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Model specific boards => Golf mk2 => Topic started by: jmsheahan on 04 August 2011, 11:41
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Morning all,
After some tech advice regarding a problem with oil loss. I've been reading up on a few issues and was after some clarification a few things.
A little background - I've recently finished my 2E 2.0 conversion on my mk2 digi 8v (2E block with a PB head). The block had done a reported 100k, although I have no proof of this, and turned over lovely and smooth with minimal bore wear. The head was on 140k and was fully refurbed with new valve guides and stem seals.
Engine pulls and drives very well however I'm burning a fair amount of oil in not a great deal of miles - most noticeable symptom is a plume of blue/grey smoke between gear change at high revs (over 5k). This is the only time I can see it smoking. Idle smells a bit fumey but no plume on start up etc. I ran a compression test to see what was going on and these were the figures after 3-4 strokes (seem ok to me?):
Engine cold:
Cylinder 1: 190 psi / 13.1 bar
Cylinder 2: 190 psi / 13.1 bar
Cylinder 3: 200 psi / 14 bar
Cylinder 4: 200 psi / 14 bar
Engine up to temp:
Cylinder 1: 190 psi / 13.1 bar
Cylinder 2: 190 psi / 13.1 bar
Cylinder 3: 195 psi / 13.5 bar
Cylinder 4: 200 psi / 14 bar
Barely any difference and seems healthy? Spark plugs look in reasonable health after 800-1000 miles. Plugs were bone dry and not oily, just a little black where it was running a little rich for a few miles before the timing was setup properly:
Cylinder 1:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y235/jmsheahan_44/IMG_5053.jpg)
Cylinder 2:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y235/jmsheahan_44/IMG_5055.jpg)
Cylinder 3:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y235/jmsheahan_44/IMG_5056.jpg)
Cylinder 4:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y235/jmsheahan_44/IMG_5057.jpg)
And this is the breather setup
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y235/jmsheahan_44/IMG_5050.jpg)
If the rings were shot surely I'd be getting worse compression figures? Worn rings would smoke all of the time? It's been suggested that perhaps a stem seal has been fitted incorrectly. I guess what I'm trying to work out is whether it's a cylinder head issue or the block?
Any help appreciated, cheers!
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Compression on those is fine, I would be looking at the head to blame.
Nick
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As Nick said compression readings look spot on, so head problem or stem seal.
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stem seal or stem seal + valve guide
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Cheers chaps. Slightly happier as I'd rather that than the rings going. Gah, bloody cars :rolleyes:
I'm surprised I haven't got any smoke on start up.
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Is there any way to test whether it's the seals or guides? If it's just seals I can do it with the head still on.
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How many miles has it done, might be worth looking at getting the guides replaced if has done a lot of miles.
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The head has done 140k odd but has just had a complete overhaul, new guides, seals etc, full works. I'm wondering if perhaps a seal isn't quite situated properly.
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The head has done 140k odd but has just had a complete overhaul, new guides, seals etc. I'm wondering if perhaps a seal isn't quite situated properly.
Does seem like it yes :smiley:
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I've got pretty much the same problem but on a lower mileage engine, started off as stem seals (back off the throttle at high revs then back on = big puff of smoke). Sold the car years ago, now bought it back and it's using oil like its going out of fashion. Comp test is fine, breathers all cleaned out, incl the metal gauze thingy. Smokes under hard acceleration. Tbh I'm not that fussed as I've just bought a 20vt to put in but it would be nice to get to the bottom of it! Good luck
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I've got pretty much the same problem but on a lower mileage engine, started off as stem seals (back off the throttle at high revs then back on = big puff of smoke). Sold the car years ago, now bought it back and it's using oil like its going out of fashion. Comp test is fine, breathers all cleaned out, incl the metal gauze thingy. Smokes under hard acceleration. Tbh I'm not that fussed as I've just bought a 20vt to put in but it would be nice to get to the bottom of it! Good luck
:grin: Wish I could just bosh a 20vt in too.
