GolfGTIforum.co.uk
General => General discussion => Topic started by: ROG. on 09 April 2012, 16:49
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My first post and I hope you will find it useful - many other sites have
Trailer towing:- B and B+E licence rules explained
I have extensive knowledge on this issue and already have a trailer towing clinic HERE (http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=490195) as well as many other sites.
I use the above to demonstrate that I have not joined this site to spam etc but simply to help others understand the rules which the Govt sites do not seem to explain very well.
Trailer MAM means the maximum weight the trailer can be when fully loaded (weight of empty trailer plus weight of load)
Trailers over 3500 kgs plated MAM weight come under different rules which is why all the trailers towed by B class vehicles , those of 3.5 tonnes and under, are not plated at more than 3500 kgs or 3.5 tonnes MAM
Trailers without plates use the total of the TYRE LOAD RATINGS (http://www.rotationuk.com/gbu0-display/tyre_load_ratings.html) to determine the MAM.
A rating of 66 on 4 tyres would give a MAM of 1200 kgs.
Vehicles in the B licence category will have the following information on a plate in the vehicle, in the handbook or on the V5 form.
Information can also be found on many internet vehicle specification sites.
Unladen or Kerb weight - although there is a slight difference in the two it is not that much
GVW - the max weight the vehicle can weigh when fully loaded
GTW - the max weight the vehicle and trailer can ACTUALLY weigh when added together. This does not refer to the total of the vehicle GWV and trailer MAM weights.
Towing capacity - this is the ACTUAL weight that can be towed by the vehicle - it does not mean the trailer MAM weight.
None of the above weights must be exceeded
Some vehicles have a GVW, a towing capacity and a GTW. In such a case the GTW takes priority over the GVW and towing capacity when added together
FOR B+E LICENCES
Where a towing capacity is listed then this would be a legal example:-
CAR has GVW of 2000 and a towing capacity of 1800
TRAILER has a MAM of 3500 and an unladen weight of 1000
The trailer can be loaded with a maximum weight of 800
Where there is not a towing capacity listed then the GTW is used
GTW minus the GVW does not give the towing capacity unless the vehicle is fully laden
EXAMPLE: -
VAN has GVW of 3500 and GTW of 6000
TRAILER has MAM of 3500
The van and trailer can weigh 3000 each and be legal
FOR B LICENCES
The Gov sites are not that good at explaining this so I have managed to find a simple way of determining whether a driver can tow something on a B only licence -
To tow over 750 kgs with a B licence you need to say NO to the following:-
Is the plated MAM of the trailer more than the UNLADEN/KERB/EMPTY weight of the towing vehicle?
Does the GVW of the towing vehicle plus the plated MAM of the trailer add up to more than 3500 kgs?
Is the ACTUAL weight of the empty trailer and its load more than the listed towing capacity?
Example of legally towing over 750 kgs with a B licence - made up figures but not that far from what can be found....
Towing vehicle -
Unladen/empty/kerb = 1500
GVW = 2000
Towing capacity = 1800
Trailer -
Unladen/empty = 800
MAM = 1500 (Perhaps originally a 2000 MAM but downplated by manufacturer so it conforms to B licence towing)
Load trailer with 700 max
Reasons it is legal for towing on a B licence -
The 1500 MAM of the trailer is not more than the 1500 unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
The 2000 GVW of the towing vehicle plus the 1500 MAM of the trailer is not more than 3500
The towing capacity/actual weight being towed does not exceed 1800
SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER
In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.
They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.
The usual rules apply when a learner is driving -
The supervising driver must be aged over 21
The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years
L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer
Correct insurance for a B+E learner
Caravan weights work on a slightly different system as they take into account the recommended (not legal) 85% towing rule
I hope this helps those who are unsure of the rules
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The B only licence category DOES allow you to tow trailers BUT there are weight restrictions.
RULE 1 - The gross plated weight of the trailer (MAM) cannot exceed the vehicle kerbweight.
