GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk2 => Topic started by: scaffold on 24 May 2011, 12:18
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Hello all,
Relatively new to here but not to older cars, and I've a question that I'm sure one of you can answer for me.
Sat around in the other "office" last month me and my mate decided that rather than wait for the right gtis to turn up we'd both buy 1600s and, as a Top Gear-esque challenge, do what we could to our cars for 600 sheets and fight it out at the next track day. Now, further down the line an engine swap may be on the cards, but for a couple of hundred notes each we've both managed to pick up a 1600 locally.
So the crux of it is, I've picked up a weber converted J plate that leaves me a little under 400 to spend on making my 1600 faster round a track than his, however, I also need to maintain some semblance of everyday practicality as it's to be my car whilst my partner uses my other car as her's is in the garage. So I'm currently stood at mk3 gti top mounts and coilovers [I had these left over from a previous golf project], uprated panel filter and holes in the drivers side of the airbox and thinking of a fast road cam. People have suggested an 8v gti cam but, rather than use the standard item, could I alternatively use a Kent 270 GS2H [or similar uprated 8v gti item] without the need to be cutting/changing or modifiying anything else?
I've also got my tame pipe bender on the job of a decat pipe but what's the deal with using the 8v gti downpipe? I'm assuming that I'd need to use an 8v gti manifold too? He's handy with a welder so I don't suppose anyone in Somerset has one that I could borrow to measure up/anyone got a CAD file that I could use to make one up from?
Obviously all help in this matter will be rewarded when I follow up with the tale of how I thrashed him got on but really any help would be appreciated.
cheers
morgs
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Sounds like good fun. I approve :cool:
Find a GTI head, (PB code motor) preferably with manifold and downpipe, use this with the Weber and you should be well up on power (or at least close to original!). This head has bigger valves and you can blank off the injector ports with pennies.
Cut down the inlet manifold heater to about 1cm in height. to improve airflow.
Since you've put the coilovers on (*spits*) have you had the alignment sorted? I'd say stick -1 degrees of camber on the front and fit a set of Toyo T1-Rs on the front at least. You'll get better turn in, be able to carry more speed through the corners and the tyres shouldn't overheat too badly on track. If you are genuinely looking to optimise the handling keep those control arms level at rest, which should see the most grip and reliable handling.
The biggest gain you'll get on your budget is stripping the interior out - lighten and simplfy to make faster!
Keep us posted with progress. When and where's the track day?
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As mr H said, with the early golfs its all about handling. The ability to late brake and Fast through the bends and you will be laughing.
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The next track day should be Castle Coombe in a little over a month :laugh: still waiting on the chap in the lab coat to come in left of screen and hand over the envelope with more details!
Progress will be posted, and as more questions arise I expect the thread may well grow :rolleyes:
I'm just reading through Khares [help me reach 100] thread which seems to have some good advice in it. I am still wondering whether or not I can go with the gti head but a slightly lairier cam [Kent 270]though.
The inlet manifold heater is the "hedgehog" right? and you're saying take it down to 1cm rather than by the same amount? Just want to check before butchering things!
Any mileage in an uprated dizzy?
Interior already set aside for the track day, just a single bucket for the day itself :grin: I'll have the suspension set up for the track in time for the event itself as we've previously done the same sort of competition with rwd japanese two seaters, white vans and sub 1litre engined cars...we find it a good way to give projects and modifying some direction and purpose :laugh:
Cheers for the advice.
morgs
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From what I have read online you will be better off uprating the plugs rather than the dizzy itself. Having said that if you are gonna run a 'lairy' cam it will be worth adjusting the timing to get the most from it, this should be two screws in the dizzy to either advance or retard.
So, PB head, 270cam, uprated plugs (possibly better battery), coilovers, good rubber and I would look into upgrading brakes to 16v too along with braided hoses. Could look into stiffening her up with strut braces front and rear.
