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General => The garage => Topic started by: leeroy20vt on 16 October 2011, 20:38

Title: what to do with crank
Post by: leeroy20vt on 16 October 2011, 20:38
any one got any ideas what this is sounds like its coming from top end but im not so sure 

its my mk2 track car

we went out yesterday to lydden and after the first session she got rather hot about 110 c for wat ever reason the fans didnt cut in   any how she wouldnt start on the starter or bumb start so left it to cool down eventully it started and sounded awfull heres the vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwY1ClU-Ck0


has any one got any ideas before i start stripping it

cheers
Title: Re: banging abf vid inc
Post by: dragongreengolfgti on 16 October 2011, 21:00
sounds like the timings gone on it have you checked the cam belt? definately a metallic knocking sound somethings hurt inside  :cry:
Title: Re: banging abf vid inc
Post by: leeroy20vt on 16 October 2011, 21:44
it not sound good does it  :cry:

havent checked any think yet not had time just thought id ask were to start

it did have new cam belt probs less than 500 miles ago  :sad:
Title: Re: banging abf vid inc
Post by: LowlifeDubber on 17 October 2011, 14:02
Sounds like its dropped a valve tbh mate.
Give it a compression test and stick your readings up. :smiley:
Title: Re: banging abf vid inc
Post by: dragongreengolfgti on 17 October 2011, 19:59
it not sound good does it  :cry:

havent checked any think yet not had time just thought id ask were to start

it did have new cam belt probs less than 500 miles ago  :sad:

Definately not a good sound no  :sad: Who done the cam belt ? possible the tensioner wasn't done up correct ? I'd start by the compression test first although the way it sounds somethings definately touching and may cause more damage the more its ran then you will be looking at other things to replace  :sad: I'd start by checking the tension of the belt and check the timing marks atleast then you can see if anythings moved! Then take the rocker cover off and see if anything is visible from the top i.e snapped cam chain ? abf inlet cam is ran from the exhaust chain  :undecided: i'm guessing its a head off job though  :sad: let us know how you get on sorry to hear about it i know your pain luckily its not your daily  :smiley:
Title: Re: banging abf vid inc
Post by: danny_p on 18 October 2011, 20:59
1stly id take the plugs out and have a look,   

if ones tight and wnt budge or come out and the ends smashed off it droped a valve

to be sure you can lift the cam cover and see if a tappet isn't fully returning.

or its possible you luffed a downchange and buzzed the engine and it caught a valve
Title: Re: banging abf vid inc
Post by: leeroy20vt on 20 October 2011, 05:23
Cheers not had a chance to look yet with working nights

i did cam belt so fingers crossed its not that lol

i may try and do a bit this afternoon i will let u know my findings when i do get out there
Title: Re: banging abf vid inc
Post by: leeroy20vt on 23 October 2011, 13:23
got rocker off nothink out of place in there

took sump off  :shocked:

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p319/leeroy8v/2011-10-23124947.jpg)

i have given up with this car now so will either be sold as is or broke for parts i havent got time to be messing about with them any more

cheers for the help tho
Title: Re: banging abf vid inc
Post by: dragongreengolfgti on 23 October 2011, 13:30
Dosn't look good mate wonder whats happened there  :sad: f17 bad is selling an abf engine could you not just put another engine in there thats about a days work then sell it on running what would you want for it as it is now?
Title: Re: banging abf vid inc
Post by: leeroy20vt on 23 October 2011, 13:47
i cant see anythink obvious but i think if i took head off answer would there

im not sure what it would be worth as it is tbh
Title: Re: banging abf vid inc
Post by: tech1889 on 23 October 2011, 14:03
well something has definately died in there mate..
Title: Re: banging abf vid inc
Post by: danny_p on 23 October 2011, 19:04
big end shells have left.

pop the caps on the con rods if the cranck looks ok and the shell caseings are still in the rods you can probs just wang some shells in and it'll be fine
Title: Re: banging abf vid inc
Post by: leeroy20vt on 23 October 2011, 20:43
big end shells have left.

