GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk3 => Topic started by: danmusic24 on 08 February 2012, 09:18
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having a problem with my 16v gear change it dont like 1st or reverse and there is a lot of play in gear stick.(cable change)
i have heard you can use mk4 gear change setup.there is a mk4 up my local scrap yard 1.8 20v not turbo,is it worth changing mine for a mk4 setup?
any guides or info pls?
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should be a straight swap for 02a and 02j shifters. It could be worth getting the gearbox tower as well should make the gear changes feel smoother though obviously wont help with any problems caused by the gearbox itself.
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Yeah its supposed to improve the shifting on the crappy mk3 cable set up considerably. I looked into it myself but there's quite a bit of fettling involved and I thought id leave it until I finally get around to pulling the engine out.
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You will need the 02J gearbox end shift tower, the cables and the Mk4 gear lever/shifter box assembly.
The 02J shift tower bolts straight into the 02A gearbox.
The cables go in the same place.
You will likely have to bracket the Mk3 shift lever assembly into the Mk3 floorpan to secure it...but it will fit.
Either way, you need the whole lot....or leave it all Mk3.
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do you know for fact you need the tower? only asking as I have the mk4 tower on my 02a and am still using 02a cables so surely it will work the other way as well?
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do you know for fact you need the tower? only asking as I have the mk4 tower on my 02a and am still using 02a cables so surely it will work the other way as well?
The Mk4 tower is simply better, less slop and the shift weight is a different size/shape.
Don't the cables connect differently too?
Certainly the 02J tower I have is quite different to the 02A tower and the cable connections are slighly different - 02A needs adjustment, 02J is self adjusting.
It also gives you the option of fitting the TT linkages to get the OEM short-shift.
If you are going to grab the lot, why would you not take the gearbox end too?
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If available then yeah get the tower as well, I was just curious about the towers as I dont know myself.
when doing my conversion the tower on my 02a was knackered all the splines were sheered off so it wouldnt change at all, and all I had available at the time was an 02j tower but it seemed to fit the same as the 02a and the cables fitted ok so I just left it at that. My gear changes dont really feel any better so it could be I was sold an 02a tower but kells says he also has an 02j tower and its the same as the 02a
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If available then yeah get the tower as well, I was just curious about the towers as I dont know myself.
when doing my conversion the tower on my 02a was knackered all the splines were sheered off so it wouldnt change at all, and all I had available at the time was an 02j tower but it seemed to fit the same as the 02a and the cables fitted ok so I just left it at that. My gear changes dont really feel any better so it could be I was sold an 02a tower but kells says he also has an 02j tower and its the same as the 02a
There may be two versions...but the 02J tower I have is very different to the 02A I am using.
The tower is shorter and the shift weight is a completely different shape.
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I've read there are 2 different shaft(?) sizes on the 02j towers, not sure what they are but one is the same as 02a and one is different, so sometimes you will need to change the piece the shaft sits in inside the gearbox, but I've never seen this other sized one. could be the one you have maybe?
Found this pic, apparently the top one is 02j and bottom is 02a, but my mk4 tower off a 1.9 diesel I'm sure looks a lot more like the 02a than the 02j in this pic. It's got me wondering now though as I also read the 02a and 02j reverse light switches are different shapes but my 02j tower has the same plug as my old mk3 one :huh:
(http://web.mac.com/lehmanpr/iWeb/Site%206/Photos%202_files/IMG_2750.jpg)
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is the code for gearbox marked on gear box somewhere?also how are the cables run on mk4,under car or through the body,as the mk4 im looking at at scrapyard is dumped on the floor with no wheels???? :smiley:
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I've read there are 2 different shaft(?) sizes on the 02j towers, not sure what they are but one is the same as 02a and one is different, so sometimes you will need to change the piece the shaft sits in inside the gearbox, but I've never seen this other sized one. could be the one you have maybe?
