GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk2 => Topic started by: frenchboy on 23 July 2011, 12:09
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Quick question which will hopefully help me make my mind up on what to do.
Bike carbs or twin 40 or 45s on a KR 16v?
Which is easiest to do?
Which is better on fuel?
Which is better for a daily run around?
I have had twin 40s before so know them quite abit and use to having to keep adjusting them that don't bother me but never had any experience with bike carbs so be nice to hear peoples thoughts.
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Stick with injection if your looking for good mpg.
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MPG don't really bother me to be honest plus its alittle bit cheaper over here in France :grin:More fussed about the cost of installing them.
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MPG don't really bother me to be honest plus its alittle bit cheaper over here in France :grin:More fussed about the cost of installing them.
Bike carbs can be a better bet than webbers
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I'm looking at doing r1 carbs on my ABF the hardest bit is getting a manifold made up. They can be controlled by a oem throttle cable from what I've read.. Expect bad mpg and tweaking every so often.. Sounds amazing though :smiley:
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I'm looking at doing r1 carbs on my ABF the hardest bit is getting a manifold made up. They can be controlled by a oem throttle cable from what I've read.. Expect bad mpg and tweaking every so often.. Sounds amazing though :smiley:
bogg brothers will make up the manifold and rejet your carbs to suit, just send them the carbs, they will also add a servo take off in no4 runner, they cost around 350 iirc
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I'm looking at doing r1 carbs on my ABF the hardest bit is getting a manifold made up. They can be controlled by a oem throttle cable from what I've read.. Expect bad mpg and tweaking every so often.. Sounds amazing though :smiley:
bogg brothers will make up the manifold and rejet your carbs to suit, just send them the carbs, they will also add a servo take off in no4 runner, they cost around 350 iirc
Sorry what does £350 include ??
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I personally will make the manifold my self that is not a problem at all.
my main issue is that over here in france bike carbs are alot cheaper than webbers and the fact I have had nothing to do with bike carbs either,where as I have owned afew cars with webbers on.
If I had webbers would 40 or 45s be better?
Whats the best and easiest bike carbs to use?
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350 is for the manifold [ i know its steep ]
from what ive read on club gti 45s are better for valvers 40s are considered too small, with bike carbs the suzuki gsxr750 or early gsxr1000 carbs are good the earlier carbs can be unbolted from each other and spaced out to match the manifold. 42mm bike carbs are supposed to be the minimum size to use have a read of the carb and throttle body section on cgti, it gives lots of info on the pros and cons of most set ups
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if you want a manifold makeing up im sure we chould arrange something if you can draw it.
have quite a range of welding weapons including an AC tig so can do ali
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Quite why you'd use any carb set up on a GTI 8 or 16V is a mystery to me.
Less economy, less performance and far more expense. If you want a nice noise nail a VR6 in there. If you want more performance get some throttlebodies on it.
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Taken what you've said on board found this company that make throttle body kits
http://www.badger5.co.uk/
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Less economy, less performance and far more expense. If you want a nice noise nail a VR6 in there.
Not here for an arguement but.....
I dont quite see the increase in expense here unless you are considering their use over a significant time frame. Face it, as nasty as carbs are when compared to a throttle body and stand alone ECU package thats set up properly, they are a very cheap option if all you want is some bragging rights, a bit of noise and a wee bit of extra oomph out of the engine (when set up properly, something I fail to see Bogg brothers doing just by banging in a set of rough guess jets btw). Its definately not what I would do and I do see some of your point (certainly regarding fuel economy and engine output/drivability potential) but a full on throttle body setup can be VERY expensive if you are not in a position to do the vast majority of the work yourself. Even using megasquirt and bike bodies your looking at a significant investment which a lot of people just are not capable of justifying or even implementing.
Lets do a quick tot up of some figures plucked out of the air shall we? £200-400 for a megasquirt ECU depending on who builds it or if its on ebay built, £50-200 for ignition parts and new leads depending on what route you take with the ignition (stock is useless and defeating the object), £50-150 for the TB's, £100-200 for the new loom including connectors and add in a fair bit more for crimping tools, vastly more if someone else does it, £50 for the inlet assuming you do it yourself, £200-350 for the inlet if bought out, several hundred for mapping if you want it bang on and your talking serious money to most people with what is a budget setup that would be roughly acheivable by most mechanically minded people. Compare that to £350 for a bought inlet and maybe upto £100 for the carbs and theres not only a big difference in cost but also in time and skills required. BTW, Im aware you can do these things a lot cheaper than the rough prices I have popped in here but not everyone is capable of doing this sort of thing, let alone have the confidence to start such a project with their road cars.
