GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk4 => Golf mk4 TDI => Topic started by: volatilebear on 20 May 2012, 13:14
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Hi there,
I am new to all of this so please bear with me. I have just purchased a Golf GT TDI 150 and had it for 4 weeks, after the first 2 weeks I noticed the car went into limp mode and produced black smoke. I was doing 70 on a slight gradient in 4th car then suddenly noticed I was in limp mode with black smoke.
I wanted to get an ECU remap and a diagnostic before to ensure that the car was fit for purpose but was obviously skeptical due to the recent limp mode issue. I did some research and found the R-TECH was one of the best places to go so I went along yesterday for a rolling road.
Nick ran the car through its paces and it brought up overboost and underboost issues. Unfortunately I do not have the original graph but the overboost started at 2300RPM and was at its peak of 3000RPM when power was applied for a good 10 seconds. I have the second graph but not sure if this highlights any relevant information, please see below:
(http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/839/limpmodeoverboost.jpg/)
They checked the turbo twice for sticky VNT and they said it seemed unlikely as there was so much play within the Turbo. He narrowed the problem down to most likely being.
1. N75 Valve
2. Vacuum pipes
3. Actuator on the turbo
Obviously I will be thrilled if option 1 and 2 resolve the issue however if its option 3 then everything gets a lot more expensive as a brand new OEM turbo is around £800. I know that there are other "cheaper" alternatives such as a second hand turbo (Nick advised to not get a reconditioned turbo as it will cause more issues than there worth), a failed turbo and remove the potentially working actuator and fit it to my turbo and ive also recently heard of the "Mr Muscle" cleaning method however this may not be an option as I am new to amatuer mechanics and do not have any tools.
I have done some research and it seems a lot of people are recommending VAG-COM software with the ODB2 II 409.1 lead off ebay however because of my lack of knowledge perhaps this is not a good avenue to go down? I know that you can control a lot of the cars characteristics which could potentially be confusing however perhaps for fault finding this is quite easy to use?
I am thinking that my best option would be to just purchase an OEM VW N75 valve, Vacuum pipes, any other small pipes that could be related and going to a rebutable independant VW specialist who won't try and scam me. Additionally, whilst the car is there, I would get an Allard EGR delete kit fitted and replace weeping boost pipes (Nick said weeping boost pipes wouldn't cause the overboost but are most likely faulty and in need of replacement so may as well do it at the same time).
I think the best method for someone like myself would be for me to purchase the cheaper componants OEM from a VW dealer and then to go through an independant VW specialist within my area who has experience with these issues and won't scam me. Additionally, they need to diagnose the car after the work has been carried out or perhaps I need to obtain a VAG-COM and do this myself? I am from the Hertfordshire,can you guys recommend any garages that fit this description, any you have personally had great experience with in perhaps a similar situation?
Additonally, I need some help with part numbers:
1. N75 Valve - 1K0 906 627A (Have been told its either A or B at the end> - Although I have heard its now this "Its been 1J0906627B and has changed to 1K0906627A in april 2007 apparently." - I have also been told its known as a Pressure Converter to the dealers? - Please advise
2. Vacuum pipes, Boost pipes and any other related pipes Partnumbers/Name - e.g Will the dealer understand what I am referring to if I ask for Vacuum and Boost pipes?
I want to say a big thanks to Nick and the guys at R-TECH for outstanding customer service, I will definitely be returning there once I have resolved my issues!
Thanks for your time and really appreicate any help.
Mark
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Changing the valve is something you can do yourself :afro:
It is mounted on the bulk head and easily to get to, the vac pipe can be had off ebay (silicone vac hose) you will need 3mm and 4mm to replace it all, just take a hose off at a time and cut the new peice to length and replace.
If you do need an actuator they can be had for about £65 from a turbo repair specialist although they will need setting up afterwards. You can check the actuator with a hand held vac pump, if it holds vacuum then it is ok :afro:
Neil
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I can't help with much of that but I can help with ETKA which confirms part being superceded as you mentioned...
(http://i.imgur.com/6zgeS.jpg)
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Midland VW have got a good reputation and would help you out. Your a bit far away though.
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A bit of reading for you:
Sticking VNT FAQ (http://uk-mkivs.net/forums/t/394072.aspx)
Vac line simplification (http://uk-mkivs.net/forums/t/393238.aspx) this has the valve layouts and connections in it too :afro:
Neil
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I have a spare N75 if you need it. I know it works as I bought it to see if mine was knackered and there no difference. Try a known working one before you fork out on a new one.