RULE 2 - Also, the sum of the vehicle gross plated weight (GVW) and the trailer gross plated weight (MAM) cannot exceed 3500kg.
Examples:-
Vehicle 1200kg kerbweight, 1700kg gross plated weight (GVW) = maximum trailer gross plated weight (MAM) 1200kg SEE RULE 1
Vehicle 1500kg kerbweight, 2000kg gross plated weight (GVW) = maximum trailer gross plated weight (MAM) 1500kg SEE RULES 1 & 2
Vehicle 1800kg kerbweight, 2300kg gross plated weight (GVW) = maximum trailer gross plated weight (MAM) 1200kg SEE RULE 2
The weight which can be loaded on the trailer is the trailer gross plated weight (MAM) minus the trailer unladen weight
Trailer gross plated weight (MAM) 1500 with unladen weight 900 = a maximum load of 600
The listed maximum towing capacity for a vehicle must not be exceeded - that is actual weight not plated MAM weight
Volkswagen Golf GTI 2.0 TSI 3dr 2.0
Kerb Weight = 1400 Kg
Gross Weight = 1870 Kg
Towing Limit = 1400 Kg
Trailer
Unladen weight = 650 kg
MAM weight = 1400 kg - perhaps downplated from an original 2000 kg
Load max weight of 750 kg
LEGAL for towing on a B licence because the trailer MAM of 1400 is not more than the vehicle unladen weight of 1400 and the trailer MAM of 1400 plus the Golf GVW of 1870 adds up to 3270 which is not more than the 3500 limit
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All B licence holders have a B+E provisional on the paper part of their licence
That means they can tow a B+E combination either loaded or empty and on a motorway providing they adhere to these rules:-
Supervising driver must be age 21+ and held B+E for 3+ years
L plates on front of vehicle and rear of trailer
Correct insurance for B+E learner - check with current insurer
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The B+E test
No medical or theory test required
Read a number plate from a certain distance
VIDEO - Show Me Tell Me Questions (http://"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqw6Ua3kmFc&feature=related") - usually 5
The next three can be in any order:-
VIDEO - Reversing Exercise (old measurements) (http://"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW7DHqcO9Sg&feature=related") - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
VIDEO - Uncouple/couple up (http://"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao_5KOe8dGg&feature=related") - done in test centre grounds if test conducted from practical test centre - some tests are now being done from training school grounds
One hour road drive - includes the independant drive and is done virtually the same as the basic car test
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If anyone wishes me to do a personal check for them then please supply this info with the weights in kgs
LICENCE
B or B+E
VEHICLE
Kerb =
GVW =
Towing capacity =
TRAILER
Unladen =
MAM =
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I did 110 with a trailer on ,is that ok as it did say 120 max on the plate.
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I did 110 with a trailer on ,is that ok as it did say 120 max on the plate.
You will have to help me a little
What is a 110?
What was 120 on the plate? - I assume you might mean 1200 kgs max towing weight?
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I did 110 with a trailer on ,is that ok as it did say 120 max on the plate.
You will have to help me a little
What is a 110?
What was 120 on the plate? - I assume you might mean 1200 kgs max towing weight?
I think he means 110 mph.
Also doesn't the trailer have to be less than 75% of the weight of the tow vehicle to tow on a b licence?
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Here's the normal question on here - is it legal for me to tow a car on a car trailer behind my car?
We'll use my set up as an example
VEHICLE 2004 Passat 4motion TDI
Kerb = it weighs in around 1800kg
GVW = No idea
Towing capacity = 2000kg
(Parkers shows different figures to the handbook)
TRAILER
Unladen = 300kg
MAM = 1450kg
Load: my Golf2 which is under 1100kg
Now I'm pretty confident I'm legal as I've held my license since the early 90s and it includes the 7.5t allowance and the towing licensing as well. Would I be legal driving the above if I passed my test after the break point, where the trailer test became necessary?
