GolfGTIforum.co.uk
General => The garage => Topic started by: scarr89 on 18 December 2011, 23:42
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Can someone please put in simples what devils own water/meth injection thing is? Really would like to know how it aids your engine and how it works! Have read a few posts about, and looked on the websites and have gotten that you inject water into your inlet manifold? Then it talks about advance in timings? :shocked:
I am DERV kinda guy so am not too clued up on all this petrol meth injection malarkey...
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makes em go better.
water lower cyl temps but that's not the only effect it has. belive it or not it actualy iteracts chemicaly with the fuel and air to help the burn. the water H20 ( some of it ) will become peroxide bit like this 2 X H2O + O2 > 2X H2O2 shortly after the peroxide H2O2 brakes down back into H2O ( water ) and free atomic oxigen ( thats really good at burnign stuff )
the other feature is it not only removes heat though the waters laten eat of vaporisation but chemicaly stores energy for a short while in the form of h2o2
methanol is just a bloody good fuel it carrys some of the oxigen it needs to burn within itself so are in effect injecting oxigen into the engine as part of the fuel as it needs less o2 to burn you can burn more for a given amount of air therefore getting more power it also rases the effective octane rateing and is bloody good at moping up heat exp when running on high % mixes
long and short, you can shove more in the cylinder and light it sooner to get more power without haveing to add fuel by the bucket to keep the cyl temps down, excess fuel keeps det away to a point but water dose it better
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Can someone please put in simples what devils own water/meth injection thing is? Really would like to know how it aids your engine and how it works! Have read a few posts about, and looked on the websites and have gotten that you inject water into your inlet manifold? Then it talks about advance in timings? :shocked:
I am DERV kinda guy so am not too clued up on all this petrol meth injection malarkey...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkPFZWd8wj4
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water lower cyl temps but that's not the only effect it has. belive it or not it actualy iteracts chemicaly with the fuel and air to help the burn. the water H20 ( some of it ) will become peroxide bit like this 2 X H2O + O2 > 2X H2O2 shortly after the peroxide H2O2 brakes down back into H2O ( water ) and free atomic oxigen ( thats really good at burnign stuff )
This man has previous convictions with peroxide. :grin:
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Thanks for the link Sound. So am I right in thinking that lower temps reduces the chances of premature ignition which leads to bent rods...is that how that happens?
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Thanks for the link Sound. So am I right in thinking that lower temps reduces the chances of premature ignition which leads to bent rods...is that how that happens?
Lower intake temps = more consistent power :wink:
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Every days a school day :rolleyes:
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I want this kit :grin:
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isn't hard to make a far better water meth injection kit :wink:
plastic or stainless steel tank, pump wants to be good to pull a bout 4-5 bar depending on application, a fuel pressure regulator, old fuel rail, 4 injectors aproxamatly 1/4 size of of your primary fuel injectors. oil pressure switch, about 4 FETs, and some other components and bosh done
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Apparently pump needs atleast 200PSI to atomise the water properly?
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Apparently pump needs atleast 200PSI to atomise the water properly?
nearly 14 bar :shocked:
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all depends on the nossels, fuel injectors are a hell of a lot better at atomiseing stuff than simpel spray nossels :wink: only downside to the they are more complex and can corroed internaly so you need a dash of corrosion inhibitor in the mix idealy ( theory says )
the massive advantage of useing them is you can connect into the wireing harness for the fuel injectors and use that to trigger your water meth injectors.
this means your water/meth injectors share the duity cycel of the fuel injectors and so the water / fuel ratio stays constant. not X amount of water / meth wether it needed or not. 0.35 bar is a reasonable point to start injection if tuneing for economy more if its just for full welly power.
also useing injectors means water consumption is very predictable if on all the time 10 lts of water to every 40 ltrs of fuel but if sensing boost to bring it on it'll be a lot less
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I use an Aquamist water injection kit on my Mk2 16v Turbo. It injects through a 0.05mm jet into the top of the intercooler, it is atomised before it enters the throttle body.
The water cools the charged air, the cooler the air, the denser it becomes. The cooler the engine the less chance of detonation
When my car was setup on Stealth's rollers, after about 10 runs the inlet manifold was ice cold to the touch, Vince told me he had never done so many runs in a car without letting it cool in between. Stealth sometime after this became an agent for Aquamist.
Taken straight from Stealth's website:
Stealth Racing have now become an agent for ERL's Aquamist water injection product. Designed predominantly to provide in cylinder cooling for forced induction cars, these systems sit at the very front of the water injection market.