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Should you need an actuator these can be purchased fro Turbocharger Services near Huddersfield (01484 866671) from speaking to Chris the owner he can get replacement actuators for about £65.
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If you are planning on having it mapped in the future it maybe an option to get a forge one instead, I haven't read too much about them or heard any reviews. But for a bit extra dollar it maybe worth it...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/130555132078?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
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When I was going through the same thing Nick (r-Tech) said at the time that the standard one was fine and he wouldn't necessarily recomend fitting an uprated one when I asked.
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I tried the Forge Actuator on mine; i did a write up which should be kicking around somewhere. Basically I wouldnt bother; yes you can change the springs but none where really suited to the boost levels.
I had a standard one fitted in the end
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Thanks for the responses guys, much appreciated!
I am going to order a N75 valve tomorrow as per the new part number of 1K0906627A i (thanks for the offer of lending me your N75 scarr89 but think ill just buy it to save convenience and if its not necessary then Ebay - Would rather not borrow things off people as I may need it for a while whilst I diagnose!) and am going to buy some silicone vacuum hose.
Questions
1. Can a complete amatuer like me mess up the silicone hose replacement if I properly take my time to measure each existing hose and ensure they are firmly attached to each end?
2. After replacing the vacuum hose and N75 valve I will want to re-test the car myself. Is this something that can be done easily for a noob like myself using VAG-COM and a laptop?
3. How much 3mm and 4mm silicone hose should I purchase? seems to come in either 1/2 or 1 metres and you can get funky colours too, is it worth colour coding?
4. If it comes down to the Actuator not holding vacuum then I think I will go with a replacement one from a turbo specialist such as Chris from Turbocharger Services however someone mentioned that they will need setting up afterwards, how much labour are we talking? Anyone got a rough idea on price to fit a replacement Actuator?
5. Thanks for the recommendation of midlands VW but as discussed I think this is a little too far, anyone know any nearer decent garages within the london area just in case I run into problems?
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Disgred question 3 please - Just realise the guide explains lengths
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1. Can a complete amatuer like me mess up the silicone hose replacement if I properly take my time to measure each existing hose and ensure they are firmly attached to each end?
If you take a peice off at a time you can't really go wrong, if in doubt look at the diagrams in the links I posted :afro:
2. After replacing the vacuum hose and N75 valve I will want to re-test the car myself. Is this something that can be done easily for a noob like myself using VAG-COM and a laptop?
Yes - just log the boost channel (11) infor the engine in Vag-Com and graph the results - again instructions in the sticking VNT FAQ link
3. How much 3mm and 4mm silicone hose should I purchase? seems to come in either 1/2 or 1 metres and you can get funky colours too, is it worth colour coding?
Colour coding is entirely up to you, but length wise you would need 2m of each just to do the N75 and pipework not sure on how much is needed for the rest though
4. If it comes down to the Actuator not holding vacuum then I think I will go with a replacement one from a turbo specialist such as Chris from Turbocharger Services however someone mentioned that they will need setting up afterwards, how much labour are we talking? Anyone got a rough idea on price to fit a replacement Actuator?
It is something that can be done yoursef, set the rod on the new actuator to the same length as your old one then log the boost and adjust accordingly as per the sticking VNT FAQ, or you will need a tuning company with a rolling road like R-tech, good time to get a remap as well :tongue:
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1. Can a complete amatuer like me mess up the silicone hose replacement if I properly take my time to measure each existing hose and ensure they are firmly attached to each end?
If you take a peice off at a time you can't really go wrong, if in doubt look at the diagrams in the links I posted :afro:
Brilliant - I have one question though - Seeing as I plan on doing an EGR delete I may as well buy the Allard EGR delete kit now and do that first right? Additionally, I am right in saying that I will completely remove the Anti Shudder solenoid and all of the red cabling as per the diagram? The EGR N18 and Anti Shudder N239 still stay there or can those be removed as well?
2. After replacing the vacuum hose and N75 valve I will want to re-test the car myself. Is this something that can be done easily for a noob like myself using VAG-COM and a laptop?
Yes - just log the boost channel (11) infor the engine in Vag-Com and graph the results - again instructions in the sticking VNT FAQ link
Thankyou for that
3. How much 3mm and 4mm silicone hose should I purchase? seems to come in either 1/2 or 1 metres and you can get funky colours too, is it worth colour coding?
Colour coding is entirely up to you, but length wise you would need 2m of each just to do the N75 and pipework not sure on how much is needed for the rest though
Thanks
4. If it comes down to the Actuator not holding vacuum then I think I will go with a replacement one from a turbo specialist such as Chris from Turbocharger Services however someone mentioned that they will need setting up afterwards, how much labour are we talking? Anyone got a rough idea on price to fit a replacement Actuator?
