GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk6 => Topic started by: dragongreengolfgti on 27 April 2012, 21:37
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Hi guys if your not aware i have a few friends working at forge motorsport in gloucester. They are after a mk6 golf gti for two weeks to do development on. Benefits from this will include there very own induction kit free of charge for your troubles :smiley: these kits are proven to add very beneficial gains in bhp from there set up which you can ask about regarding the mk5 gti iirc it made 20 bhp. My very good friend also a member on here jamieR32 is one of the development engineers based at this very recognisable tuning company.
Here is there request from there facebook page found here https://www.facebook.com/ForgeMotorsport (https://www.facebook.com/ForgeMotorsport)
Forge UK are looking for a Golf Mk6 Gti for development. We will need the car for 2 weeks and you will receive a free intake. Please email jamie@forgemotorsport.co.uk for more information.
If you do wish to take this up please mention which forum you are from when emailing jamie thanks for reading
Mike
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Sounds interesting but 20bhp from a induction kit I can't believe unless I see proof...
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Sounds interesting but 20bhp from a induction kit I can't believe unless I see proof...
Its very interesting i wish i had one to give to them they will be trying new designs for front mount inter-coolers pipe work there twintertake induction system and most probably various valves etc what ever they need to do your car would be the first to have it made that alone is a good thing :smiley: dont quote me on that figure but im sure it was somewhere near that they do alot of different set ups and there twintertake is a big hit on alot of models. It basically comprises of two inclosed induction kits within one only they do it and it makes a big difference :smiley: check out there facebook page and there website mate and see im sure they have the figures from rolling road before and after figures somewhere i will ask my mate where the figures are for sure :smiley:
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Sounds interesting but 20bhp from a induction kit I can't believe unless I see proof...
Its very interesting i wish i had one to give to them they will be trying new designs for front mount inter-coolers pipe work there twintertake induction system and most probably various valves etc what ever they need to do your car would be the first to have it made that alone is a good thing :smiley: dont quote me on that figure but im sure it was somewhere near that they do alot of different set ups and there twintertake is a big hit on alot of models. It basically comprises of two inclosed induction kits within one only they do it and it makes a big difference :smiley: check out there facebook page and there website mate and see im sure they have the figures from rolling road before and after figures somewhere i will ask my mate where the figures are for sure :smiley:
So basically you'd have to drive to them, give them your car for 2 weeks, let them rip it apart and put it back together numerous times and rag it around to test for something worth £200-300?
Not for me thanks!
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Sounds interesting but 20bhp from a inductionhdquote me on that figure but im sure it was somewhere near that they do alot of different set ups and there twintertake is a big hit on alot of models. It basically comprises of two inclosed induction kits within one only they do it and it makes a big difference :smiley: check out there facebook page and there website mate and see im sure they have the figures from rolling road before and after figures somewhere i will ask my mate where the figures are for sure :smiley:
So basically you'd have to drive to them, give them your car for 2 weeks, let them rip it apart and put it back together numerous times and rag it around to test for something worth £200-300?
Not for me thanks!
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the way you put that is very dramatic however yes they will probably take it apart carefully to do the mods they need to which shouldnt be alot different from the mk5 then test it at there proffesional rolling road where it wont be ragged as you word it this is a professional company which handle cars far more superior than a mk6 golf . they are the leading suppliers to do with vag cars and most people would jump to this opportunity i understand where your coming from cheers
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I'm not a fan of these "lend us your car so we can make money" type things, i'm sure there are people that are up for it but i always think it's the easy way to do it? Imo they should buy a mk6, do ALL the r&d they need then sell it on.
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So basically you'd have to drive to them, give them your car for 2 weeks, let them rip it apart and put it back together numerous times and rag it around to test for something worth £200-300?
Not for me thanks!
my thought exactly. you would have to be bloody mental.
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I'm not posting as a mod.
But sort of on topic, people often ask me why I have not mapped or modified mine yet.
The main reason is I'm a r&d design engineer and I have always found it laffable that companies in the car world seem to think a couple of days or weeks is enough for r&d if I did that in any other engineering field I would be shot. My just release machine after design and computer simulation and modeling I did pre production in house testing for 18 months then 3 pre production prototypes have spent time in 3 different countries been tested for the past 4 months doing the job they were intended for 2 of them in some of the harshest environments going. Even then they really need more testing and evaluation but overruled by the md as the people evaluating want to buy lots of them and also were a very small company.
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I don't see the issue...
They want it for an inlet kit...hardly car threatening to a company as well respected as Forge.
