GolfGTIforum.co.uk
General => The garage => Topic started by: Chillly on 30 October 2011, 11:24
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One personal issue for me Guys is if you could shed some light on is this for instance a mk6 golf gt 2.0 tdi is 140 and the gtd 2.0 is 170. if mapping is safe and some of the stories are true that vw just map to give the 2.0 140 into 2.0 170 why do they spend extra money on a bigger turbo etc etc? And again if it was that simple and safe why would they not just map the 140 to 170 from stock? In fairness when doing those sums it does not add up. Im very curious about this Guys for the above concern and if and of you nice tuning guys could shed some light on this matter it would be very helpful and probably put alot of peoples minds at ease. Does a remap include turning up the turbo so to speak, and does the oil pump need changing or adjusting to increase oil flow as the turbo is working harder and faster. Guys i know very little about engines so excuse my noob :nerd: questions!
Over to you guys
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*** Eagerly awaits replies *** :grin:
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Pre production design criteria.
A team of people will produce a "plan" for ever aspect of the car build, fuel consumption, hot/cold start condtions, hp/torque, parts window tolerance %, throttle response, EOBD rules, Euro emissions, nosie, vibration, egts, power curve, fuel used per crank rotation under all conditions, WOT, idel, cruise ect..
Then its the job of the software calibrators to work with hardware designers and to sit on engine simulators trying to meet the criteria which has been set out on paper work
One of the parts of the criteria would be that the air flow to produce x amout of power at x lambda needs to be done by running the turbo at x amount of % of the turbos peak efficiency based on manufactors compressor map.
A stock 140pd @ 1.35bar might peak air flow at only 55% of the "compressor map" efficiency, then a basic safe remap would take the boost to 1.45-1.5bar and would end up closer to 70% efficiency and make a safe 180bhp but at a cost of a air fuel mix, and more fuel used per crank rotation when at 70%+ pedal position.
Petrol cars are much easier to meet eurbo emission rules, take the AUM and AUQ same hardware just the mapping on the AUQ takes it up by another 30bhp, due to how the ecu can control the emissions and egts. The AUQ has more power but better emission control.
They cannot just map a 140pd to 170 as to get the power to 170hp would mean running a richer lamba value which could be out of the Euro guide lines, and not meet the spec % of the compressor map
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Pre production design criteria.
A team of people will produce a "plan" for ever aspect of the car build, fuel consumption, hot/cold start condtions, hp/torque, parts window tolerance %, throttle response, EOBD rules, Euro emissions, nosie, vibration, egts, power curve, fuel used per crank rotation under all conditions, WOT, idel, cruise ect..
Then its the job of the software calibrators to work with hardware designers and to sit on engine simulators trying to meet the criteria which has been set out on paper work
One of the parts of the criteria would be that the air flow to produce x amout of power at x lambda needs to be done by running the turbo at x amount of % of the turbos peak efficiency based on manufactors compressor map.
A stock 140pd @ 1.35bar might peak air flow at only 55% of the "compressor map" efficiency, then a basic safe remap would take the boost to 1.45-1.5bar and would end up closer to 70% efficiency and make a safe 180bhp but at a cost of a air fuel mix, and more fuel used per crank rotation when at 70%+ pedal position.
Petrol cars are much easier to meet eurbo emission rules, take the AUM and AUQ same hardware just the mapping on the AUQ takes it up by another 30bhp, due to how the ecu can control the emissions and egts. The AUQ has more power but better emission control.
They cannot just map a 140pd to 170 as to get the power to 170hp would mean running a richer lamba value which could be out of the Euro guide lines, and not meet the spec % of the compressor map
Thanks for this mate.
They cannot just map a 140pd to 170 as to get the power to 170hp would mean running a richer lamba value which could be out of the Euro guide lines, and not meet the spec % of the compressor map
Forgive me for asking but is this for emissions purposes? As the 170 gtd is higher anyway which sort of defeats the issue does it not?
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Any tuner can map the 140 PD to have the 170bhp, more fuel then more boost to produce enough air for a cleaner combustion. VW could do this if they wanted BUT it would not meet there build criteria guide lines.
170PD has DPF to help with emissions control, If the emissions was not an issues then I dont think they would have tried to to use the DPF on a PD engine and go from Bosch to Siemens engine control for the sake of making an extra 30BHP. A DPF system works best on a CR enigne which allows for injection window across the whole crank rotation window unlike the PD which is limited by the cam and PD units.
I dont know too much about the newer CR engines hardware nor mapping, but I am sure Craig aka the The Doc from Carbon Tuning will chip in soon, what he dont know about the CRs engines and emission euro cycles aint worth knowing.. (He been looking after us and a dodge pot Passat 2.0TDi CR all week. :wink:)
Euro emission control is based on driving cycles not just peak power.
Just look at the effort VW went to going from 130pd to 150pd, the used a higher flow turbo and FMIC just for another 20bhp.
QUOTE op
and does the oil pump need changing
As far as I know ancillary parts like oil pumps, hfpf pumps, filters, bearing, cranks would be the same as these get over engineered in the first place and would cost £millions to design for every hp version.