It is something that can be done yoursef, set the rod on the new actuator to the same length as your old one then log the boost and adjust accordingly as per the sticking VNT FAQ, or you will need a tuning company with a rolling road like R-tech, good time to get a remap as well :tongue:
I think if it comes to this ill goto a specialist - Although, I am not sure if R-TECH can put an Actuator onto a turbo for me? Would be willing to pay well obviously! Nick? :)
Another question thats important as I am about to purchase parts - Nick mentioned I may as well replace boost pipes as I may have "weeping boost pipes" (apparanetly very common) -
1. What kind of tubing do I need?
2. Is this for the tubing that comes from the Intercooler?
3. Is this easy to do myself?
3. Does anyone have a diagram?
Thanks alot!
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http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=3mm+silicone+hose&_sacat=See-All-Categories
They are the boost pipes for all of your valves, pick your colour!
The boost pipes from the intercooler, IC, are expensive to replace brand new. You would be better of take all of the IC pipework off and replacing the seals on them. I'd imagine the seals can be had from the dealers and then it would be as easy as taking them all off, cleaning them, new seals and replacing. You would probably want to replace the gash C clips that they use as well. All of the seals and clips would come to less than £10 I'd guess.
The IC pipework is the big black one that goes into your EGR valve. Follow that all the way down to the IC and remove the bottom pipes (black 90deg bends I think :rolleyes:). You should only need to remove the under tray I believe!
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Thanks scarr89,
Just to confirm (stupid question) when you say "They are the boost pipes for all of your valves, pick your colour!" you are referring to the pipes for this guide correct? http://uk-mkivs.net/forums/t/393238.aspx?PageIndex=1 (http://uk-mkivs.net/forums/t/393238.aspx?PageIndex=1)
Additionally, If you are referring to this then I thought this guide requires both 3mm and 4mm?
What are the gash C clips? Will a dealer know what I am referring to if I ask for Intercooler pipe seals and gash c clips?
Thanks for the info regarding where to locate the IC boost pipes - I am a complete noob to this but im feeling confident! :smug:
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The boost pipes and vac hoses are different -
The vac lines are the 3 and 4mm ones to the valves and actuator.
The boost hoses run from the turbo to the intercooler and then from intercooler to EGR valve.
On the end of each boost hose there is a seal and metal clip that holds the connections together, these are liable to wear causing the leaks.
If you fit the EGR delete you can leave the old valves on the bulkhead or remove them - up to you. I left mine (without any pipes connected) still plugged in to the electrics so I don't get any fault codes stored in memory.
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Found my review of the Forge Actuator
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=146824.0
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Old_no7 and Rhyso are diesel oracles...I'll leave it up to them to aid you :embarassed: :grin:
Interesting read on the forge actuator Rhyso, interesting results also. Needless to say I won't be getting one in the future. Why and or how do you think it gave those results compared to a stock actuator? :undecided:
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Old_no7 and Rhyso are diesel oracles...I'll leave it up to them to aid you :embarassed: :grin:
Interesting read on the forge actuator Rhyso, interesting results also. Needless to say I won't be getting one in the future. Why and or how do you think it gave those results compared to a stock actuator? :undecided:
I think it was mostly down to the spring; as far as I'm aware although the springs are the same between the 007p and that actuator because diesels run much higher boost figures then the actuator was unable to control the vanes properly. I think with a dedicated spring it MAY have done the job
What you have to be careful when replacing the actuator is that its worked with your turbo over a considerable mileage and has worn in with it. The setup has to be absolutely spot on otherwise...........
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Old_no7 and Rhyso are diesel oracles...I'll leave it up to them to aid you :embarassed: :grin:
Interesting read on the forge actuator Rhyso, interesting results also. Needless to say I won't be getting one in the future. Why and or how do you think it gave those results compared to a stock actuator? :undecided:
I think it was mostly down to the spring; as far as I'm aware although the springs are the same between the 007p and that actuator because diesels run much higher boost figures then the actuator was unable to control the vanes properly. I think with a dedicated spring it MAY have done the job
What you have to be careful when replacing the actuator is that its worked with your turbo over a considerable mileage and has worn in with it. The setup has to be absolutely spot on otherwise...........