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Fair play, so a pb head with the injectors blocked off and uprated plugs should do the trick? Excellent work. I shall continue with sourcing of some parts!
Stiffening is also being looked into with a chopped down and re worked pair of strut braces soon to be fitted.
Excited? You betcha. Hoping that this is going to fly!
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I have some 8v parts you can have cheap.. Eg head manifold downpipe..
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I wish I had the money and another mate who would do this. Could be a laugh. I look forward to updates. :D
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From what I have read online you will be better off uprating the plugs rather than the dizzy itself. Having said that if you are gonna run a 'lairy' cam it will be worth adjusting the timing to get the most from it, this should be two screws in the dizzy to either advance or retard.
So, PB head, 270cam, uprated plugs (possibly better battery), coilovers, good rubber and I would look into upgrading brakes to 16v too along with braided hoses. Could look into stiffening her up with strut braces front and rear.
K-jet distributor has a different advance curve (more suited to gti cam funnily enough) to the carb dizzy, so that is why it is recommended.....
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Go hunt out a cheap set of 280mm front brakes on a SEAT or Passat and a 22mm master cylinder, too - late braking FTW.*
*You will need 15" rims to do this, but there are far more, cheaper 15" tyres out there than 14" ones anyway.
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Do all 15s clear the calipers Mr H?
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If it's a complete 280mm set up instead of some pieced-together cobbled up set up then all OEM 15" rims should clear the calipers.
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Ignore the comment about fitting "uprated" spark plugs, its a complete waste of time and budget for what you are doing and a new set of single prong plugs will do just fine. Remove the air filter altogether and put really thin oil in if your changing it (I would also say run it low on oil but you will have to fit a windage tray and baffles into the sump if your tracking the car to stop excessive surge). Also, if there are any, re-route any breathers that feed into the inlet to a breather bottle (can of red bull etc). If you fit different tyres, try and find ones that will be of a smaller diameter when fitted as this will aid your acceleration. A GTi rear beam might be of some help too as that comes fitted with an ARB though dont bother with converting to rear discs as they will be heavier. Best bet is still stripping EVERYTHING off the car though.
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Ignore the comment about fitting "uprated" spark plugs, its a complete waste of time and budget for what you are doing and a new set of single prong plugs will do just fine. Remove the air filter altogether and put really thin oil in if your changing it (I would also say run it low on oil but you will have to fit a windage tray and baffles into the sump if your tracking the car to stop excessive surge). Also, if there are any, re-route any breathers that feed into the inlet to a breather bottle (can of red bull etc). If you fit different tyres, try and find ones that will be of a smaller diameter when fitted as this will aid your acceleration. A GTi rear beam might be of some help too as that comes fitted with an ARB though dont bother with converting to rear discs as they will be heavier. Best bet is still stripping EVERYTHING off the car though.
I also hate using the term 'uprated' but I believe a higher quality plug will produce a stronger spark. I expect he is changing the plugs anyhow so what does it matter spending a couple of extra quid on a better quality plug?
As for the tray you can get them on ebay for £20 and as you are wanting a bit more power and an engine to race its worth wipping off the sump anyway to give it and your oil gauze a clean/inspection and weld in some ribs if you feel it needs them, not hard at all.
You are right about keeping the rear as drums. If you install g60's on the front with good rubber to match they want to do this anyhow, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2D6G1zkceA never mind with all the seats etc ripped out of the rear.
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I also hate using the term 'uprated' but I believe a higher quality plug will produce a stronger spark. I expect he is changing the plugs anyhow so what does it matter spending a couple of extra quid on a better quality plug?
It might produce a stronger spark which "might" help if your running a very powerfull/forced induction engine but even dyno tests on them cant conclusively prove any gains through the use of different plugs due to the miriad variations that occur during testing and within an engine. A £600 budget is not much and you can get the same performance from a bog standard NGK plug that costs less than half that of a "upgraded" plug :wink:.