Found this pic, apparently the top one is 02j and bottom is 02a, but my mk4 tower off a 1.9 diesel I'm sure looks a lot more like the 02a than the 02j in this pic. It's got me wondering now though as I also read the 02a and 02j reverse light switches are different shapes but my 02j tower has the same plug as my old mk3 one :huh:
(http://web.mac.com/lehmanpr/iWeb/Site%206/Photos%202_files/IMG_2750.jpg)
Then you have another 02A tower...
02J is the top one...and very different.
for a complete 02J set up, you need the lot.
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is the code for gearbox marked on gear box somewhere?also how are the cables run on mk4,under car or through the body,as the mk4 im looking at at scrapyard is dumped on the floor with no wheels???? :smiley:
Mk4 runs like Mk3...under the body, above the exhaust, under a trip panel, that is in turn under a heatshield.
As for gearbox code - the 3 digit identification number is stamped on it somewhere...but as to whether it's 02A or 02J...look at the previous pic and suss it out.
The Diffs also vary - not the diff themselfes, but the way the drive plates mount to the diff to allow the driveshafts to mate up. I think 02A is circlip where 02J in cap head screw.
My 02A 'box had 02J drive flange mounting - from the factory!
Not that it makes any difference for bolting up driveshafts...but it does if you are fitting an LSD!
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Early mk4's have the same tower as a mk3 and isn't worth changing.
To change it all over, you need an 02j tower and shifter. Depending on your box, the tower may not fit into the bush in the bottom of the gearbox. When i changed mine it was a straight fit. Two bolts and some sealant and it was in.
The Mk4 shifter isnt a straight fit, but you can change the shifter housing to one from a polo tdi/ibiza 20v cupra and its easier. You can get these from dealer new. you do need the mk4 cables. shown here.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v458/tshirt2k/16vt%20project/a79005f3.jpg)
You can use any type early or late. The only difference is the bowden cable clips on the end of the cables. Early are ball type, later are held on with circlips. they are all interchangable though.
Early type
(http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/2517/66267144.jpg)
Late Type wont need buying if you go for the TT Short shift as they come on the short shift and the relay lever.
Late type Relay lever with catch 1J0 711 202 P
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v458/tshirt2k/d751913b.jpg)
TT short shift 8N0 711 046
(http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/6760/ttshortshift.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/254/ttshortshift.jpg/)
Mod required to fit MK3 mounting:
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c268/G60Dub/02A/IMAG0164.jpg)
Checking it all works prior to ripping the old tat out the car:
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c268/G60Dub/02A/IMAG0162.jpg)
You have to get under the car, take off the exhaust at the downpipe, and remove heatshield to change shifter and drill a hole like shown in the shifter housing to keep the front of it secure.
The shifter is alot tighter and shorter than the mk3 With the TT short shift, but because i rebuilt my tower with new parts and havent driven the car much, the shift is very stiff. But im told it does loosen up in time.
You also have to change wiring to reversing light switch so that reversing lights still work. its a different plug.
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when you say the early mk4 tower is same as mk3 and isn't worth changing, do you mean it isn't worth changing towers at all or it just isn't worth changing from mk3 to early mk4?
also whats involved in changing the bush?
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when you say the early mk4 tower is same as mk3 and isn't worth changing, do you mean it isn't worth changing towers at all or it just isn't worth changing from mk3 to early mk4?
also whats involved in changing the bush?
Not worth changing at all because the only benefit could be that it was made a few years later.
what bush? :huh:
look here for a rebuild thread.
click me (http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=229024&highlight=02j+shifter)
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the bush the tower sits in in the gearbox
I'm still deciding whether to put in an 02s or not :P
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Its a bearing not a bush. And its awkward to fit. There is an easy way to remove it on CGTI.