Perhaps its worth you remembering this as it seems at odds with your constant banging on about using OEM brake setups to keep costs down (again, something I see your point with but is sometimes delivered in such a way as to make people ignore your vision on the basis you come across as a prick).......
Did you really suggest someone should put a VR engine in a car and not put a single snide comment in there :shocked:?????
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Ive just looked at throttle bodies and for a kit your looking at £1500/£2200 for a decent kit which includes everything for about 25bhp increase.. you could easily turbo the car on standalone for that lol..
r1 carbs = £75
manifold = 200-350
carbs are definately cheaper lol whats the difference on bhp between the 2 ??
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carbs are definately cheaper lol whats the difference on bhp between the 2 ??
Its not just the output, its the way that output is delivered :wink:.
If all your worried about is figures then either method could probably acheive the same level of outright power (assuming you can play with the timing to suit the carbs properly) but, as good as bike carbs are for drivability when set up well (the reason bikes took so long to swap to injection in the first place on sporty models appears to be low range throttle pickup sensitivity), you will really struggle to get a carb setup to have as broad and level a torque curve, have the potential to improve fuel economy, improve transient and steady state throttle response, meet emissions standards, etc, etc. If your after the best setup, throttle bodies and standalone is definately the way to go, if your happy to make a lot of compromises then carbs and programmable ignition is fine and if your willing to compromise further, carbs with no ignition mods is also doable and manageable on the road but the final two options are just not going to get the same results as a decent throttle body setup. The only problem is cost as it gets expensive to the point that you may wonder why you didnt just whack a 20vt in there if its figures you are after.
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See thats the thing you really have to weigh up cost.. TB's doing a good setup is a lot of money.. 20vt's are going for very cheap sub £500 for a full engine and box etc without galactic mileage.. im really considering TB's but am really going to have to weigh up other possibilities..
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Nice to see a good debate going on :grin:
Quite why you'd use any carb set up on a GTI 8 or 16V is a mystery to me.
Less economy, less performance and far more expense. If you want a nice noise nail a VR6 in there. If you want more performance get some throttlebodies on it.
For starters you mustn't of owned a car with twin 45s on it before :smug:
If I wanted to put a VR6 engine in then I would of just gone and bought a VR6 in the first place :laugh:
I personally don't see how you reckon that carbs are less performance and the cars I have had with twin 40s on before were very useable and didn't do that bad on fuel and at the mo my 16v is sh!te on fuel anyway so anything would be a vast improvement :laugh:
French small roads are great fun and empty so just looking for something that puts a smile on my face put personally I would prefer the sound from a very well set up set of twin 45s :evil:
Well I think twin 45s will be the way I am going to go matched with some head work and a set of cams,and I will also be fitting some bigger brakes as I agree with DOA.
Another question now I saw a camshaft maker saying that you only change 1 cam I think it was Catcams that say it so is this true?
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I've been in plenty of grunty carb-fed cars. They're not all that.
Did you really suggest someone should put a VR engine in a car and not put a single snide comment in there
In preference to carbs, yes. :grin: :grin:
Fact of the matter is that over any of the suggestions so far I would (:grin:).... no prizes for guessing..... do none of them and put an ABF on OEM management in it! Thing is you'd get 165-175bhp with a tubular manifold on the back of it (and I hate to say it, but my experience says it's true) and an inlet kit. This would definitely get a good noise, excellent reliability and bloody good economy over the solutions suggested on here so far.
Perhaps its worth you remembering this as it seems at odds with your constant banging on about using OEM brake setups to keep costs down
The guy's looking at doing a couple of options that involve quite a lot of expense and are a 'project'. Fitting up an ABF on OEM management isn't *that* much of a project, although it will probably get the next best result after ITBs for performance, for the lowest budget out of all of the options.
20vt's are going for very cheap sub £500 for a full engine and box etc without galactic mileage.. im really considering TB's but am really going to have to weigh up other possibilities..
Depends what the car's for. For track days and motorsport I'd definitely go for the ITB set up over the turbo set up, because I favour having a high-revving NA motor over all the torque of the turbo set up.
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On the throttle body kit badger5 say 200bhp on the abf is possible is this true and what other supporting mods would be needed ?? I would prefer a good revvy engine for if I go on the track but decent mpg for if im going to a show and such..
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200 bhp from an ITB'ed abf - yup lots of people have done it.
£100 of machene work to tri cut the valve seats and valves and 2 evenings work with a £30 mini die grinder and abour £30 worth of bits.
i would go as far as saying it'd be possible on std cams with good headwork if i chould be arsed to prove it, its deantly possible with modifyed std cams and diy headwok
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Meh, I did write something but cant be arsed now, its obviously late and people are typing in their sleep :grin: :rolleyes:.