Makes sense I guess. Did you 'report' your findings back to forge at all? Would be interesting to see what they say about it. That last bit, are you saying that the actuator was too 'new' for the 'state' of your turbo? As in the non dedicated spring wasn't worn in enough? Which makes me think that if you fitted a brand new stock actuator that you may have similar issues as it would brand new compared to the turbo? :huh:
At least that is how I read that last bit :lipsrsealed:
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Makes sense I guess. Did you 'report' your findings back to forge at all? Would be interesting to see what they say about it. That last bit, are you saying that the actuator was too 'new' for the 'state' of your turbo? As in the non dedicated spring wasn't worn in enough? Which makes me think that if you fitted a brand new stock actuator that you may have similar issues as it would brand new compared to the turbo? :huh:
At least that is how I read that last bit :lipsrsealed:
Possibly and yes that's the line of thinking I was on about as my turbo expired about 3 months later :cry: It could be due to a number of things; I couldn't pinpoint an exact cause but chasing an RS4 and red-lining it probably didn't help :lipsrsealed: :grin: :grin:
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Makes sense I guess. Did you 'report' your findings back to forge at all? Would be interesting to see what they say about it. That last bit, are you saying that the actuator was too 'new' for the 'state' of your turbo? As in the non dedicated spring wasn't worn in enough? Which makes me think that if you fitted a brand new stock actuator that you may have similar issues as it would brand new compared to the turbo? :huh:
At least that is how I read that last bit :lipsrsealed:
Possibly and yes that's the line of thinking I was on about as my turbo expired about 3 months later :cry: It could be due to a number of things; I couldn't pinpoint an exact cause but chasing an RS4 and red-lining it probably didn't help :lipsrsealed: :grin: :grin:
We are all guilty... :lipsrsealed: :rolleyes: :grin:
Anyway...Volatilebear...Keep us posted! :wink:
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Old_no7 and Rhyso are diesel oracles...I'll leave it up to them to aid you :embarassed: :grin:
Interesting read on the forge actuator Rhyso, interesting results also. Needless to say I won't be getting one in the future. Why and or how do you think it gave those results compared to a stock actuator? :undecided:
I think it was mostly down to the spring; as far as I'm aware although the springs are the same between the 007p and that actuator because diesels run much higher boost figures then the actuator was unable to control the vanes properly. I think with a dedicated spring it MAY have done the job
What you have to be careful when replacing the actuator is that its worked with your turbo over a considerable mileage and has worn in with it. The setup has to be absolutely spot on otherwise...........
So if the N75 and pipes doesn't resolve the issue and I have to go down the Actuator route where I intend to buy one and get it fitted. How hard is the fitting going to be as I am a complete amateur, hopefully a good specialist will have no problems?
I am really trying to avoid the purchase of a new Turbo, the guys at R-TECH checked my turbo twice and said it wasn't sticky at all - lots of play - so I am hoping its not going to be a £800+ bill?
I will be honest with you, I have only just bought the car and I am thinking perhaps its just easier to sell the whole thing and take my chances with another? Although perhaps that will have other issues? Buying second hand cars always seems a lottery and I always seem to have bad luck - Any ideas on this thought?
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So if the N75 and pipes doesn't resolve the issue and I have to go down the Actuator route where I intend to buy one and get it fitted. How hard is the fitting going to be as I am a complete amateur, hopefully a good specialist will have no problems?
I am really trying to avoid the purchase of a new Turbo, the guys at R-TECH checked my turbo twice and said it wasn't sticky at all - lots of play - so I am hoping its not going to be a £800+ bill?
I will be honest with you, I have only just bought the car and I am thinking perhaps its just easier to sell the whole thing and take my chances with another? Although perhaps that will have other issues? Buying second hand cars always seems a lottery and I always seem to have bad luck - Any ideas on this thought?
You need access to ramps etc as its fiddily to fit
Lots of play? In the shaft? If so then your turbo is a ticking time bomb; there should be minimal play in it.........
I bought my turbo for around £450 which was a new genuine item; think I then paid approx £200 to have it fitted. If you end up with a new turbo they mark the actuator with paint; this is supposedly the correct position for it and in theory should bolt straight to the car. However, in my case, this was not accurate and I had very little boost from idle until 2000rpm. I couldn't be bothered to get it sorted so sold the car on
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This pic might help
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h208/old_n07/engine/IC/vnt2.jpg)
As Rhyso said get the car on ramps and you should be able to do it from underneath the car.
1. Remove the clip from the lever (careful not to loose it!!)
2. Take actuator arm off leaver by sliding to the side
3. Disconnect vac pipe
4. Undo the bracket holding the acuator from the turbo body circled in red (2 bolts) - don't bother with the ones that are shown with the spanner on until you have it on the bench
5. Set rod on new actuator to exactly the same length as old one
6. Swap old and new on the bracket
7. Re- fit bracket to turbo body, and then arm onto lever and fit clip.
8. Fit Vac line and then test :afro:
Get some plus gas to soak the bolts with too.