Again the PD 130-150 engines use same fuel pumps, oil pump, PD units, crank ect. The same with the 1.8Ts using the same basic oil pumps used on the stock 150hp Golf and the stock 240hp Audi TT, a 90hp increase from the factory using the same pump and still be with in the safe criteria window.
If your wanting a remap on your mk6 then in IMHO I would take a trip upto see the guys at carbon chip tuning, yer you will say there are many tuners offer remaps for the mk6 TDI but as far as I know Carbon seem to have done the most testing and development on there own cars with proven results, which if I was looking for a remap would fill me with confidence compared to another tuner who just buy a file from a 3rd party flashes the map and parts you with your cash.
Nick
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Any tuner can map the 140 PD to have the 170bhp, more fuel then more boost to produce enough air for a cleaner combustion. VW could do this if they wanted BUT it would not meet there build criteria guide lines.
170PD has DPF to help with emissions control, If the emissions was not an issues then I dont think they would have tried to to use the DPF on a PD engine and go from Bosch to Siemens engine control for the sake of making an extra 30BHP. A DPF system works best on a CR enigne which allows for injection window across the whole crank rotation window unlike the PD which is limited by the cam and PD units.
I dont know too much about the newer CR engines hardware nor mapping, but I am sure Craig aka the The Doc from Carbon Tuning will chip in soon, what he dont know about the CRs engines and emission euro cycles aint worth knowing.. (He been looking after us and a dodge pot Passat 2.0TDi CR all week. :wink:)
Euro emission control is based on driving cycles not just peak power.
Just look at the effort VW went to going from 130pd to 150pd, the used a higher flow turbo and FMIC just for another 20bhp.
QUOTE op
and does the oil pump need changing
As far as I know ancillary parts like oil pumps, hfpf pumps, filters, bearing, cranks would be the same as these get over engineered in the first place and would cost £millions to design for every hp version.
Again the PD 130-150 engines use same fuel pumps, oil pump, PD units, crank ect. The same with the 1.8Ts using the same basic oil pumps used on the stock 150hp Golf and the stock 240hp Audi TT, a 90hp increase from the factory using the same pump and still be with in the safe criteria window.
If your wanting a remap on your mk6 then in IMHO I would take a trip upto see the guys at carbon chip tuning, yer you will say there are many tuners offer remaps for the mk6 TDI but as far as I know Carbon seem to have done the most testing and development on there own cars with proven results, which if I was looking for a remap would fill me with confidence compared to another tuner who just buy a file from a 3rd party flashes the map and parts you with your cash.
Nick
Thank you Nick, I do not see many indepth questions or answers on mapping to this extent and is probs the reason why alot of people are put off by it including me. I know there is alot of scare mongering out there for obvious reasons from car manufactures. and also from a buyers point of view a mind field of the good the bad and the ugly of who and what to choose. Thanks again Nick and maybe Doc will chip in too. :smiley:
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Speaking more broadly than just VW's implementation of turbochargers and injection systems to their vehicle applications, as a rule of thumb manufacturers will leave around 30% power reserve in their forced induction engines, especially turbo diesels.
This is mainly to comply with some stringent emissions regulations, to allow for a single vehicle platform that can cater for various geographic markets and climatic conditions, and of course, reliability and longetivity. A vehicle already tuned to near its peak achievable ceiling from the factory is far more likely to have a higher volume of warranty claims in the first 3 years than a vehicle that is detuned to well within its limits.
As a tuner I would love to say that tuning doesn't carry risks, but i would be lying. You will find that all the reputable tuners (both on this forum and not) will spend a long time perfecting their maps to ensure nothing over-tuned, and there is enough reserve left in there to ensure reliability... BUT we can't make power without pushing things harder. It's all about striking the right balance.
Tuning isn't a black art, but it is a skill.
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Speaking more broadly than just VW's implementation of turbochargers and injection systems to their vehicle applications, as a rule of thumb manufacturers will leave around 30% power reserve in their forced induction engines, especially turbo diesels.
This is mainly to comply with some stringent emissions regulations, to allow for a single vehicle platform that can cater for various geographic markets and climatic conditions, and of course, reliability and longetivity. A vehicle already tuned to near its peak achievable ceiling from the factory is far more likely to have a higher volume of warranty claims in the first 3 years than a vehicle that is detuned to well within its limits.
As a tuner I would love to say that tuning doesn't carry risks, but i would be lying. You will find that all the reputable tuners (both on this forum and not) will spend a long time perfecting their maps to ensure nothing over-tuned, and there is enough reserve left in there to ensure reliability... BUT we can't make power without pushing things harder. It's all about striking the right balance.
Tuning isn't a black art, but it is a skill.
Great information thank you very much.
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I will get around to this but it's gonna be a big one :grin:
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I will get around to this but it's gonna be a big one :grin:
(http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh252/Rtechremaps/lecture2.gif)
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i'm not one for essays, so i'll just post this and hope it makes sense :grin:
http://www.filefactory.com/file/cfc1748/n/me-motronic_engine_management_bosh.pdf