People are happy to fit aftermarket HIDs, different springs, wheels of questionable quality, lowering springs of unknown poundage etc...do you think they have all been R&D'd properly?
At the end of the day, if you design a replacement part based around the space available and try it on the dyno...it works, or it doesn't.
I'd be happy to lend them my car for 2 weeks if I lived more local.
Forge have fabricated several one-off/special parts for me over the years, and I've never been anything but impressed by their attitude and service.
Only one thing concerning me...
Forge tried to make a Mk6 version of the Twintake a couple of years ago, and couldn't get it to make any more power than a more traditional inlet kit...so I'm wondering why they are having another go at it?
As for the gains, the Mk5 GTI uses a different inlet set-up...and the Forge Twintake gave a dyno proven gain of 14-18 BHP I think, on a mapped car.
There are too many independant dyno plots proving proper gains for it to be a fluke.
But, I did hear from someone within Forge that the Mk6 Twintake didn't deliver what was expected.
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I think the fact that it's Forge I wouldnt worry but to lose your car for 2 weeks and get a few hundred quid isnt worth it to anyone IMO.
Now if it was Akrapovic asking the same thing and in return you received a Titanium/Carbon exhaust system woth £5k then show me where to sign up.
Jim
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Is this serious?
A wind up surely.
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I think the fact that it's Forge I wouldnt worry but to lose your car for 2 weeks and get a few hundred quid isnt worth it to anyone IMO.
Jim
That depends on where you work doesn't it?
If you work abroad or offshore, then it doesn't matter if you are without your car when you are away...so I'm sure there are people who are happy to be without.
When Star Performance developed a FMIC with Forge for the 8L S3, I was without my car for 4 weeks...and I was paying for that, not getting it free!
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I cant give any more info than what i have said really guys i understand its a big ask to be without a car for 2 weeks etc and i know you wont be getting a nice shiney new exhaust for free but this is how forge like to operate. They could buy there own mk6 if they really wanted to infact there us department has there own. They like to give customers the opportunity to give something aswell as giving something back.
Ess_three i do think there trying a new set up which could possibly do the trick but without a car they cannot find out as you understand these guys don't rest untill they have perfected something in a similar way with the 007p and 008 dv valve. I have high respect for this company and I myself hope to be working for them next year :smiley:
I did think it may be a good idea to ask on the forum and asked my mate before hand if he wanted me too as this is where the golf guys live (and audi) :grin: i can tell already this is'nt such a good idea now :sad:
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the way you put that is very dramatic however yes they will probably take it apart carefully to do the mods they need to which shouldnt be alot different from the mk5 then test it at there proffesional rolling road where it wont be ragged as you word it this is a professional company which handle cars far more superior than a mk6 golf . they are the leading suppliers to do with vag cars and most people would jump to this opportunity i understand where your coming from cheers
I wouldn't say "most people would jump to this opportunity" but if someone does, great, it can only help to have more products available = lower, more competitive prices. Anyway, thanks for posting this :cool:
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If I was after a new intake system, I would not have a problem with Forge using my car as a guinea pig, they are a well respected Co and very professional at what they do,
But I am quite content with my Carbonio :smiley:
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^^^ That's what I thought Neil, but Forge had my Mk6 for a week to try to develop a Twintake before the for Mk6 which was unsuccessful and can say it's not something I would recommend people do.
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Oooh! Spill, why not? :tongue:
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^^^ That's what I thought Neil, but Forge had my Mk6 for a week to try to develop a Twintake before the for Mk6 which was unsuccessful and can say it's not something I would recommend people do.
:rolleyes: do tell more :rolleyes:
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'scuse me mister can I ave a lend of yer motor for a couple of weeks.??
Give us a bell before you deliver it as we're a bit busy at the moment.
We'll look after it (honest) and if we break it then you can always try and claim on your guarantee thingy.
We'll add a couple of bits to your motor to make up for the petrol......
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Would be a better deal if they were to offer every mod they do for the mk6 methinks. :drool:
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^^^ That's what I thought Neil, but Forge had my Mk6 for a week to try to develop a Twintake before the for Mk6 which was unsuccessful and can say it's not something I would recommend people do.
Yeah come on Steve we wonna know more...
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A while back when I was up at Crail I ran into a guy who had donated his Megane RS 250 to Forge for development work on a FMIC. He was happy enough with the intercooler once he had his car back but they had altered all his software (basically installed a half-assed map onto his car) which had to be completely redone (obviously not at the dealers) and they had left his exhaust completely misaligned. He wasn't that impressed with the overall package although the intercooler itself was good.
