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General => General discussion => Topic started by: jamrock on 04 August 2011, 19:05
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14400246
:smiley:
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Hopefully we'll start clearing some chavs off the streets :grin:
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serious repeat offenders, child abusers and dangerous rapist gotten rid of is enough.
would be no more credit crunch.
all the money saved can provide services for the needy.
if i said lets kill this child rapist and the money that we would have spent on him can be used to help an injuried service man get new legs/arms etc.... only people who got nothing better to do will disagree.
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this is good stuff .... :smiley:
power of the people
for the people
by the people :cool:
where have we heard this before ??????? mmmmmmm
the good old U.S.of A. :smug:
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd478/gimp6969/american-flag-wallpapers_6121_1280x800.jpg)
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Morally I don't think I could vote in favour for the death penalty. Taking a life, no matter what the crime is not the way forward.
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I would hang em for nothing!
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Morally I don't think I could vote in favour for the death penalty. Taking a life, no matter what the crime is not the way forward.
Really? Have you got children? If it was your child/children that was murderd/raped/abused by someone you could happily sit back see your hard earned money get taxed, to keep this person alive...whilst you buy their Xbox and 3 meals a day..
I certainly couldn't..
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the good old U.S.of A.
There is nothing good, or particularly old about the USA.
They have around 10,000 gun-related deaths per year. How is that good?
The whole economy is teetering on the edge of bankrupcy. How is that good?
They are the most obese nation in the world. How is that good?
They're using fossil fuels like it's going out of fashion, despite the fact that they're running out themselves. How is that good?
The suggestion of bringing back the death penalty is not only morally abhorant and disgusting it is absurd, unworkable and impossible to undo.
There is always a shadow of a doubt.
Once you've nodded like an idiot at the prospect of bringing back the death penalty, ask yourself this question - 'should the state be capable of taking my life?'. Still nodding?
Now hard labour in jails, that's a much better idea.
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the good old U.S.of A.
Once you've nodded like an idiot at the prospect of bringing back the death penalty, ask yourself this question - 'should the state be capable of taking my life?'. Still nodding?
Now hard labour in jails, that's a much better idea.
I agree prison should be a lot harder, but still if someone has committed a crime so horrific why should they be allowed the right to live?
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I don't and have never believed they should bring it back, making prison harder is a better step foward.
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I don't and have never believed they should bring it back, making prison harder is a better step foward.
+1
The death penalty should never ever be reinstated.
nick
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Interesting. But how many of the proposed ideas will actually get a 'full debate in the house of commons'? I just don't see it happening. Ideas such as the death penalty and capital punishment were gotten rid of a while back for various reasons, and now we are a more 'developed' and 'politically correct' nation they definitely wont even bother considering such a proposal.
I think it is a great idea giving the public the possible ability to get the nations thoughts voiced. But I just don't see it happening.
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I don't and have never believed they should bring it back, making prison harder is a better step foward.
+1
The death penalty should never ever be reinstated.
nick
States in Amercia that still have the death penalty have a higher rate of homicides than in states that do not, so it doesn't work to put people off either.
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if someone has committed a crime so horrific why should they be allowed the right to live?
Neither you, nor a full court can ever be 100% confident that this is true.
If it turns out not to be true you are completely unable to take back the action of killing someone.
But how many of the proposed ideas will actually get a 'full debate in the house of commons'? I just don't see it happening. Ideas such as the death penalty and capital punishment were gotten rid of a while back for various reasons, and now we are a more 'developed' and 'politically correct' nation they definitely wont even bother considering such a proposal.
It keeps people busy and looking the other way, while the Government are off doing things more important to them. :grin:
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I don't and have never believed they should bring it back, making prison harder is a better step foward.
+1
The death penalty should never ever be reinstated.
nick
States in Amercia that still have the death penalty have a higher rate of homicides than in states that do not, so it doesn't work to put people off either.
Those states have high gun numbers iirc though.
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Morally I don't think I could vote in favour for the death penalty. Taking a life, no matter what the crime is not the way forward.