The question I'm curious about is something I've seen people talking about: the axle weights on vehicles, say if I load my Passat up with four fat blokes and their luggage, what effect will that have on the towing capacity and laws associated with towing as it's easy to add several hundreds of kilos to the towing vehicle, specifically over the rear axle, with a bunch of tools in the boot.
I've seen this flagged as being a reason for buying a higher towing capacity car than you'd expect to need and as you're an expert in this area I'd be interested to hear your views.
Cheers.
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surely me and danny would be fat, whose the other 2 :tongue:
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I'm waiting for the obligatory Bellend post.
:grin:
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surely me and danny would be fat, whose the other 2 :tongue:
Well I'd be one and Mike could well be the other. :grin:
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doesn't the trailer have to be less than 75% of the weight of the tow vehicle to tow on a b licence?
No
The plated MAM of the trailer must not be more than the unladen/kerb weight of the towing vehicle
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Here's the normal question on here - is it legal for me to tow a car on a car trailer behind my car?
We'll use my set up as an example
VEHICLE 2004 Passat 4motion TDI
Kerb = it weighs in around 1800kg
GVW = No idea
Towing capacity = 2000kg
(Parkers shows different figures to the handbook)
TRAILER
Unladen = 300kg
MAM = 1450kg
Load: my Golf2 which is under 1100kg
Now I'm pretty confident I'm legal as I've held my license since the early 90s and it includes the 7.5t allowance and the towing licensing as well. Would I be legal driving the above if I passed my test after the break point, where the trailer test became necessary?
The question I'm curious about is something I've seen people talking about: the axle weights on vehicles, say if I load my Passat up with four fat blokes and their luggage, what effect will that have on the towing capacity and laws associated with towing as it's easy to add several hundreds of kilos to the towing vehicle, specifically over the rear axle, with a bunch of tools in the boot.
I've seen this flagged as being a reason for buying a higher towing capacity car than you'd expect to need and as you're an expert in this area I'd be interested to hear your views.
Cheers.
OK, I assume the two bits in blue are not referring to the same thing - :grin:
Now to the serious bit ....
You have a B+E licence so thats great
The unladen trailer and the load add up to less than the trailer MAM so thats ok
When fully loaded your trailer is still well under the towing capacity so thats not an issue
No need to worry about GVW or kerb weight for B+E licence holder towing
You're perfectly legal with that set up :smiley:
You can have a trailer up to 3500 MAM but as long as it does not actually weigh more than 2000 when loaded you will be ok
PS - I've loked through every dimension/specification site I know of for your vehicle and the specs you gave but cannot find it so could you give me any more info please
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The question I'm curious about is something I've seen people talking about: the axle weights on vehicles, say if I load my Passat up with four fat blokes and their luggage, what effect will that have on the towing capacity and laws associated with towing as it's easy to add several hundreds of kilos to the towing vehicle, specifically over the rear axle, with a bunch of tools in the boot.
I've seen this flagged as being a reason for buying a higher towing capacity car than you'd expect to need and as you're an expert in this area I'd be interested to hear your views.
If the vehicle is loaded without exceeding the axle weights as well as the GVW then adding the trailer will not put more weight onto the rear axle UNLESS the maximum TOWING BALL HITCH WEIGHT has been exceeded
Manufacturers take all this into account when specifying the max towing capacity as they do noot want to get sued!!
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OK, so from the owner's manual:
GVW: 2160kg
Kerb Weight with driver: 1646kg
Gross Axle Weight front: 1080kg
Gross Axle Weight rear: 1150kg
The trailer weights in the handbook are:
Gradients up to 12% 1700kg
Gradients up to 8% 2,000kg
So talk to us about axle weights, if you would please.
It'd be really useful to know in short-form what *can't* someone who doesn't have the 'old fart's license' tow.