As any turbod or supercharged car owner will testify, a major threat to a force fed motor is the potential onset of detonation. This is the practice of spark plug igniting the fuel / air mixture before the piston has reached the top of it's sweep. The result (if left alone) is a damaged piston or two, leaving no other choice but to expensively rebuild the engine.
Methods of reducing the onset of detonation, include retarding the ignition timing or relying (where possible) on electronic control devices such as the knock sensor. Both of these will do the job, but retarding the timing will compromise the power output of the motor and relying on the flimsy safety net of a knock sensor is never a wise move!
A more effective method of preventing detonation, is to lower the in cylinder temperatures. Fuel is a good temperature cooler, but constantly dumping petrol into the engine is liable to wash the cylinder bores. Traditionally, intercooling or chargecooling are used to lower the temperature of boosted air before it reaches the engine. This is a very good start, but technical limitations mean that the efficiency of these cooling methods is plateaued and still will not prevent "pinking" in some applications. Enter water injection, a proven cooler in F1 and rally applications, now making a name for itself in fast road applications.
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Mine will run off boost pressure, which has controllable start point, and a controllable point to where it hits 100%.
Ive heard a 4 litre tank lasts roughly a tank of fuel :huh:
Guess we will find out soon enough :wink:
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Mine runs off boost pressure too, controlled by a MAP sensor, I need to set it all up again once the car is fully rebuilt
Depends how early you set it to come on and what jets you use as to how much water you use, and how heavy your right foot is!
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How much are you looking at to get a system like this installed?
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How much are you looking at to get a system like this installed?
Free... DIY :wink:
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How much are you looking at to get a system like this installed?
Free... DIY :wink:
Thought you might say that Dave... :rolleyes: :grin:
Alright then, how much would it be for the parts to do it yourself?
And, on the other hand, how much would it be to get someone (like stealth) who know what they are doing to do it?
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Depends if you buy a kit, or do something along the lines Danny_P suggested..
No idea about install from a garage, it would take about 1-2 hours to put in i suppose :huh:
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Fair enough. Sounds like a good system and i'm wondering why more people don't have it? or is it just that noone really says that they have it..?
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I reckon that a professional instal would take more than a couple of hours by the time everything is all fitted and plumbed in, then it needs to be setup, preferably on a rolling road.
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setup on the rollers ORLY ?
for a road setup your best off takeing the reasonable gains offer by lower intake temps and spark not been pulled by the ecu, no rolling road reqd. unless you want to be silly
the moment you start mapping around it you have to have it, you really want multipoint then thats controlled by the ecu, so you can work the meth content into your fueling. water injection has been around for ages as well as dopeing fuels with meth.
running mapped meth/water injection on the audi thats ecu controlled but that engine chould very easaly grenade with the power its pushing
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Im guna use the hand pump out of the vw split screen :laugh:
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Im guna use the hand pump out of the vw split screen :laugh:
I bet this ain't the only thing you use it on. :rolleyes:
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Kits and install are around the £600 mark iirc
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Surely its a bit more scientific setting up on a rolling road?
My car has adjustable boost and my water injection only runs at maximum boost to prevent detonation at these levels.
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If you can run a dedicated map for using water or methanol injection as well as a non activated map then yes, theres every reason to rolling road the car to get the best from the system. If you are restricted to a single map you would have to be wary not to take the new map outside of the adaptation range of the ECU when not running the water/meth injection for fear of running into severe detonation. Even keeping it on a stock map you will have one crap running car for a while after running the injection while the ECU adapts back to normal (assuming your ECU is intelligent enough to adapt of course!) and it wont just give you its best straight away for the same reason.
One other option is to inject onto the intercooler if using an air to air unit as that still lets you take advantage of the fact that water will absorb the heat faster than air reducing the slight tendancy of the intercooler to act as a thermal sink in times of high cooling demand.
One thing to be wary of if building your own injection system is that it doesnt leak water into the inlet when the engine is stopped and to make sure you dont use too large a jet as otherwise you might run into hydraulic lock if too much gets into the cylinders at any given time (unlikely but you never know lol).
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BTW, one thing I had never really thought about with methanol/ethanol is that using it will actually make the engine run very lean due to the high oxygen content in these fuels as well as the increased air density through the cooling effect. Something to think about if your not going to swing/alter the timing to suit it and you go mental with the quantities.
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the extra fuel in the meth is usally used as exactly that on singel point singel map systems, hence not setting it up on the rollers. when you get keen you take it into account but need to accuratly meter said water meth then, hence useing injectors for it rather than spray nossels.
to get more of gain on a singel map system put the spray nossel infrount of the last air tempritue sensor or move said sensor to a location downstream of the nossel