You are right about keeping the rear as drums. If you install g60's on the front with good rubber to match they want to do this anyhow, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2D6G1zkceA never mind with all the seats etc ripped out of the rear.
Hence why I wrote it lol :rolleyes:. As for doing endo's, no chance, the grip wouldnt be there even if he ran on super tacky hillclimb slicks though it would be funny to watch. However, on that subject, you can pick used slicks up after tarmac rallies for pennies if you ask around but then you definately will have to do something to stop oil surge and will want to uprate all of the bushes on the car and the springs and dampers to cope with the extra grip which would probably be a bit of a budget killer.
BTW, if your fitting a GTi head, check the compression ratio that you will get once its fitted (lots of guides online, google is your friend) and skim the head to get up to around 10.5 to 11:1 (circa £20 if you shop around). Just watch out for pinking and detonation when you run it and set the timing to avoid this if needed. Also worth checking the valve stem seals are sound before buying the head.
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I thought you needed to remove the valves if you are skimming the head anyhow? You get the seals with a headgasket set nehoo which you would need to put the new head on.
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this is such an awesome idea, wish i had a mate with some spare cash!
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don't do anything to the bottom end. It's finely balanced and unless you spend large sums you'll balls it up.
Get the head skimmed to up the compression ratio to about 11/11.5:1. If you can afford it or be arsed, get the ports of the head sand blasted. Make the engine breathe easier with a good air filter and a good exhaust, including manifold. a cam will help but beware it pushes everything up the rev range, which isn't a bad thing if you can afford the fuel
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you cant get the compression ratio that high on a driver by skimming the head.
your starting off at 9:1 iirc youd have to take about 3mm off
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Hi all,
Feel bad that I haven't contributed to this as much as the rest of you so I guess it's update time!
I'm glad that the topic has raised some opinion, but can't take full responsibility for what people seem to agree with as being a good idea. At least 50% of the applause has to go to my mate skinny as I believe it was him that first came up with it as I was up getting in the beers and a packet of nuts pulling an all nighter at work after we'd been discussing that Top Gear challenges had gone all staged and what you could actually do with a relatively low budget. So, we settled on a figure that wouldn't break the bank [just a couple of hundred stashed to one side from each wage slip] and then try to do something with it twice a year. Neither of us earn mega bucks, but we know one end of a spanner from the other and thought we'd put a bit of purpose into the usual ebay bought treasure that just gathers dust in the back of the garage. We've also been fortunate enough to move the projects on and get a bit of cash back [in fact the vans 'fuel economy' challenge both saw us net the total budget for the next challenge as well as cover the cost of the vans!] This ones different though, as it's track orientated and I want to keep the car as an ongoing project afterwards :smiley:
So...fanfare please...I've found myself a skimmed gti head with injectors blanked off and seals re seated. Headgasket and valve cover gaskets and bolts included to fit it. There's a gti cam in there too :laugh:
I think that this will be finding it's way onto the car this weekend all being well, with photos and details on how it's coming together too. I'll have to get a project thread started once I break out the spanners.
As for other modifications, lightness is key. Remember that I need to use the car during the week so I can't get rid of everything, but I'm going to remove as much as possible [sound deadening and carpet being the first to go - bah, I'll carry some earplugs for longer journeys]. On the day itself, all I'll need to do then is unbolt the front two seats and stick my bucket seat in. Happy days!
Suspension wise, the coilovers aren't staying [a fact that I'm sure will please most] and will be replaced with a spring and shock setup [always interested in advice/comments on a setup by people running different systems]. I'm on the look out for a 280mm brake set up BUT although I'm about as far from 'scene' as you can get [I don't cover my windscreen in stickers, hang a cuddly toy off my tow eye or take photos of my car and trainer collection] I have always pictured running this car on 14s. I've a wheel in mind that I need to speak to ratta about getting some polishing pads for that I haven't seen on any other golfs so I'm hoping I may be doing something different. I'll see if the 280 set up comes up cheap enough [does it bolt straight on?] and see if that sways me [at least for the duration of race day!]