Really? Have you got children? If it was your child/children that was murderd/raped/abused by someone you could happily sit back see your hard earned money get taxed, to keep this person alive...whilst you buy their Xbox and 3 meals a day..
I certainly couldn't..
Yes, I have 3 daughters aged 11, 4 and 17 months. I also have family members that I can no longer see, talk to or spend time with - one of whom was my uncle and more of a father to me than my own father - because someone else has taken their life for no good reason at all. Do I still think it's a stupid idea to want it back? YES.
May you and your family never know what our family has gone through.
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Those states have high gun numbers iirc though.
Another illustration of how stupid the USA is. :grin:
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I can't help but think that this has been brought into the news to take our minds off other things.
I can't see the death penalty ever coming back, no matter how much of a deterrent it would be against crimes that currently see a lenient and cushy scentencing.
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Bloody stupid idea that is proven not to work.
Those states have high gun numbers iirc though.
Ever watched Bowling for Columbine where Michael Moore walks into some Canadians houses which are unlocked? They all had guns but were thoroughly pleasant to him despite him wandering in without warning, try that in the states. Gun ownership does not mean gun abuse. Stupidity, low education standards, reactionary and biased media and poor quality of life does.
Now hard labour in jails, that's a much better idea.
WORD! If done correctly this could be a really positive thing for the country for example by training people whilst forcing them to work on worthwhile civic projects. Trouble is, it costs money and requires a long term political strategy that all parties would support and I suspect the EU would have a hissy fit about the prisoners rights not being upheld.
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I think people wouldn't be pushing it if prison wasn't so easy..
You take a life, you spend your life in prison. Nothing but your minimum right to eat and sh!t and a tiny window in a small cell. That's it!
I want it back, even if that be through sheer ignorance. Still think that if they are 100% guilty of an horrific crime, they deserve to die.
Look at that dude in Norway recently, you telling me he doesn't deserves to die?
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Look at that dude in Norway recently, you telling me he doesn't deserves to die?
No he doesn't.
Fascists don't need a martyr.
He deserves to spend the rest of his miserable existence mostly alone, either regreting what he did or institutionalised because he is mentally ill.
I want it back, even if that be through sheer ignorance. Still think that if they are 100% guilty of an horrific crime, they deserve to die.
Let's just get this clear: You want to lower yourself to the level of a killer on some sort of vengeful trip?
And you're happy for the state to kill you, are you?
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The death penalty is state sponsored murder.
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You see the film with Kate Winslett regarding the death Penalty
Was superb, about a guy she is trying to get off. (off death row)
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don't we have any of the colonies left to send them off to :grin: :lipsrsealed:
like the idea of bringing it back.
Wont work though the council can't clean my bins on time, and lock up grannies for mixing up recycling.
i dont want to be put down for littering or whatever else they feel like having a purge on
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I agree it shouldnt be brought back. Pretty much for all the reasons above. Leaving someone to rot in a jail for the rest of their life is in my belief a much worse punishment, than ending it all for them.
Normally in these instances when murderers etc get caught their life is over as they know it anyway, so why give them the easy way out by killing them? Yes end their life, but in a way they have to deal with it being over, because let's face it, whatever our beliefs are none of us know what comes after life.
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The problem is life should mean life, except for exceptional circumstances.
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we could always ship them off to clear mines somewhere sunny and wartorn
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The death penalty shouldn't come back.
What we need as a society is:
a) a real deterrent for crime - proper hard time, it's all to soft
b) law enforcement with real powers and able to deal with crimes quickly and properly
c) kids taught proper respect for others so that they don't steal, abuse, harm or kill others.
d) parents need to be able to teach their kids right from wrong
e) kids need to have role models and aspirations to grow up and be a good citizen
So really it all starts with parents/guardians bringing up their kids, educating them and doing all they can to help them become a good part of society. But that will only work for the current kids, there are too many who are already trouble makers and for them we need a) and b).