I guess I'm not going to know until I replace the stem seals. Only annoyance is I'll have to get a garage to do it (no access to compressed air) as I don't want to take the head off again.
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There's a trick whereby you feed rope in via the spark plug holes to avoid taking the head off. Never done it myself but its documented on here somewhere.
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There's a trick whereby you feed rope in via the spark plug holes to avoid taking the head off. Never done it myself but its documented on here somewhere.
Compressed air is easier / safer
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Cheers chaps. Yeah I have read about the rope trick but don't fancy it too much. Thanks though. Bit of a gamble changing the seals but I don't really know what else to do.
Can anyone recommend a good garage who knows mk2's in the Southwest? (with the finest compressed air :laugh:)
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Little bit of an update and I have to say I'm proper baffled by it now :undecided:
Have redone the breather system as per the Mk3 setup (cheers RJ) just to rule that out as the current setup was a bit bodged. Looks much more tidy I have to say.
Went for a good blast around the countryside with a mate to check the smoking. I can confirm it is literally on gear changes at high revs, not all of the time having seen it from following behind. It doesn't smoke constantly on power, just a fairly large plume at higher rev gear changes when coming back onto the power which lingers for a few seconds and clears. Idle seems clean. It's definitely not down on power.
To be honest I'm leaning more towards it being a piston ring issue however I'm still hung up on this good compression result I haven't been able to see the head builder however after a discussion with him, he recalled everything going back together tightly during the rebuild and as it should.
I'm pretty stumped to be honest and I appreciate the help I've had. Not really sure on next steps. What do people think - is it worth stripping the whole thing down again and sourcing another block?
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those symptoms are classic valve stem seal.
if it was rings it'd be smokeing all the time and it'd be blowing oil up the breather ect and compression would be much lower
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The amount it's using though seems a little excessive for stem seals and it's clean at idle. None of the classic puff on start up etc.
Back off the throttle at high revs then back on causes the big puff of smoke (so on power which I was under the impression meant rings?). It smells oily if following behind but would it definitely be smoking all of the time if rings then?
Reading about leakdown tests to try and pinpoint the problem but the kits are very expensive - this something any garage can carry out?
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leackdown test kit is cheep i made mine :smiley:
take bit of steel tube use die to put relivant thread on the end of it to suit sparkplug, attach to steel tube some rubber tube, to ths rubber tube add an airline fitting,
fir to engine add 100 ish psi of compressed air and listen.
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if the oil controll rings had gone it would smoke LOTS more it would smoke on idel and if you gave it some pedal you wouldn't see out the back window
if the compression rings had gone there would be less compression
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Cheers :smiley:
I can see the smoke out the rear window when it plumes but that's the only time. Sounds easy enough to mock up - I don't have access to an air compressor though. Is is something any garage can do or is it something that's kind of died out with modern motors?
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lol modern motors are the reason half thins kit gets made.
on a mk2 i would lift the head without thinking about as it's easy and usally easy to work out whats gone wrong.
one the new stuff there is a hell of a lot more work in lifting a head and belive it or not i was allways looking at more modern motors checking valves ect with compressed air to try and work out what the hell has happend without lifting the head.
last weekend a ford be thankfull you don't have stupid littel plastic flaps like these in your inlet manifold
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v643/dannyp1595/16v%20heads/DSCF1787.jpg)
because on the other side the shaft holding them in snapped
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v643/dannyp1595/16v%20heads/DSCF1789.jpg)
and you start finding bits like this in the manifold never found the 4th flap but there was a bent valve wonder where that went
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v643/dannyp1595/16v%20heads/DSCF1790.jpg)
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Off topic
My Mondeo was the same, all I did was leave them out and fill the holes.
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lol modern motors are the reason half thins kit gets made.
on a mk2 i would lift the head without thinking about as it's easy and usally easy to work out whats gone wrong.