Sticky rubber is being looked into, as are front and rear stiffening. I've a momo wheel to go on which although isn't really a performance modification should help me when it comes to throwing the car through the curvy stuff.
One question I do have though is do I need to have the 32/34 carb re jetted to suit the gti head? If so, any reputable companies that people can recommend?
Photos and more info to follow :smiley:
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I'll see if the 280 set up comes up cheap enough [does it bolt straight on?] and see if that sways me [at least for the duration of race day!]
Yes, a 4X100 280mm brake set up will bolt right up, provided you have the hubs and the flexible hoses. You will need (as outlined) the mastercylinder off that car too.
One question I do have though is do I need to have the 32/34 carb re jetted to suit the gti head? If so, any reputable companies that people can recommend?
Good luck with that in your budget. If it's jetted right at the moment then it will probably be OK with the GTI head.
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I didn't mean messing around with venturis as such, more I was trying to find out what calibrations of air/fuel jets etc people are using as I can try and get the closest to ideal set up in one go rather than trial and error ordering every diameter under the sun!
If I were to go bigger at some point [I'm talking 2.0l bottom end] are we still saying if it's jetted to the gti head we're ok or is that the point I'm going to need to start looking at bigger jets? Thing is, we haven't even competed yet and Skinny is already talking about using the winning vehicle as the start of a fun track day tool that we can work with and learn on as we go. We've done a mk4 escort before, but him loosing his job meant that had to be sold for funds, but the thought of a 2.0l bottom end with a gti head may seem like a daft alternative to ripping it all out and starting over with something bigger, but to us represents good value for money [in terms of how much we can learn doing it, working with it and reliably using it both on road and trackdays]. Is there any free software out there where you can input spec and what you hope to achieve and BANG!! Robert's your mothers brother...we have the calibration of jets required!
Apologies for bringing something up that has probably been discussed over many a thread, but I'm more an injection kind of guy, and when I have gone bigger [2.0l 16v in my Vauxhall Chevette] I just followed advice on kit car builds as to injector spec.
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sorry to hijack but mr hell, is it a 16v passat for the brakes and hubs only i ve found a cl with pretty large brakes at the scrappy.
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Hey dude, have a look at these links (if it will let you) and have a look around the sites to see if you can find anything else
http://bombercountydubs.makeforum.co.uk/t279-useful-online-car-calculators
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sorry to hijack but mr hell, is it a 16v passat for the brakes and hubs only i ve found a cl with pretty large brakes at the scrappy.
Can't remember precisely, but even the 'cooking' 2.0 8V Passats may well have 256mm brakes, which have the benefit of having a separate caliper carrier to the hub and will control heat dissipation much better.
One of the things about stopping a big, lardy Chuff-wagon is that it generates far more heat than a little Golf. :grin:
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If I were to go bigger at some point [I'm talking 2.0l bottom end] are we still saying if it's jetted to the gti head we're ok or is that the point I'm going to need to start looking at bigger jets?
It will be fine as is but if you switch to a 2.0 then yes getting it set up and rejetted would be better.
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buy a MOT fail cordoba 16v it has all the bits
280 brakes, and ABF most inportantly
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HELP! I've just spent a leisurely evening stripping, cleaning and rebuilding my weber. Now all back together but the choke bracket cam seems loose. I realise that the rotational movement will be controlled by the choke cable but it seems to have lateral movement. Is that right? I can't remember how secure it was before. The grub screw is done right up. Am also wondering, when the choke is fully disengaged does the choke cam touch the throttle linkage? Or is there a slight gap and it only comes into contact with the throttle linkage under part choke? All help appreciated as like a Pratt I didn't photograph/mark anything up before taking it apart!