See this article about how important good parenting is to society: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14403919 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14403919)
Yes I am a parent, but even if one of my kids was a victim of serious crime, I still wouldn't want the death penalty.
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Let him have it :lipsrsealed:
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I want it back, even if that be through sheer ignorance. Still think that if they are 100% guilty of an horrific crime, they deserve to die.
Let's just get this clear: You want to lower yourself to the level of a killer on some sort of vengeful trip?
And you're happy for the state to kill you, are you?
I completely respect yours and everyone elses comments but, Yes. An eye for an eye.
Is it really any different to 'going to war' that everyone so strongly supports.. ?
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Is it really any different to 'going to war' that everyone so strongly supports.. ?
Yes, it is and not everyone supports going to war or even having a full army operating in the roles they currently do.
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Morally I don't think I could vote in favour for the death penalty. Taking a life, no matter what the crime is not the way forward.
agree...
make them earn their keep... and stop cheap imports from china all in one go :laugh:
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I want it back, even if that be through sheer ignorance. Still think that if they are 100% guilty of an horrific crime, they deserve to die.
Let's just get this clear: You want to lower yourself to the level of a killer on some sort of vengeful trip?
And you're happy for the state to kill you, are you?
I completely respect yours and everyone elses comments but, Yes. An eye for an eye.
Is it really any different to 'going to war' that everyone so strongly supports.. ?
Completely agree Wherry. A miserable life is no punishment for what some of these people have done.
Agreed they must be 100% guilty.
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Another twist on the opinions that are against the death penalty....
What about a killer etc knowing full well that 'if I commit this crime and get caught, I WILL face the death penalty'.
They KNOW it will be the punishment, yet they proceed with the crime?
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Another twist on the opinions that are for the death penalty....
What if you are falsely accused and evidence is planted so you appear '100% guilty' of murder and you're convicted of murder and killed by the state.
Two years later the falsification is uncovered and you're acquitted.
You're still dead though.
This is you, not 'the evil killer' because 'the evil killer' is you, not some mystical figure.
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I remember another news thing like this about us having to pay for our bins getting emptied
We already do pay for it with council tax.
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Making prison harder an more profitable would be a step in the right direction.
Sweat shops staffed entirely by unpaid prisoners.
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IF the law was changed so that if you were caught speeding, you would lose your licence forever.
Would you risk speeding?
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IF the law was changed so that if you were caught speeding, you would lose your licence forever.
Would you risk speeding?
Yes, this happened to me, I was fortunate enough to prove in a retrial that I was innocent and had my conviction overturned and my licence reinstated.
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IF the law was changed so that if you were caught speeding, you would lose your licence forever.
Would you risk speeding?
Yes, this happened to me, I was fortunate enough to prove in a retrial that I was innocent and had my conviction overturned and my licence reinstated.
My question was somewhat allegorical to highlight something in this debate, but well done on your appeal. :smiley:
Death Penalty. Not so much a punishment as a deterrent?
Purpose of prison?
1. Punishment.
2. Protection of the innocent.
3. Rehabilitation.
If all of the above are not satisfied, then isn't death the optimum solution?
Granted there were a few people who were hanged who may have been "not guilty", but, forensic science etc. has come a long way since then.
A loss of liberty is not the fearsome prospect it once was. A criminal is no longer imprisoned like the Count of Monte Cristo. No. They have 3 square meals a day, TV and playstations, access to drugs/sex and all in all a pretty cushy time. AND, they get paid for any work they do. It is well documented about the instances of prisoners coming out a better criminal than when they went in.
No state want's to kill its citizens. So an awful deterrent is preferable.
e.g.
Nuclear weapons, bright yellow crook locks. :rolleyes:
Today, there is NO deterrent.
Criminals know they will probably serve only half of their term, and that served in prison will be fairly easy. They might even come out a better criminal.
God bless The Human Rights Act.
Have your watched Supernanny?
Image we all had a naughty step. This country would be a far safer place.
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Many states in the US have the death penalty, doesn't appear to work as much of a deterrent there? :undecided:
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Statistics old boy.