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would actualy be usefull to know what i'm allowed to tow one of these days. but i think the whole B+E licence is a load of tosh
as far as i read it i can tow nasty littel un manuvable trailers all i like, but usefull size trailers with something usefull on them like a car i cant and chould possobly get points and whole world of grief for doing so. BUT if i jump in a tractor bering in mind i'm useless at driveing them i can hook u to 20 ton of trailer and go for a drive perfectly legaly what relly takes the piss is if i first of all hook up to a drawbar that carries a 5th wheel hitch i can then hook up to an artic trailer dose mean it's basicly a turntabel trailer so really nasty but i can go for a drive with that no problems as long as its under 26 ton.
the really confuseing one tho is what's legal with the pickuptruck. its a ford XLT450 but reisterd as a tractor and had air/oil brake linkup fitted mostly for shunting trailers but what would it be legal to take down the road behind it ?
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OK, so from the owner's manual:
GVW: 2160kg
Kerb Weight with driver: 1646kg
Gross Axle Weight front: 1080kg
Gross Axle Weight rear: 1150kg
The trailer weights in the handbook are:
Gradients up to 12% 1700kg
Gradients up to 8% 2,000kg
So talk to us about axle weights, if you would please.
It'd be really useful to know in short-form what *can't* someone who doesn't have the 'old fart's license' tow.
Not a lot you cannot do with a B+E
Basically all you have to do is to remember not to exceed the vehicle axle weights & GVW 2160, the towing capacity 2000 (actual weight) and the trailer MAM (whatever that is for the trailer being used)
The lower weight of either towing capacity or trailer MAM must be used
You will always find that the total of the axle weights will add up to more than the GVW - this is to give the driver some flexibility as to where they position the load
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would actualy be usefull to know what i'm allowed to tow one of these days. but i think the whole B+E licence is a load of tosh
as far as i read it i can tow nasty littel un manuvable trailers all i like, but usefull size trailers with something usefull on them like a car i cant and chould possobly get points and whole world of grief for doing so. BUT if i jump in a tractor bering in mind i'm useless at driveing them i can hook u to 20 ton of trailer and go for a drive perfectly legaly what relly takes the piss is if i first of all hook up to a drawbar that carries a 5th wheel hitch i can then hook up to an artic trailer dose mean it's basicly a turntabel trailer so really nasty but i can go for a drive with that no problems as long as its under 26 ton.
the really confuseing one tho is what's legal with the pickuptruck. its a ford XLT450 but reisterd as a tractor and had air/oil brake linkup fitted mostly for shunting trailers but what would it be legal to take down the road behind it ?
My knowledge of farmimg towing rules is so limited I would not dare to try and answer that
What I can say is that certain exemptions were put in for the farming community as history showed that these were needed to keep us all fed
I would imagine that the XLT450 will have a handbook showing what it is or is not capable of and if not then contacting the manufacturer would be the only other recourse IMO
Different vehicle categories have their own legal rules so one cannot be judged against the other
It seems from your post you only have a B licence but with the right vehicle and trailer you could tow an actual weight of 1500 kgs for example
CAR
unladen 1500
GVW 2000
towing capacity 1800
TRAILER
Unladen 500
MAM 1500
Load it with 1000
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GVW: 2160kg
Kerb Weight with driver: 1646kg
Gross Axle Weight front: 1080kg
Gross Axle Weight rear: 1150kg
Towing capacity 2000
B+E licence
Any trailer up to 3500 plated MAM
Do not load to more than 2000 actual weight when loaded
B licence
Max trailer plated MAM of 1340 (1340+2160=3500)
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Thanks a lot for this clarification - it's very useful in ensuring that people know what they're legal to tow.
So basically, if you have a reasonably rated estate car (e.g. 2WD 130PD Passat GVW2030kg) and a lightweight car trailer, with a stripped out Golf2 or similar you're going to be OK on a B.
The fly in the ointment for my set up, on a B is that the trailer is rated at 1450kg so a B licence would mean you weren't allowed to tow it because the MAM of the train could be over 3500kg, right?
