GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk2 => Topic started by: Mart8V on 22 April 2005, 18:27
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How long should the standard springs go on for? The back end seems to be looking a little down on mine- done about 115k. Shocks are only 12 months old so no problems there.
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They seem to last about 10 years and then it starts looking obvious that they are sinking.
The problem i found was that the original kit from VW makes the car look a bit "high" when you replace them. The sunk look looks a bit low, but new kit looks too high.
I found a happy medium with Eibachs. Doesnt look lowered, but doesn't do an impression of a Country.
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Would I need to replace all 4 or can I get away with just the rear set? I am assuming that to replace just a pair could mess up the handling....?
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you can just do the rear two, but you might as well do the fronts as well and be done with it. they'll only need doing eventually anyway.
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mine sags quite a bit on the back aswell, mines done 199k miles, :smiley: but it doesnt smoke, and is very healthy!
Even my mates 8v sags a bit on the back and thats done 120k.
Wasnt it common for mk2's to sit lower on the back?
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MK2s look lower at the back due to the design of the rear arches. The main reason they sag at the back is the bumpstops and rubber upper spring locating mounts wear and split causing the back to sit low. If I were you I'd get a full set of springs, top mounts/bumpstops/rubber mountings etc all round :)
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Thanks for that, guys. Can I use the Eibachs with standard shocks? They seem to do a set which only lower 20mm (I want to keep things as standard as poss) which are the ones I would be going for.
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You should be OK as long as they're genuine VAG GTI shockers :)
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The main reason they sag at the back is the bumpstops and rubber upper spring locating mounts wear and split causing the back to sit low.ÂÂÂ
Not at all. The main reason for springs sinking is siezed brake calipers, this especially is a problem on mk2's :wink:
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How can siezed rear calipers make the back end sag?!
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You should be OK as long as they're genuine VAG GTI shockers :)
Fronts are, think last owner had Kwik Fit ones put on rear, but they are only 12 months old. Not sure about the calipers thing, as both are fine. :huh:
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Well basically fit em, and see how you go
all that will happen is they'll wear out faster. It might also cause the handling to go a bit funny in the worst case, but if so just fit a set of std 16v shockers. They are quite cheap to buy from GSF/VW.
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Cheers for the help. Will see how I go without 16v shocks to start with..... Must stop spending money, must stop spending money, must stop, oh sod it!!
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rubjonny wrote "How can siezed rear calipers make the back end sag?!"
You don't seem to understand the basics of engineering mate.
When the handbrake mechanism isn't releasing properly it makes the handbrake bind and this actually creates a drag on the disc. This constant drag causes the springs to compress as your car is driving against resistance and hence the back is being pulled down.
Leave your handbrake on and try driving off, what happens to the back of the car?
does it go down?
Also how can a bumpstop cause the back of the car to sag?
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While I'm on it, is there anything to stop me putting 16v springs and shocks all round instead of the Eibachs? Baby on way, so money a small consideration....!
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Yes i understand that DRIVING with siezed calipers will make the back drop slightly, but you're hardly going to notice when you're driving?!  Plus it wont still be doing it when the car has stopped eh?
Look, you don't have to act like all high and mighty, it was a perfectly reasonable question.  :grin:
'Don't understand the basics of engineering' don't take the piss mate.
The bumpstops and rubber spring mounts affect the ridehight at the back. The rubber spring mount splits causing the rear end to drop slightly, then bumpstop eventually gets buggered as the car is riding on it more, dropping it still further:
http://www.btinternet.com/~john.wintle2/article/Sagging_suspension/Bumpstops.htm
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16v shocks & springs will fit straight on mate, the only thing you might notice is the front may sit slightly higher as the springs are set up to compensate for the extra weight of the 16v up front. I'm not sure exactly how much heavier the 16v motor is though?
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Yes i understand that DRIVING with siezed calipers will make the back drop slightly, but you're hardly going to notice when you're driving?!  Plus it wont still be doing it when the car has stopped eh?
Look, you don't have to act like all high and mighty, it was a perfectly reasonable question.  :grin:
'Don't understand the basics of engineering' don't take the piss mate.