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A while back when I was up at Crail I ran into a guy who had donated his Megane RS 250 to Forge for development work on a FMIC. He was happy enough with the intercooler once he had his car back but they had altered all his software (basically installed a half-assed map onto his car) which had to be completely redone (obviously not at the dealers) and they had left his exhaust completely misaligned. He wasn't that impressed with the overall package although the intercooler itself was good.
Oh dear, so I guess...if there is anyone out there willing enough to lend there pride and joy, BE WARNED!!
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I'm not specifically having a go at Forge - I think their products are very good. More just to warn people that development work is very much "in progress".
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Theres members on here with their own business that buy cars to do r&d then sell them on afterwards, surely a company as well known as Forge should be able to do the same? :sad:
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Theres members on here with their own business that buy cars to do r&d then sell them on afterwards, surely a company as well known as Forge should be able to do the same? :sad:
Or even talk to a dealership about hiring one - anything's possible!
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Theres members on here with their own business that buy cars to do r&d then sell them on afterwards, surely a company as well known as Forge should be able to do the same? :sad:
Or even talk to a dealership about hiring one - anything's possible!
This was discussed back when the original plea was made which SteveP is referring to. For the amount of products which Forge Motorsport develop (and the range of vehicles they cater for) it would be impractical for them to acquire each individual vehicle through purchase. Even if they did sell them on.
As for dealerships... well Mountune certainly has access to Ford's R&D but I doubt VW would hand out models freely for punters to tinker with.
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Theres members on here with their own business that buy cars to do r&d then sell them on afterwards, surely a company as well known as Forge should be able to do the same? :sad:
Or even talk to a dealership about hiring one - anything's possible!
This was discussed back when the original plea was made which SteveP is referring to. For the amount of products which Forge Motorsport develop (and the range of vehicles they cater for) it would be impractical for them to acquire each individual vehicle through purchase. Even if they did sell them on.
As for dealerships... well Mountune certainly has access to Ford's R&D but I doubt VW would hand out models freely for punters to tinker with.
Maybe not freely but I'm sure a dealership would be happy to make a bit of £££ out of a used GTI that's sitting on their forecourt
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Theres members on here with their own business that buy cars to do r&d then sell them on afterwards, surely a company as well known as Forge should be able to do the same? :sad:
Or even talk to a dealership about hiring one - anything's possible!
This was discussed back when the original plea was made which SteveP is referring to. For the amount of products which Forge Motorsport develop (and the range of vehicles they cater for) it would be impractical for them to acquire each individual vehicle through purchase. Even if they did sell them on.
As for dealerships... well Mountune certainly has access to Ford's R&D but I doubt VW would hand out models freely for punters to tinker with.
Maybe not freely but I'm sure a dealership would be happy to make a bit of £££ out of a used GTI that's sitting on their forecourt
That's true. But I'm sure they be deterred by the potential clean-up should the "tinkerer" make a mistake or two.
And perhaps more importantly, would you trust a dealer who did so? I doubt any dealer who rented the car for tuning development would freely disclose such use of the vehicle to a potential customer. :lipsrsealed:
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good to see forge are still after one, they were still on the hunt at Autosport back in January when i last spoke Alex who said they couldn't get the twin take to work as were having noise issues with it, i declined their generous off back then given i'm not a fanboy of their stuff and two weeks is really taking the p$ss
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I don't think anyone in their right mind would donate their MK6.... :rolleyes:
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And presumably your car would be without any form of insurance cover during the two week period.
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To address the points in the order they were raised :
We would like to thank the original poster for posting on our behalf for a loan development car ..however we feel we should also respond to some of the points raised as it casts rather a shadow over our business practises .
To the customer with the S3 , during the intercooler development with Star performance , we didn’t charge Star for the intercooler work so we really can’t held responsible if they charged you .. if we had been working with you directly it would have been for free …
Steve, I am sorry if you are not happy …but to my knowledge you haven’t contacted us in any way since you left to say that you were unhappy with the time your car spent here. As I recall we reached a mutually agreeable figure for compensation for us having your car, it was filled with fuel and had a professional valet. If you are in any way unhappy then can I ask that you email either Jamie or Chris at forgemotorsport.co.uk. I feel its a little unfair to hint on a public forum that you were unhappy when you have never given us a chance to put it right.
To explain the Development procedure …the development of any product is much more than the few days/weeks that we have a car in for.
Due to our longstanding involvement in the VAG marketplace we are able to do quite a bit of R&D without a car at all.