Actuator testing link (http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/a4/VNT-wastegate-adjust.htm) You will need to register to see all the post but well worth it :afro:
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Lots of play? In the shaft? If so then your turbo is a ticking time bomb; there should be minimal play in it.........
At a guess they were refering to the acuator leaver not feeling stiff or having reduced travel which would indicate crud build up on the VNT mech on the inside of the turbo :undecided:
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Lots of play? In the shaft? If so then your turbo is a ticking time bomb; there should be minimal play in it.........
At a guess they were refering to the acuator leaver not feeling stiff or having reduced travel which would indicate crud build up on the VNT mech on the inside of the turbo :undecided:
Hopefully otherwise its simply a matter of time :cry:
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Sorry guys! Perhaps I misinterupted what Nick said regarding the turbo as I was quite excited and had alot to talk about :) Right at the start before the rolling road his colleague checked the turbo for sticky VNT informed me that it was fine. After the rolling road he checked it himself and could not find sticky VNT.
Rhyso - When you purchased your Turbo I am assuming it came with an Actuator already fitted and surely if this is the case they would calibrate this correctly?
Perhaps I should just sell the car if its looking like its the Actuator as this seems to be a really complicated area as the Actuator has to be perfectly fitted and the right size? Or do you think I should persevere? I mean I have had some success stories with N75 resolving peoples issues! I kinda feel some attachment to my car, I know it sounds lame but I am sure you guys understand ;)
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A recon turbo from ECP is about £360 with forum discount and it comes with the actuator set up correctly (most of the time :rolleyes:) if you can fit it yourself it won't cost much more than that - just a couple of gaskets and a new oil feed line and about 5 or 6 hours of your time if you take it steady
If a garage fits it you will be looking at £300 to £400 in labour I'd have thought :undecided:
A new actuator is say £70 delivered, and a maybe a couple of hours fitting and setting up correctly so about £200 if you have a garage do it I'd have thought.
I wouldn't sell the car for the sake of that, if you don't want to tackle it yourself then take a trip up to R-tech and get Nick to fit it and set it up properly and then get your remap done at the same time :wink:
That is IF it turns out to be the actuator in the end anyway.
Neil
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Rhyso - When you purchased your Turbo I am assuming it came with an Actuator already fitted and surely if this is the case they would calibrate this correctly?
It did come with an actuator supposedly setup but it wasn't.
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Guys im having some major confusion issues with the fitting of the EGR
I've decided to keep the Vacuum Resevoir and was wondering If I still need to keep the Anti Shuuder N239 and Anti Shudder solenoid valve and vacuum hoses still connected? I ask this because ive heard if you keep the resevoir then you need to keep the anti shudder but please can you be specific as this is a little vague - Thanks
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Just remove the hoses that lead to the EGR, stick a screw in em and cable tie them up.
Just remove the hoses from the EGR, leave them plumbed into the valves, but just block them off. That is all you need to do. Leave everything else as is. :smiley:
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Lol I must be annoying yo now scarr89! :lipsrsealed: It just annoys me leaving a dangling tube but I guess I would rather do that then find the correct resistor!
I'm assuming its just one hose and the screw thread would be going into the silicone/rubber then attached the cable tie nice and tightly around this?
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Roger on your last comment. The cable tie is just extra to stop it coming out. That is how many people leave theirs. Mine included. Even if you remove it you don't need resistors.
http://uk-mkivs.net/forums/t/393238.aspx
Following that guide would be where you take out the 'parts' that are not needed once doing the EGR delete. But don't bother...
Screw and cable tie FTW! :grin:
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The main reason I didnt remap this car on the day was the way the bost was acting, if it was a quick 300-400mb over shoot spike at 2700rpm then I would have been happy to tune it as I would say 99% of all 150PD will have this overboost stock or tuned.
My major gripe was that the boost held 400-500mb over boost close around -800-1000rpm the took a dive to 300mb underboost, tuning the car would have resulted it the boost going way over 1.9bar, even upto 2.2bar.
The VNT arm and actuator moved nice and free, both me and Jim checked it twice by and and mini vac pump, plus the actuator diaphragm reaction time was spot on, but this dont mean the actuator is 100%.
To sort this car out a lot of logging and trial and error testing is needed, start with the basics clean the erg and inlet manifol at the same time replace all the old vac lines. If still over boosting change the N75 valve, if that dont cure it then change the actuator.
I can and will be a pain to diagnose.
Nick