The bumpstops and rubber spring mounts affect the ridehight at the back. The rubber spring mount splits causing the rear end to drop slightly, then bumpstop eventually gets buggered as the car is riding on it more, dropping it still further:
http://www.btinternet.com/~john.wintle2/article/Sagging_suspension/Bumpstops.htm
Hey I gave you a perfectly reasonable answer mate, so don't get arsey pal.
Mk3's don't suffer from rear suspension sag like mk2's, does that tell you something?
Also bump stops are exactly that BUMPSTOPS, they stop the suspension bottoming out on maximum compression, they will NOT make the car sag.
Start working on cars mate, you might learn something  :laugh:
Quoting off clubgti won't really impress  :evil:
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Look do you have a problem with me or what? Look I was wrong about the header tank level sender, there I admit it! :grin: :laugh:
Can you leave off now please? Whats wrong with having a normal discussion without people ripping the piss eh?
I'm telling you the rear bumpstops do help support the back end and are part of the rear damping mechanism. Why do you think they are big and made of foam unlike the fronts which are small and rubber? Admittidly they do not support the rear normally, but they do if you have a large load in the back.
The UPPER RUBBER SPRING MOUNTS will always affect the rear ride hight. They commonly wear and split which causes the spring to sit further upwards and the rear will drop slightly. Notice in all my posts I mention the spring mounts as well as the bump stops?
I don't know if the MK3 suffers or not, but I know the main reason people notice on the MK2 is that even when everything is OK the rear 'looks' slightly lower due to the design of the rear arches. So any drop however slight will make it look more obvious.
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Start working on cars mate, you might learn something  :laugh:
Quoting off clubgti won't really impress  :evil:
WTF do you know about me eh? Nothing! I do all the repair work on my car, I don't claim to know everything and am willing to learn and admit when I'm wrong. There's just no need for sarcy comments like this is there really? Non of what I wrote was just quoted off 'some bloke on clubgti' It was from that thechnical article above which gives you a step by step guide showing you exactly what causes the problem and how to fix it.
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Off course i'll leave off, so admit i am right  :laugh:, seizing brake calipers is a major problem on mk2's, compressing the springs constantly will eventually make them sag, this much is obvious.
The upper bushes and components on the suspension can cause a slight drop, however if they are that bad you will know about it, as the suspension will knock like a f**k*r  :evil:
You are still wrong about the bump stops, they do not support the suspension, they stop it compressing too far.
So are we friends again?  :kiss: :kiss:
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Start working on cars mate, you might learn something  :laugh:
Quoting off clubgti won't really impress  :evil:
WTF do you know about me eh? Nothing! I do all the repair work on my car, I don't claim to know everything and am willing to learn and admit when I'm wrong. There's just no need for sarcy comments like this is there really? Non of what I wrote was just quoted off 'some bloke on clubgti' It was from that thechnical article above which gives you a step by step guide showing you exactly what causes the problem and how to fix it.
Touchy touchy, put your handbag away :rolleyes:
I'm not doubting your technical knowledge at all.
Infact the next time i want my bins emptied i'll ask you for a step by step guide :laugh: :kiss:
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I never said you were wrong did I? What pissed me off was how you've basically been implying that I know feck all and what I'm saying isn't true.
Let me break it down:
The upper spring mounts do wear and split cauing a slight drop
The bump stops while they don't support the suspension the whole time, are needed to keep the back up when you are carrying a large load, and do perform damping as well. Which is why the back end can crash so badly with alot of weight in the back if they are completely gone.
I agree that if the rear calipers are siezing the back will go down, and if left unnfixed for a long time wont do the rear springs any good. All I asked is why you said it, you know to learn something! You could have just replied nicely rather than saying that I 'don't understand the basics of engineering' and giving me a load of grief.
I know the primary function of bumpstops is to stop the spring compressing too far :) But they do help the rear damping, honestly! Like I said before, that is why they are much larger than the front bump stops and are made of foam.
P.S. and the rear calipers on early MK3s are identical to the MK2 ones, so what does that tell you?
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Indeed mk3 calipers 1992 are the same as mk2 calipers. 1993 onwards have the modified design.
What that tells me is vw were using up old stock, and changing the design as soon as possible.
Let me break it down for you again.