With regards the Golf 6 intake, we already have a mock-up ready to test. It may be that it will work out of the box, in which case the customer will only be without a car for a few days. The twintake is simply incompatible with the revised MAF fitted on European spec GTi’s (not ED35’s though) so we are testing a single intake, a variant of which we have tested for the past year on our own Audi TTS.
Yes in an ideal world we would have the money to buy each car for development, do all our testing and R&D, then sell the car on, but it’s just not practical for the amount of products and markets we cater for.
For example in the last couple of months we have had in the shop for 2 - 3 weeks or more in total a Nissan GTR , Porsche 996 & 997 , Megane 250 , Audi TT , MKV Golf , all for different products . I think it unreasonable to think we would purchase or finance all these vehicles… When we are looking at a long term project then we will buy the car , ( such as Golf MK7 ) already listed as waiting with 5 dealers.
Most tuners who are developing products will do this Revo – Milltek etc.
When we test ANY products we do not simply “ rag the car round the track “ the process is always explained to the customer before we take the vehicle , We use an independent rolling road for the dyno tests and we test on a quiet section of dual carriage way , within the speed limits when doing engine/ ECU / Data logging .
All the cars are insured fully comprehensive and so are the drivers in a separate trade policy , the cars are stored at night in a secure , CCTV , Red Care alarmed premises .
IF something goes wrong with the car we take care of it …
On the Megane RS250, this is merely hearsay . This was back in the day when only RS Tuning were marketing a remap for the Megane. The customer didn’t want to pay RS Tuning to map it, and asked us to do so, which we did, but didn’t turn everything up to 11 as a dedicated Renault tuner maybe would have done. We took the customer to the dyno (FOC) and rolling roaded the car in front of him BEFORE he paid any money so he knew he was getting a lower power map. He left very happy. It definitely wasn’t a half assed map, it just didn’t deliver the same peak power as an RS Tuning map. As for the exhaust comment, we have never fitted exhausts on any customer car so any misalignment was not down to us.
Maybe our way of getting cars in for development isn’t to everybodys taste, but its not unusual in the industry at all. We have had some interest so we hope to be bringing a new Golf Mk6 intake to market soon.
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To address the points in the order they were raised :
We would like to thank the original poster for posting on our behalf for a loan development car ..however we feel we should also respond to some of the points raised as it casts rather a shadow over our business practises .
To the customer with the S3 , during the intercooler development with Star performance , we didn’t charge Star for the intercooler work so we really can’t held responsible if they charged you .. if we had been working with you directly it would have been for free …
Steve, I am sorry if you are not happy …but to my knowledge you haven’t contacted us in any way since you left to say that you were unhappy with the time your car spent here. As I recall we reached a mutually agreeable figure for compensation for us having your car, it was filled with fuel and had a professional valet. If you are in any way unhappy then can I ask that you email either Jamie or Chris at forgemotorsport.co.uk. I feel its a little unfair to hint on a public forum that you were unhappy when you have never given us a chance to put it right.
To explain the Development procedure …the development of any product is much more than the few days/weeks that we have a car in for.
Due to our longstanding involvement in the VAG marketplace we are able to do quite a bit of R&D without a car at all.
With regards the Golf 6 intake, we already have a mock-up ready to test. It may be that it will work out of the box, in which case the customer will only be without a car for a few days. The twintake is simply incompatible with the revised MAF fitted on European spec GTi’s (not ED35’s though) so we are testing a single intake, a variant of which we have tested for the past year on our own Audi TTS.
Yes in an ideal world we would have the money to buy each car for development, do all our testing and R&D, then sell the car on, but it’s just not practical for the amount of products and markets we cater for.
For example in the last couple of months we have had in the shop for 2 - 3 weeks or more in total a Nissan GTR , Porsche 996 & 997 , Megane 250 , Audi TT , MKV Golf , all for different products . I think it unreasonable to think we would purchase or finance all these vehicles… When we are looking at a long term project then we will buy the car , ( such as Golf MK7 ) already listed as waiting with 5 dealers.
Most tuners who are developing products will do this Revo – Milltek etc.
When we test ANY products we do not simply “ rag the car round the track “ the process is always explained to the customer before we take the vehicle , We use an independent rolling road for the dyno tests and we test on a quiet section of dual carriage way , within the speed limits when doing engine/ ECU / Data logging .
All the cars are insured fully comprehensive and so are the drivers in a separate trade policy , the cars are stored at night in a secure , CCTV , Red Care alarmed premises .