Just to confirm the calculation that the police would use to confirm a good shafting if someone with a B-licence was caught with my set up would be:
Car GVW 2160kg
Trailer MAM 1450kg
Total MAM = 3610kg
But if they were running a 2WD Passat 130PD with the same trailer they'd be OK on the handbook value of that car's GVW of 2030kg
Are there many car trailers now being produced which are low weight, high capacity to cater to the B-only market? I know a lot of the Brian James rigs are rated to load 2000kg on them, which would put a B licence holder WAY over on most things that could tow them with a reasonable load.
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Thanks a lot for this clarification - it's very useful in ensuring that people know what they're legal to tow.
Q1 - So basically, if you have a reasonably rated estate car (e.g. 2WD 130PD Passat GVW2030kg) and a lightweight car trailer, with a stripped out Golf2 or similar you're going to be OK on a B.
Q2 - The fly in the ointment for my set up, on a B is that the trailer is rated at 1450kg so a B licence would mean you weren't allowed to tow it because the MAM of the train could be over 3500kg, right?
Q3 - Just to confirm the calculation that the police would use to confirm a good shafting if someone with a B-licence was caught with my set up would be:
Car GVW 2160kg
Trailer MAM 1450kg
Total MAM = 3610kg
Q4 - But if they were running a 2WD Passat 130PD with the same trailer they'd be OK on the handbook value of that car's GVW of 2030kg
Q5 - Are there many car trailers now being produced which are low weight, high capacity to cater to the B-only market? I know a lot of the Brian James rigs are rated to load 2000kg on them, which would put a B licence holder WAY over on most things that could tow them with a reasonable load.
A1 - If the stripped out Golf and the weight of the empty trailer are under 1470 and the trailer is not plated to more than 1470 AND the unladen weight of the Passat is not less than 1470 then yes (1470+2030=3500)
A2 - correct
A3 - correct again- very easy to check on at the roadside and they tend to target towing drivers under the age of 35
A4 - yes, providing the unladen weight of the Passat was not less than 1450
A5 - http://www.armitagetrailers.com/Cartransportertrailers.htm - that is small!!
http://www.trailertek.com/2383/car_transporters/lightweight-car-transporters/#more-2383 - loads of examples in that list and it seems that they are all about 400 kgs unladen (MAM - LOAD)
Taking the LW-102 twin axle car transporter trailer as an example - it has an unladen weight of 400 and a MAM of 1600 but that MAM could be downplated to perhaps 1500, 1450 or 1400 which would allow respective loads of 1100, 1050 and 1000
Manufacturers will be happy to downplate the MAM if they are asked and that is often done for free or at a token admin cost
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i know Iforwilliams will do so if you ask. it's free as well but you have to take the trailer to one of there dealers so they can look at it and decide it's not nicked before replateing it, quite a sensible thing imo
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Great topic and thanks for all the info. Looks like I'm good to go with ZT, trailer and Golf on the back.
nick
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So the last time I towed a Golf MK2 (800kg) on the Dodge the weights permitted were:
MAX GTW unbraked 450KG
MAX GTW braked 1200KG
MAX tongue Wt. 80KG
Can't remember what weight the trailer was I think it might have been about 450KG
Another note the trailer weighs more than 450KG it should have brakes!
450+800=1250kg? I was towing? GVW is about 2000KG on mine I think?
My license states B+E untill 2045
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Great topic and thanks for all the info. Looks like I'm good to go with ZT, trailer and Golf on the back.
nick
Gimme these (weights in kgs) and I'll confirm for you if you wish me to?
LICENCE
B or B+E
VEHICLE
Kerb =
GVW =
Towing capacity =
TRAILER
Unladen =
MAM =
LOAD =
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problem is I will be hiring a trailer for when I use one for trackdays as I don't own one and don't currently have anywhere to keep one if I did.