I agree about the upper spring mounts and bushings, however the effect on ride height is likely to be minimal.
The bump stops do perform a damping job, yes they do, but only when the suspension is compressed so far. BUT with the car standing still, the bumpstops won't affect the height of the car unless the spring is so far gone, in which case you would know about it. So the bumpstops being knackered WON'T be the cause of the car sagging on the rear, this will be caused by heavy wear on the coil spring.
Heavy wear on the rear coil springs will be caused eventually if the boot is always heavily loaded.
The wear will accelerated by seized brake calipers.
So yes i stand by my original comments, rear suspension sag is far more likely to be caused by seized brake calipers.
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I didn't mean that knackered bumpstops on their own would cause the rear to drop. I meant a combination of the two would cause the back end to sit lower especially if there is a load in the back because the springs would be more compressed (which would also likely be buggered if the bumpstops and top mounts are that worn) and so the bump stops would then come into play.
I agree with all your points, especially your point about knackered springs. The only thing I don't agree with is that the springs are most likely to be knackered because of siezed calipers, though I do agree that it can and does happen that way. Lets agree to disagree on that one :) The way I see it most owners would notice their rear calipers had siezed almost straight away and fix it, it isn't something you can miss really. Plus it affects all MK2s, including those with rear drums which are much less likely to sieze on.
In almost all cases where the rear springs are buggered the top mounts and bumpstops will be too, and make the problem worse. Some people/garages might not replace the other components and just fix the obvious spring/damper combo, which still leakes you with a knackered top mount.
I would say the top mount and bump stop will wear out much faster than the springs though, since they are only rubber and foam. But that is just my oppinion really ;)
The important thing to say after all this is that the shocks, springs top mounts and bump stops should ALL be replaced when sorting the suspension, as they all will lead to a saggy rear end :grin:
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Ok, but what would cause a coil spring to wear prematurely?
Heavy load over a long period of time, or partially seized or sticky brake calipers.
I agree with what you said about upper suspension bushings being worn causing a slight sag in height, however the bump stops/bushings being knackered aren't going to have much impact on ride height.
What will happen is if these components are heavily worn will be the suspension will knock.
What was originally asked on this thread was 'why is the back end sagging?'
the answer is obviously got to be worn coil springs.
However we do agree that only solution is to replace the lot, if in any doubt about the condition of the components.
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Well if the springs are the original ones that were fitted then they could just be knackered, he never said that he had replaced the springs as well as the shocks.
The question 'why is the back end sagging' can have many answers, one is coil springs, the other is knackered top mounts. These combined with the fact that the MK2 looks lower at the back anyway due to the design of the arches means that even a small drop is noticable.
The fact of the matter is both springs and/or top mounts can cause sagginess at the rear, so both mine and your answers were valid :)
Plus top mounts and bump stops should always be replaced at the same time as springs and shocks, unless they are very new. They are so cheap to buy its really false echonomy not to.
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Some more info! Having been through all of the receipts from previous owner it appears that the rear springs are original. As I have just had the front strut tops done I am guessing the rears may be on their way as well, but not had a chance to get underneath and check condition or stops.
Regarding calipers, NSR was binding so replaced it a couple of months ago. OSR seems fine, and no evidence of binding when pads were replaced recently.
Thanks for the help so far, though.
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Yup I would definitely replace the springs, top mounts and bump stops. The good news is the rear is much easier to do than the front, no special tools required, and you can usually get away without using spring compressors too :)
Check this site for a good guide on what you're up against:
http://www.btinternet.com/~john.wintle2/article/Sagging_suspension/Bumpstops.htm
I would get:
Rear Top Mount Kit Includes 2 upper and 2 lower mounts
Rear Spring Plate Upper spring mounting plate x2
Rear Bumpstop x2
And either a pair of 8v or 16v rear springs :)
From here:
http://www.vwspares.co.uk/g2suspension.html
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Great stuff- thanks for that. Will be a short term fix until I can afford the full set!
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While I'm on it, is there anything to stop me putting 16v springs and shocks all round instead of the Eibachs? Baby on way, so money a small consideration....!
eibachs are cheaper. half as much as the VAG parts.
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Discovered that today while pricing up. Bit of an eye opener!