Thing is I've just replaced the headgasket, various seals/gaskets etc with genuine ones which cost a small fortune. I really don't want to have to take the head off if I can avoid it. Just popped round the local garage - sound guy, but he reckoned it wasn't worth doing the leak down test as it wouldn't give any indication as to the oil control ring condition.
Most of the symptoms point to a block problem (i.e smoke on power), but I have good compression and it doesn't smoke constantly (I don't know what blown piston rings smoke like, never had it). This points to the head but it seems clean on idle and startup which makes me doubt the seals :undecided:
The way I see it is I've got two options:
1 - replace the stem seals which will cost around £200 as I can't do it myself.
2 - Source a new bottom end and strip the whole thing down again.
Both are gambles and I have very very little money to play with which is why I wish for more certainty as to the route of the problem. F**king car. Seriously on the verge of scrapping it. In the last year it's had 2 rebuild heads, this 2.0 block and I shudder at how much cash thrown at it. And it's still not right :angry:
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Mine does exactly this and has so for 2 years and over 10.000 miles of spirited driving everyday of the week.
wouldnt of lasted if it was a ring, still pulls well.
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upto you but i do have a 2E head you can have! no leaks or anything. came off of my mk3 gti!
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Mine does exactly this and has so for 2 years and over 10.000 miles of spirited driving everyday of the week.
wouldnt of lasted if it was a ring, still pulls well.
How much oil does it get through?
upto you but i do have a 2E head you can have! no leaks or anything. came off of my mk3 gti!
Cheers but I have no use for a mk3 head as I want to use my PB one.
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Maybe of no help to you because mine is a KR but mine used to puff a little blue on gear changes when giving it some boot. sorted it by cleaning out a mucky breather system. is this the problem with yours, burning the oil mist from the crank case breather? :undecided:
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Maybe of no help to you because mine is a KR but mine used to puff a little blue on gear changes when giving it some boot. sorted it by cleaning out a mucky breather system. is this the problem with yours, burning the oil mist from the crank case breather? :undecided:
Thanks for the suggestion but I've cleaned all of the pipes out so they should be ok. Stumped to be honest.
I did have a quick look in the airbox and inlet earlier - quite a bit of oil. Assuming this isn't this normal:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y235/jmsheahan_44/IMG_5565.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y235/jmsheahan_44/IMG_5564.jpg)
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Mine does exactly this and has so for 2 years and over 10.000 miles of spirited driving everyday of the week.
wouldnt of lasted if it was a ring, still pulls well.
How much oil does it get through?
Lots.
Dont know exactly because i dont check it as often as i should. I have an abf for it to go in soon.
Its a bit like owning a 2 stroke motorbike, every other fill up i put oil in. Usually when the tappets start rattling on start up and take a while to shut up. Not the best way to treat it i know but its going to be binned.
It burns more in traffic when its hot and sometimes hesitates till i boot it and clear it.
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Maybe of no help to you because mine is a KR but mine used to puff a little blue on gear changes when giving it some boot. sorted it by cleaning out a mucky breather system. is this the problem with yours, burning the oil mist from the crank case breather? :undecided:
Thanks for the suggestion but I've cleaned all of the pipes out so they should be ok. Stumped to be honest.
I did have a quick look in the airbox and inlet earlier - quite a bit of oil. Assuming this isn't this normal:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y235/jmsheahan_44/IMG_5565.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y235/jmsheahan_44/IMG_5564.jpg)
That looks too much to me, there must be a breather pipe going to the air filter box. redirect it to a catch can, (beer can) clean the intake pipes out then give the golf a run see if the blue smoke has gone :wink:
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Thanks. I cleaned it all out so will keep an eye on it however...
A new development from last night...