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“I personally am opposed to the death penalty,†said H. Naci Mocan, an economist at Louisiana State University and an author of a study finding that each execution saves five lives. “But my research shows that there is a deterrent effect.â€
“The evidence on whether it has a significant deterrent effect seems sufficiently plausible that the moral issue becomes a difficult one,†said Cass R. Sunstein, a law professor at the University of Chicago who has frequently taken liberal positions. “I did shift from being against the death penalty to thinking that if it has a significant deterrent effect it’s probably justified"
Professor Sunstein and Adrian Vermeule, a law professor at Harvard, wrote in their own Stanford Law Review article that “the recent evidence of a deterrent effect from capital punishment seems impressive, especially in light of its ‘apparent power and unanimity,’ †quoting a conclusion of a separate overview of the evidence in 2005 by Robert Weisberg, a law professor at Stanford, in the Annual Review of Law and Social Science.
“Capital punishment may well save lives,†the two professors continued. “Those who object to capital punishment, and who do so in the name of protecting life, must come to terms with the possibility that the failure to inflict capital punishment will fail to protect life.â€
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/18/us/18deter.html?pagewanted=all
Etc..
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My objection isn't on the basis of 'protecting life' it's on the basis of doing something irreparable and also on the basis that I'm not comfortable with the state having the ability to take my life.
You're comfortable with the state taking your life, are you?
Forensic science will improve, controls will be found and things will be put in place to ensure processes don't go wrong. At every turn techniques to deceive forensic science, defeat the controls and pervert the processes will develop alongside the initial developments. This is why no decision is 100% and no guilt is ever 100%.
I never want to be the 0.1 or 1% that things fail for, especially if it involves the state taking my life mistakenly, because someone decided they wanted to see me responsible for something they did.
As Guy has already pointed out - the death penalty hasn't been much of a deterrent in the United State of Cluster-f*ckery. As I've pointed out criminals don't start out thinking they'll get caught, or they wouldn't do what they do in the first place.
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My objection isn't on the basis of 'protecting life' it's on the basis of doing something irreparable and also on the basis that I'm not comfortable with the state having the ability to take my life.
I am not opposed to the death penalty provided reasonable safeguards exist against killing an innocent person. It's partly for this reason that prisoners sentenced to death in the US stay on death row on average for a decade – although you can never be 100% certain (not much in life is), that seems like more than a reasonable length of time to establish guilt or innocence.
As Guy has already pointed out - the death penalty hasn't been much of a deterrent in the United State of Cluster-f*ckery. As I've pointed out criminals don't start out thinking they'll get caught, or they wouldn't do what they do in the first place.
I agree with this – it’s not a deterrant because criminals either don’t think they’ll get caught or at the time of the crime they just don’t think of the consequences. Before applying any penalty it should be established which of these is the case – stupid people can be rehabilitated.
We are all destined to die. If a murder was pre-meditated why not just bring forward the inevitable to a more convenient time for the rest of us? It’s costly to house and feed a person for 40 or 50 years. But if you are going to keep them locked up for decades then at least put them to work – a person is also a valuable resource.
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As good a deterant as the death penalty "may" be as indicated by Elvi's research into studies done, I suspect that real hard labour along with reduced human rights in terms of what the prisoners can be forced to do would be a more effective deterant. Add in the fact that it provides more than adequate time to prove inocence if required and the fact that the prisoners can be used to better others lifes through the work these people are forced to do and the potential to pay for their own upkeep and its a powerfull case. Of course this would never happen due to logistics, investment, human rights protests, the potential for corruption and not to mention having a government strong enough to bring such a penalty to life. Just like they will never bring the death penalty back in purely on the grounds that the govenrment dont have the balls to do it. Either way, I would never vote for either option but I would definately vote in favour of making the prison system far more harsh than it already is, as others have said, it just is not a deterant any more (I know a couple of people who have been to jail and while they certainly didnt enjoy it, they were very surprised just how easy it was in reality and just how good a place for criminal networking it really is).