02S isn't worth it as ratios arent good and you need to change bellhousing so you can have a speedo
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Some others have told me the same things but I'm a bit confused as all the 02s box's I've looked at have taller ratios than the mk3 16v box I'm using atm, which is what I want to counter the silly torque I get from the 20vt. maybe I'm reading the charts wrong or something which is highly likely :tongue:
I'm not too worried about having to change bellhousings as long as its worth doing
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But they are oddly spaced and have short 1st gears. An 02A/J with a VR6 FD or go for lower diesel one would suit ya. The mk3 box has the lowest 1st gear available and a good set of ratios. A lower final drive should be good. I'm going down that route as i've done quite a bit of research on it in relation to my torque curve.
http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=235941 (http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=235941)
At the moment a longer 5th will do me until i get my other box built.
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I don't know nearly enough about gearboxs to understand even half of whats going on in that thread lol, what I basically want is to be able to drive normally without petrol bankrupting me but still have a bit of poke when some dick is up my arse on the m25 :evil: you think the mk3 diesel is the box I want?
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What is your issue with the gearbox? Do you spin easily in lower gears? Want better cruising speeds?
I'm going for a vr6 final drive on a 16v box. Basically a vr6 box that will fit a 4cyl. It will reduce cruising revs by around 300rpm. Will reduce wheelspin in the lower gears by lowering axle torque. This should aid acceleration.
You could go for a diesel ctn box but I worked out, that it wouldn't be that suitable for my engine. If it were a g60 then yes.
All depends on how easy you want it? A box swap or get internals changed?
That's why I changed 5th gear as it was easiest and cheapest to do now and I could get more relaxed cruising revs.
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Ah yes I guess it would help knowing my issues :tongue: I get a lot of wheel spin in low gears and when at 70+ it feels like the engines working harder than it should be, id like to cruise at lower revs basically. I think the box I have now is a dpa
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Same as me then. A lower final drive would suit you then. But if the box is being split, you may aswell get an LSD. That's what I'm waiting for. Already have a spare dpa to get built.
You could try a diesel/g60 5th to give you a more relaxed motorway drive. Those gearboxes are designed for a higher reving lower torque engine so that's why it feels highly strung on the m25.
I ideally wanted a 0.755 5th from a CTN box which will give 70mph @ 2900 rpm and 158mph @ 6500rpm.
But I've got a 0.769 5th from a g60 which should give 70@ 2950 and 155 @ 6500rpm
Top speeds will only be reached if the car has enough power to over come the drag.
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Looking like I may have to go the same route as you then, I better get swatting up on gearboxs :p so when finished your going for just changing the final drive, or final drive and 5th? I may end up getting a diesel box anyway then I can play around with the dpa and see what I can learn :p
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Have you looked into the ASD diesel box at all?
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Asd has similar ratios to a 16v box but a low final drive and an even longer 5th.
Go into the gearboxman website and download calculator. Put the ratios in and see if it works. Personally I think it would be to long and lazy. You may have to do alot of changing up and down the box to get it moving swiftly. 5th would need changing to the 16v ratio as it tops out at a theoretical 170mph.
I'll be changing final drive along with an LSD. I can always change 5th if i need to as I already have it. Only takes about an hour to change.
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ASD looks pretty good for what I want I think, same as my box I have now in 1st-3rd and a longer 4th and 5th. I just need to work out where the final drive comes in, I dont have excel so cant use the gearboxman sheet and have to use some tool i found on google, its saying I'd get 180 in 5th at 6000rpm
1st 39mph
2nd 66mph
3rd 98mph
4th 118mph
5th 180mph
Not sure how accurate that is though cant see myself doing 100 in 3rd :P Though if I put in the DPA ratios it seems pretty similar to what I can get atm
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I'll put up a graph for ya. Or you could get OpenOffice free :wink:
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Thinking I'm going to go for ASD box with a mk4 shifter just deciding on the towers. With the box out do you think it would be worth it at all fitting the newer 02j tower or stick with the mk3 type 02j tower I alraedy have?
also this will all fit gearbox end without any mods right? cables will be the right length etc? shifter im looking at has the ball type end links
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This is how the gear speeds will be. 5th will be Waaay to long and i'd change for a 16v one.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v458/tshirt2k/ABF-ASD_box.jpg)
I did max revs at 6500 and 195/50-15 tyres. Your car may not be able to pull 6500rpm in top.