Was driving home reasonably enthusiastically but nothing particularly heavy. Came down to a junction and the low oil pressure light started flashing around idle which went out again as soon as I put a little throttle down. Came off of the roundabout and switched off immediately. Low oil pressure also backed up by the VDO registering low.
Let it cool down, checked the levels and still half way up the dipstick (was at just below max around 50 miles back). Started it back up, no light and all was well. Nursed it the half mile home.
Started it up today and no light, compression still great, however it's now knocking above 2000 rpm. Sounds like it's coming from the head but I could be wrong.
Put bluntly it's f*cked :lipsrsealed:. Can any light be shed from this? I could try and record the knocking.
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Knocking could be a bottom end issue, main or big end bearing in trouble
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Yeah thought as much.
Is there anything in the head that could cause the knock though out of interest? It does sound top end rather than bottom end.
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Low oil pressure can cause the tappets to be noisy.. Check oil pressures, hot and cold, at idle, and at rpm, and on the head as well as oil filter housing. If they're low, drop sump and clean pick up pipe, or replace pump. Simples.
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dosent look good for that engine
looseing useing that much oil is not a good, also kicking in the low pressure warning at idel when hot means its not holding pressure well. often means engine is close to end of days.
cleaning pickup can sort it sometimes , but usally if if blocked woh gunk it's sing that the engines had a hard life and when striped thee often worn, same goes for oil pumps they are usally good for the service life of the engine so if it's work the shells are usally about done anyway
witht he problems you allready have with it IMO it's time for a full rebuild or epplace
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Cheers for the help.
I wish it would die properly to be fair - it's never been conclusive i.e compression is still good etc. The knock does sound like it's from the head but I guess I best start sourcing another bottom end (any one got a good 2.0 lump) and hope the head isn't toast. This second engine has lasted about 2000 miles :rolleyes:
Might be time to call it a day to be honest, I'm completely sick of this car and throwing money at it.
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I'd be tempted to pick up a known good PB lump for peanuts, chuck it in and then once that's done strip down your old lump and have a good look. You should be able to pick up a good PB for less than £200 as people throw them out when putting in ABF's.
Nick
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You should be able to pick up a good PB for less than £200 as people throw them out when putting in ABF's.
A good PB? The youngest ones are 20 years old now!
I'd recommend manning up and just inserting the correct engine, as listed above. :grin:
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There are plenty of good PB's about. No point adding hassle of an ABF if he's fed up with it. A straight swap can be done in a day and he has a working standard car.
Nick
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I still have the original pb lump which was ok however if it's being stripped down yet again I'll try and find a good, documented AGG. If I could find a 2.0 already with a pb head that would save some time. ABF would be nice but the wiring puts me off.
Think I'm just going to leave it in the garage out of sight for a few weeks/months until I decide what to do. Fix it or break it and scrap the remains.
Thanks for the suggestions. I'll get a vid of the noise/knock later in the week.
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Think I'm just going to leave it in the garage out of sight for a few weeks/months until I decide what to do. Fix it or break it and scrap the remains.
If you're taking a break from it anyway then find someone who can do the wiring for you and do the swap over the winter. You will NOT regret it!
There are plenty of good PB's about.
Links or STFU :tongue: :grin:
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Think I'm just going to leave it in the garage out of sight for a few weeks/months until I decide what to do. Fix it or break it and scrap the remains.
Thanks for the suggestions. I'll get a vid of the noise/knock later in the week.
I would not scrap it, look at fixing it. :smiley:
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If you scrap it, you will regret it for the rest of your life. put her away over winter months and look out for a cheap engine.
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You offering on the wiring front DH? :grin:
Cheers for the replies. We'll see, I probably won't get rid of it but I need a break from it for a while I think and decide a route forward.
Here's a vid of the knocking noise if anyone's interested and fancies having a go at 'guess what's fubbard' :laugh:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y235/jmsheahan_44/th_DSCN0832.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y235/jmsheahan_44/?action=view¤t=DSCN0832.mp4)