IF something goes wrong with the car we take care of it …
On the Megane RS250, this is merely hearsay . This was back in the day when only RS Tuning were marketing a remap for the Megane. The customer didn’t want to pay RS Tuning to map it, and asked us to do so, which we did, but didn’t turn everything up to 11 as a dedicated Renault tuner maybe would have done. We took the customer to the dyno (FOC) and rolling roaded the car in front of him BEFORE he paid any money so he knew he was getting a lower power map. He left very happy. It definitely wasn’t a half assed map, it just didn’t deliver the same peak power as an RS Tuning map. As for the exhaust comment, we have never fitted exhausts on any customer car so any misalignment was not down to us.
Maybe our way of getting cars in for development isn’t to everybodys taste, but its not unusual in the industry at all. We have had some interest so we hope to be bringing a new Golf Mk6 intake to market soon.
Respect for personally coming on here and explaining your position.... :wink:
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Agreed. I'll be honest and say it doesn't change my mind about donating my car but fair play for coming on here and addressing what's being said.
It was myself who made the comments about the Megane RS. The term "half assed" was a paraphrase of what the guy said to me at the time. I understand your explanation of his map being down on power but certainly on that day at the drag strip he wasn't happy after he got beat :grin: and the map was what he blamed. Based on what you have explained I'm happy that any fault with the map is not down to negligence or being "half assed" but more to do with being "half-fat". :smiley:
I'm not in a position to judge either way about the exhaust. I can only repeat what he conveyed to me at the time.
As I said however in my original post on here, he was very happy with his FMIC.
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Respect for personally coming on here and explaining your position.... :wink:
+1
So Forge, what will you be doing with this donor car? As the OP says, "they will be trying new designs for front mount inter-coolers pipe work there twintertake induction system and most probably various valves etc" but you only mentioned testing an intake?
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To the customer with the S3 , during the intercooler development with Star performance , we didn’t charge Star for the intercooler work so we really can’t held responsible if they charged you .. if we had been working with you directly it would have been for free …
I think you picked me up wrong...
I was happy my car was there. I was happy to pay. Star did the measuring, you did the fabrication and Russell Butt organised it being anodised black at my request...I was delighted with the result and never complained about paying for it, nor the time taken.
I'm not concerned who paid for it...I paid a fair price for a product that did what I wanted it to do...this was 10 years ago, when 8L FMICs were not widely available, so it was custom work.
I also had you make up a bespoke SMIC, in black, to run in series with my FMIC...again, sorted out by Russell, and I was more than heppy with the results.
I said earlier in this thread that I would be happy to lend you my car.
Sometimes things take time...and I am happy to allow that time if the results justify it.
Personally I can't see why some people make such a fuss...if you are interested, accept the offer. If you aren't, pass by.
No problem.
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Many folk don't seem to happy with the idea of lending the car to Forge, or a-n-other company, but look at it this way:
They are designing an intake system. At worst, they'll maybe wreck your MAF, or at worst the turbo, for which I assume they'd accept liability (we're talking worst case scenario with foreign objects due to incorrect filtration).
They're going to give it a good jog on a dyno. Dynos are controlled environments and things like AFR and knock would be monitored. Any adverse running condition, I'm sure, would result in a termination of the test and the customer contacted. How many of us can honestly say we haven't stretched our GTI's legs thru 3rd and 4th gear on the road? Even then, modded cars are at the mercy of the unknown quantity which is the intake they've bought off the shelf and fitted by you-know-who.
Personally, I wouldn't go two weeks without my car for what is, essentially, little reward. Especially as I'd have to travel from Glasgow. I do, however, respect the fact that Forge state that the two week period is a worst case scenario and parts require further fabrication.
It just so happens that as of 3pm today, I'm buggering off to Crete for two weeks, so the car is sitting up in dry storage awaiting for my sexy return. If it were me, I'd be looking for Forge (or a-n-other company) to collect the car at their expense, do a pre-testing diagnostic (electronic and dyno run) and then contractually indemnify you against any loss caused by their testing process. After that, return the vehicle (again, at their expense) in the precise condition it was supplied in.
The cost of doing this, vs the anticipated margin (120-150%) of the final product is negligible. I do understand the reason for not buying a demo vehicle for each set of products, but supplying a part worth £80-90 in parts to the business isn't adequate remuneration for donating up to two weeks of no-drive-time for what is essentially, everybody's on here, weekend toy and/or daily driver.
Good luck on the R&D on this product, however. I'm running with an ITG Maxogen at the moment and will be looking at a well matched snorkel, filter and precharge system soon due to the fairly painful turbulence I'm seeing at the MAF.