pop the caps on the con rods if the cranck looks ok and the shell caseings are still in the rods you can probs just wang some shells in and it'll be fine

are they easy enough to get hold of danny p ?
Title: Re: banging abf vid inc
Post by: danny_p on 23 October 2011, 22:44
shells are easy enough to get hold of for the ABF, there not that expensive ether.

just have a good feel of and look at the cranck journals,  any slight marks can be removed with fine wet and dry but if you can see marks where it looks like it's been hammerd and or discolured the cranck needs out :(  and regrinding

same gose for the conrods if the backing plate of the bearing has fallen out and the rods been batterd on the bearign journal itself it will proably be out of round and un servicable.


but by teh sounds of it your has been caught quickly so should be no problems 
Title: Re: banging abf vid inc
Post by: leeroy20vt on 23 October 2011, 23:29
cheers m8 i will start takin lump out soon and have a proper look  :smiley:
Title: Re: banging abf vid inc
Post by: leeroy20vt on 28 October 2011, 10:57
can i just put new standard shells in or will i have to have different size ?
Title: Re: banging abf vid inc
Post by: leeroy20vt on 28 October 2011, 17:24
can i just put new standard shells in or will i have to have different size ?

found this today after i whipped the engine out

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p319/leeroy8v/2011-10-28163152.jpg)
do u think there foobared ?

anyway what u reckon has the crank had it here some pics sorry there not all that but was on my phone
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p319/leeroy8v/2011-10-28163216.jpg)
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p319/leeroy8v/2011-10-28163249.jpg)
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p319/leeroy8v/2011-10-28164217.jpg)
heres a pic of the a good one
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p319/leeroy8v/2011-10-28163234.jpg)

rite so i reckon if this is ok to fix i will need to put a new oil pump on just incase its full of metal filings and then do i rplace all the shells or just the one that foobarred

option 2 a friend has a bottom end that ament to be good could i drop the crank and shells out of that into my bottom end ?

cheers
Title: Re: banging abf vid inc
Post by: DOA on 28 October 2011, 17:33
Really need better focussed pictures to be sure but the crank journals and rod cap look fubar. If they are scored as bad as the picture seems to be saying Id be throwing another engine in there and keeping your current one for the top end bits (after stripping that to check nothings been floating up there).
Title: Re: banging abf vid inc
Post by: danny_p on 29 October 2011, 00:26
better pics needed

its perfectly fixable you may have to have the cranck reground, i would defantly do all the shells if ones gone trhe rest are going to be worn,   think it maybe to late for that con rod tho looks like the shells ripped it up a bit,   of needed i chould fin you a rod  have a box full of std abf rods
Title: Re: banging abf vid inc
Post by: leeroy20vt on 29 October 2011, 21:49
cheers danny i think if u got a cond rod let us know how much ect m8

im goin to take it to my local company and see what he says if he says yes its repairable then all gd

also whilst its there do u think its worth getting lightended and balanced would u recomend doin it ?
Title: Re: banging abf vid inc what to do with crank
Post by: leeroy20vt on 31 October 2011, 14:36
crank is now out and will be goin to local place to hopefully get sorted  :smiley:

danny p if i have got a spare con rod kicking let us know what u want for it fella

cheers
Title: Re: banging abf vid inc what to do with crank
Post by: danny_p on 31 October 2011, 22:14
just cover the p&p 
Title: Re: banging abf vid inc what to do with crank
Post by: leeroy20vt on 02 November 2011, 18:26
crank is to far gone  :angry:  danny p dont sopose u got one of those as well i sent u a pm  :smiley:
Title: Re: banging abf vid inc what to do with crank
Post by: DOA on 03 November 2011, 18:02
Just a small point but are you going to be stripping the engine before putting a new crank in or just leaving it? Looking at those shells and the fact your crank has obviously bitten the dust theres every chance there is crap floating all the way through the oilways waiting to drop back into the crank journals and take out another crank. Maybe me just being anal but.....
Title: Re: banging abf vid inc what to do with crank
Post by: danny_p on 03 November 2011, 23:35
will have a look see what crancks i have kicking about not sure if i have any std 2ltr ones tho.