This is using Quaife calc
Gearbox:- ASD
Tyre:- 195/50-15
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Top Gear gives 29.811 MPH/1000 RPM and a top speed of 193.770 MPH at 6500 RPM
Engine speeds in top gear:-
30 MPH = 1006 RPM 40 MPH = 1342 RPM 50 MPH = 1677 RPM 60 MPH = 2013 RPM
70 MPH = 2348 RPM 80 MPH = 2684 RPM 90 MPH = 3019 RPM 100 MPH = 3354 RPM
Top Speed in 1 gear = 42.101 MPH
And changes into 2 gear at 3829 RPM dropping 2671 RPM
Top Speed in 2 gear = 71.468 MPH
And changes into 3 gear at 4373 RPM dropping 2127 RPM
Top Speed in 3 gear = 106.218 MPH
And changes into 4 gear at 5114 RPM dropping 1386 RPM
Top Speed in 4 gear = 135.017 MPH
And changes into 5 gear at 4529 RPM dropping 1971 RPM
Top Speed in 5 gear = 193.770 MPH
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Gearbox:- ABF
Tyre:- 195/50-15
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Top Gear gives 21.914 MPH/1000 RPM and a top speed of 142.444 MPH at 6500 RPM
Engine speeds in top gear:-
30 MPH = 1369 RPM 40 MPH = 1825 RPM 50 MPH = 2282 RPM 60 MPH = 2738 RPM
70 MPH = 3194 RPM 80 MPH = 3651 RPM 90 MPH = 4107 RPM 100 MPH = 4563 RPM
Top Speed in 1 gear = 36.129 MPH
And changes into 2 gear at 3829 RPM dropping 2671 RPM
Top Speed in 2 gear = 61.330 MPH
And changes into 3 gear at 4373 RPM dropping 2127 RPM
Top Speed in 3 gear = 91.151 MPH
And changes into 4 gear at 5114 RPM dropping 1386 RPM
Top Speed in 4 gear = 115.865 MPH
And changes into 5 gear at 5287 RPM dropping 1213 RPM
Top Speed in 5 gear = 142.444 MPH
******************************************************************************************
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Thanks for this :) gives me something to think about thats quite a big drop in revs from 4th to 5th! knowing me though I'll probably fit it anyway :P I'll keep the old dpa though just in case, I'm finding myself driving a bit slower nowadays maybe I'm getting old :grin: a nice long cruising gear might suit me then just use 1st-4th for faster driving
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Sounds ideal, but where as you can now plant your foot to overtake, you may find it requires a change of gear to overtake. You would hav the DPA box and you can easily change 5th over in around an hour.
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ASD box with DPA 5th looks better. Green line shows DPA 5th
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v458/tshirt2k/ABF-ASD-ASD16v5th_box.jpg)
Gearbox:- ASD+DPA 5th
Tyre:- 195/50-15
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Top Gear gives 25.537 MPH/1000 RPM and a top speed of 165.989 MPH at 6500 RPM
Engine speeds in top gear:-
30 MPH = 1175 RPM 40 MPH = 1566 RPM 50 MPH = 1958 RPM 60 MPH = 2350 RPM
70 MPH = 2741 RPM 80 MPH = 3133 RPM 90 MPH = 3524 RPM 100 MPH = 3916 RPM
Top Speed in 1 gear = 42.101 MPH
And changes into 2 gear at 3829 RPM dropping 2671 RPM
Top Speed in 2 gear = 71.468 MPH
And changes into 3 gear at 4373 RPM dropping 2127 RPM
Top Speed in 3 gear = 106.218 MPH
And changes into 4 gear at 5114 RPM dropping 1386 RPM
Top Speed in 4 gear = 135.017 MPH
And changes into 5 gear at 5287 RPM dropping 1213 RPM
Top Speed in 5 gear = 165.989 MPH
*************************************************
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Yeah that does look better, I'll probably fit the asd for now to see how it feels and open up the dpa to try and get my head around how it works, most I've done on a gearbox so far is change the tower over!
do you know If I'll need to change the tower on the asd to fit the mk4 cables?