LICENCE
Old fart (passed in 95)
VEHICLE
Kerb = 1515
GVW = Unknown
Towing capacity = 1600
TRAILER
Unladen = 500 (approx)
MAM = Unknwon
LOAD = 850KG
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So the last time I towed a Golf MK2 (800kg) on the Dodge the weights permitted were:
MAX GTW unbraked 450KG
MAX GTW braked 1200KG
MAX tongue Wt. 80KG
Can't remember what weight the trailer was I think it might have been about 450KG
Another note the trailer weighs more than 450KG it should have brakes!
450+800=1250kg? I was towing? GVW is about 2000KG on mine I think?
My license states B+E untill 2045
With a GTW of 1200 which usually stands for Gross Train Weight but in this case stand for Gross Trailer Weight just to confuse things!! then you were 50 kgs over with 800+450
Assuming that the Dodge was at least 50 kgs under the permitted GVW and any trailer plated MAM was not exceeded at the time then it gets interesting ......
The GTW (Gross Train Weight) will not have been exceeded because that will be GVW+towing capacity - no plated law broken
The plated weight on the trailer will not have been exceeded - no plated law broken
So we are left with just the manufacturers towing capacity being exceeded - no specific law written for that BUT .... According to a very reliable source......
Exceeding the towing capacity of a vehicle could leave the driver open to prosecution under the following:-
Regulation 100 C&U regs 1986
Road traffic act section 40, 41 or 42 with possible penalty points
If overload more than 30% then may consider vehicle/combination being in dangerous conndition
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problem is I will be hiring a trailer for when I use one for trackdays as I don't own one and don't currently have anywhere to keep one if I did.
LICENCE
Old fart (passed in 95)
VEHICLE
Kerb = 1515
GVW = Unknown
Towing capacity = 1600
TRAILER
Unladen = 500 (approx)
MAM = Unknown
LOAD = 850KG
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/used-cars/mg/zt/used-mg-zt-2-0-cdti-135-4dr-witham-fpa-201214462254029
Found a 2005 ZT with these specs
Kerb = 1515
GVW = 2030
Towing capacity = 1600
TRAILER
Unladen = 500 (approx)
MAM = for a B+E = up to 3500 but loaded to an actual weight max of 1600
MAM = for a B = up to 1470 because 1470+2030=3500
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So the last time I towed a Golf MK2 (800kg) on the Dodge the weights permitted were:
MAX GTW unbraked 450KG
MAX GTW braked 1200KG
MAX tongue Wt. 80KG
Can't remember what weight the trailer was I think it might have been about 450KG
Another note the trailer weighs more than 450KG it should have brakes!
450+800=1250kg? I was towing? GVW is about 2000KG on mine I think?
My license states B+E untill 2045
With a GTW of 1200 which usually stands for Gross Train Weight but in this case stand for Gross Trailer Weight just to confuse things!! then you were 50 kgs over with 800+450
Assuming that the Dodge was at least 50 kgs under the permitted GVW and any trailer plated MAM was not exceeded at the time then it gets interesting ......
The GTW (Gross Train Weight) will not have been exceeded because that will be GVW+towing capacity - no plated law broken
The plated weight on the trailer will not have been exceeded - no plated law broken
So we are left with just the manufacturers towing capacity being exceeded - no specific law written for that BUT .... According to a very reliable source......
Exceeding the towing capacity of a vehicle could leave the driver open to prosecution under the following:-
Regulation 100 C&U regs 1986
Road traffic act section 40, 41 or 42 with possible penalty points
If overload more than 30% then may consider vehicle/combination being in dangerous conndition
Nick old fart well mines says 94 LOL!
The tongue weight doesnt include in the 450KG?
mmmm I'm guessing the golf weight was about 800KG?
The Dodge weight is 1700KG
Possibly I was just over, but under the 30%
All I know is the fuel bill was the biggest expense but it was a very long distance!