crud dosent tend to go up the oilways the oil pump sees to that, tho it is alays good practice to removethe oil pump and blast all the oil ways out, i use air and thinners normaly, also very worh blasting out the oilways in the cranck   just to get the sludge out so new bearings last longer.

sadly if the cranck is fecked your better off looking for a new bottom end if a few shells and a 2nd hand rod would have fixed it its worth doing but when your into shells, rod, cranck you may as well completly rebuild or get another motor
Title: Re: banging abf vid inc what to do with crank
Post by: leeroy20vt on 04 November 2011, 09:13
cheers danny i have sourced another bottom end for 80 quid so will probs get that #

the problem i got is i have only just got new log book thru comfirming engine number as the car was a 1.3 and they haventasked to see it so didnt really want to rock the boat by sending away again for another engine change as it was a pain in the arse to sort this one lol

i was just thinking blowing it out with a compressor to get any sh!t that mayby in there
Title: Re: what to do with crank
Post by: leeroy20vt on 08 November 2011, 20:14
rite found a complete bottom end now how do i go about putting the crank out of that bottom end into mine ]

i was thinking crank and conrods but my pistons

also can i just buy a set of standard new shells to put in it or will i have to have it measured

cheers
Title: Re: what to do with crank
Post by: danny_p on 09 November 2011, 00:27
fit the bottom end compet is best bet.

if you want to fit the crank o your bottom end    you'll need to check the cranck journals for size ( well you should do ) but 99% of the time they'll still be std

as for pistons whatever set you fit clean them up probly worth a set of rings and hone of the bores
Title: Re: what to do with crank
Post by: leeroy20vt on 09 November 2011, 18:24
cheers again danny p only reason i want my original bottom end is 1 its got loads of service history 2 engine number unless u got any ideas around this ?
Title: Re: what to do with crank
Post by: Khare on 09 November 2011, 20:34
cheers again danny p only reason i want my original bottom end is 1 its got loads of service history 2 engine number unless u got any ideas around this ?

Might have loads of history but it's obviously fcuked. You're better off replacing the bottom end as Danny said, it'll work out cheaper and easier.
Title: Re: what to do with crank
Post by: danny_p on 10 November 2011, 00:39
cheers again danny p only reason i want my original bottom end is 1 its got loads of service history 2 engine number unless u got any ideas around this ?

working vw engines are like sleeping dogs,   if your new bottom end is sound pulling the cranck and swap it into another block for the fun of it is like tiping the dog out of one basket into another   it may well bite you. 

IMO you have two choices at the end of day

1)  take new bottom end, fit it and b done
2) take ether block and fully rebuild

obviously the 2nd is the better option but it costs to rebuild an engine properly, unless your going to modify it i'd just fit the new bottom end as is,  you chould obvious swap crank to keep the enigne number but in my book that just volantry extra work
Title: Re: what to do with crank
Post by: leeroy20vt on 11 November 2011, 19:07
head is off old engine and being cleaned do u think its worth having it skimmed ?? and were would u say to get headgasket gsf/euros ?

im goin to just put the new bottom end in i have so job done

then find a cheap crank/bottom end to rebuild my original at a later date

cheers for the help so far
Title: Re: what to do with crank
Post by: danny_p on 11 November 2011, 23:28
you chould get a straight edge and check it for distortion useing thou gadges and then clean the head up but the finish on the cyl head MLS gaskets is critical, they need to be flatter than with composit gaskets  i would advise to have it skimed, then you have the pice of mind knowing that you have a head thats truely flat and with a good surface finish it's allways good practice to skim alloy heads anyway,  it's also a pita if you have to redo a gasket for the sake of 30 quid
Title: Re: what to do with crank
Post by: leeroy20vt on 16 November 2011, 18:51
cheers again danny i would normally have it skimmed but would just thought i would ask it will hopefully be booked in for next week to have the skim once its stripped