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Yep, it may need the bottom bush under the tower out of the DPA too.
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I could use the 02a type 02j tower I have on my dpa already though right? that was a straight swap for my old 02a one. sorry I know you've already explained it earlier in the thread but I'm confused as I cant see any significant difference between my old 02a and the 02j one I swapped it for
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Just found out my mk4 tower part number is 02A 945 413 C. were the early mk4 towers an 02a part number or is this in face a mk3 02a tower?
edit that part number is actually for the cap with the reverse light plug on it. Think I may have a mk3 tower :sad:
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If it has a black cap reverse switch it's a mk3 or early mk4.
What are you trying to not do? It's not a proper 02j one.
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Just wanted to know if the ball type endlink mk4 shifter would fit this tower as I'm going to the scrappy tomorrow so I could pick up the right one if not. I'm thinking it wont though looks like a different setup
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As I said. Its a completely different tower. Are you trying to save money? It's like your trying to use what you have with a mk4 shifter.
You need a matching shifter and tower. You can't get it to fit the mk3 one.
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not only money time as well, want to make sure I have everything good to go and not get halfway through to realise I'm missing something. I'll add it to my list and be on the hunt for one tomorrow :)
do the early mk4s that use the 02a towers use 02a cables too then?
so I need mk4 02j tower, mk4 02j shifter, mk3 asd box and possibly the gearbox tower bush from the 02j as well
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Think I got everything sourced :)
question though, I've found a thread where someone modified the mk4 cable ends to fit the mk3 tower, would this be a option or would it defeat the point of fitting the mk4 shifter?
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You're answering your own questions.
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I don't know if the smoother changes come from the shifter or the tower or both. Guess I do now
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Just an update on the ASD box, fitted it last week and imo the gearing is spot on for my engine and driving style. 1st to 4th feel the same as my old 1st to 5th, and my new 5th is a nice cruising gear. Cruising to work at around
90-100 70 :wink: at just under 3000rpm
If racing is your thing then the dpa 5th would probably be more suited, but the acceleration doesn't feel much different after around 25-30mph and although still easy its harder to spin the wheels when pulling off which is nice. Capable of easily over 100 in 4th which is more than enough for me so all in all I'm very pleased :) Next is fitting the mk4 shifter :cool:
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How is acceleration in lower gears?
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I cant tell much of a difference tbh it still goes like a rocket, just feels more controlled so if I plant my foot I go forward instead of spinning wheels :P
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In gear acceleration? Do you have to change down to get a move on?
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1st feels the same except its longer, if you planted your foot it would spin just the same as the old box but you can use a little more throttle without spinning. 2nd feels the same as well but longer again.
3rd feels a bit weaker when putting your foot down to overtake you don't get the same feeling of being pulled back in the seat but its still more than capable of overtaking, I had a little test with a mate in his 1.8t a3, going from 40 in 3rd and putting our foot down I left him for dust. not a test of power as his is standard just wanted to see what it was like in comparison
4th again feels like 3rd, if overtaking from 4th I have to change down where I didnt really need to before. It feels similar to the old 5th in the dpa
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Yea can see that on the graph. 1st and 2nd would be good but the last 3 gears are out of place a bit.
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It may look like that on paper but imo it feels more right than the old box did, all the gears were far too short and I often felt myself wanting to change up then realising I was already in 5th. It now feels more natural and although the acceleration isn't quite as good as before it's still much better than most other things on the road :)