed it on, came out a treat.
Id say give it a go mate, you can always come on here for any help thats (hopefully) not needed :cool:
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my issue after head gasket change was the place that did my skimming put the valve stem oil seals in wrong and now its smoking loads and burning oil.... im now 20v turboing it!
you seem like you wouldnt be able to do it, could either pay someone off here to help or see if any mates can if you want it done cheaper
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Thanks for all your advice everyone.
I'm gonna go speak to the garage on Monday and talk about my options. I already know that its £450 all in for a headgasket change, so i'm gonna ask how much it would be if i supplied the parts, or how much it would be for them to fit a used engine for me.
Push comes to shove, i will attempt it myself and if i bugger up i'll be coming on here waving my arms about
I don't really know any mechanically minded people and pretty much all of my friends don't care about cars because they can't drive yet haha. I'd love for someone on this forum to come and do it for me, but the majority seem to live down south.
Anyway, thanks again and any more advice is appreciated as i'd like to get as many opinions as possible
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so i'm gonna ask how much it would be if i supplied the parts
Garages get trade price so cheaper than it would be to for you to buy
My advise would be to sit down with some coffee (or a monster) and learn how to time your engine up - for me that would be the most difficult
Also if you go spending £450 is the car worth that + the initial price tag?
What ive spent on my engine is money i wont get close to seeing again :sad: but ive a healthy vr to rip around everywhere :evil:
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Even if it is cheaper for them to get parts, if i supply them then i know that i won't get crap put in my car. But to be honest, letting them do an engine swap for me seems a lot cheaper right about now. Just have to wait until monday where i can get a printed quote. Wish i could get a round about sum now, as its hell not being able to drive it!
Think it'll have to be beer other than monster and coffee haha. That was a concern of mine, but i looked up how to do a cambelt and know where some of the timing marks are and what to do(ish). I've gotta say, i still don't feel extremely comfortable and if i let them engine swap i can keep the old one and fiddle about with that!
Did a straight swap for a Ford Focus that was getting tired. Such a boring grandad car...
Wish i could afford the VR6 insurance and running costs, i'd snap one up in a second
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Buying a decent engine + a garages labour? Easily adds up
Id say swapping an engine would be alot easier it just needs a hoist and some help.
Atleast if you had the HG done then you would know its been done
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I'm sorry to say that i little or no faith in garages so i would rather do the job myself and take my time and know its been done properly than hand it over to a 'fitter' who will probably end up using online instructions to do the job themselves.
The 8v is not a complicated engine to work on and providing you make sure you have all the tools and parts you need then you shouldn't have any problems although bear in mind it's been in the car a long time and most bolts and fixings will be 'well bedded in', personally i would take the head to a machine shop to have it skimmed as it will be spot on then and i would replace the everything that can be replaced as it'll be one less thing to worry about.
The most important thing is to make sure everything is spotlessly clean on re-assembly as even a small piece of debris in the bores of the engine can cause huge problems and allow plenty of time to do the job so your not under pressure to have it back on the road.
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my issue after head gasket change was the place that did my skimming put the valve stem oil seals in wrong and now its smoking loads and burning oil....
Was that the eventual problem?! Hope you went back and got some sort of a refund!
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I know that this advice goes against the idea of this forum, but if you do the job and it goes wrong who can you complain to ?. If the garage does the job and it goes wrong at least you should have some form of redress against the garage.
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In my experience any garage that fouls up a job on a car instantly attempts to wash their hands of it and will attempt to pass the blame on to the customer.