well new bottom end all cleaned up and nearly ready to go in just got a few bits to do in the engine bay new steering rack boots and poly bushes for steering rack

also i have a servo out of a seat toledo 16v will this fit ?? any ideas as i still have the 1.3 servo on there with a mk3 16v m/c
Title: Re: what to do with crank
Post by: danny_p on 17 November 2011, 00:24
good question  i have no idea TBH

recently with brakes i've been tending to down grade servos,  to give more pedal feel  as found with light cars with big brakes the pedal can become very on / off affair and less servo assistance can help you modulate your brakeing more
Title: Re: what to do with crank
Post by: leeroy20vt on 17 November 2011, 10:58
Mayby il just leave the 1,3 in there then

i need to get some weight over the rear so washer bottle and battery relocation is in order that may stop the back from bein a little twitchy
Title: Re: what to do with crank
Post by: leeroy20vt on 24 November 2011, 17:58
should there be any play in the shells from side to side theres none up and down if that makes sense
Title: Re: what to do with crank
Post by: danny_p on 26 November 2011, 00:36
the cranck is held by thrust washeres so there should be littel to no play side to side,    the con rods you can push side to side a bit thast normal as there floating
Title: Re: what to do with crank
Post by: leeroy20vt on 26 November 2011, 11:24
Yer con rods have a little side to side movement crank is all gd cheers dannyp
Title: Re: what to do with crank
Post by: Veronica on 28 November 2011, 07:11
I purchased a 1972 t120v motor that was rebuilt. The motor was locked up and the reason was unknown. I pulled the top end and it was new and looked perfect. It was not untill I got to the point where I unbolted the case halfs that the crank would turn free. The bearings and all look great. I have tried to install the crank in the cases but as they are tightened down, the crank will lock up. What do you think? wrong bearings? Too much torque on the bolts? The bearings seem to be installed correctly. Should I buy a new crank? Help please!
Title: Re: what to do with crank
Post by: Len on 28 November 2011, 10:16
Wrong crank/wrong bearings!

The crank should be machine ground and new bearings fitted to suit the new grind.
Title: Re: what to do with crank
Post by: danny_p on 28 November 2011, 20:50
as above 

probaly has undersize bearing shells and a std size cranck , or cranck ground to 1st undersize and 2nd undersize bearings.

find a frendly engine shop or machenist and ask them to measure the journals  then peel the shells out and see what size they are,  another option is plastigadgue
Title: Re: what to do with crank
Post by: tweed on 10 December 2011, 07:59
That's my old engine
Title: Re: what to do with crank
Post by: leeroy20vt on 10 December 2011, 15:56
That's my old engine

whats ur old engine ?
Title: Re: what to do with crank
Post by: tweed on 10 December 2011, 21:48
The one in the vid. You bought my old mk3 16v with smashed front end??? About two years ago??
Title: Re: what to do with crank
Post by: leeroy20vt on 11 December 2011, 05:04
The one in the vid. You bought my old mk3 16v with smashed front end??? About two years ago??

yes mate i did it done well till then  :grin:  have u got yourself another mk3 now
Title: Re: what to do with crank
Post by: tweed on 11 December 2011, 17:54
The one in the vid. You bought my old mk3 16v with smashed front end??? About two years ago??

yes mate i did it done well till then  :grin:  have u got yourself another mk3 now

I'm sorry it's f**ked but you've had fun no doubt  :grin:

yeah mate got a clean 8v and a vr6 lol

hope you fix it  :wink:
Title: Re: what to do with crank
Post by: leeroy20vt on 11 December 2011, 22:07
no need to be sorry bud the sh!t it went thru it was goin to happen sooner or later lol

ur just being greedy lol 8v and a vr6 haha

and its running now new bottom end and rebuilt ur old head sorted  :smiley: