GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk2 => Topic started by: bmouthboyo on 23 January 2011, 21:45
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Hello,
I appologise in advance for this long post but the more info I give hopefully will enable me to fix this.
I bought a T25 camper van 2 years ago from eBay in a poor state but running. It had been sat off road for 5 years prior. It had previously had engine replaced with a K-Jet DX engine (Mechanical Injection) of which I know very little about.
I did some engine work such as replacing manifold (complete b*tch!), new head gasket, head skimmed, plugs, oil, filters etc. This was about a year and a half ago now and after all the work the engine started up, sounded a little rickety but to be expected without being used properly for so long. I then had a problem with the coolant system, non engine related and when winter came it kinda took a back seat for a year.
This summer I tried to start it but it just wont start, even though nothing has been tampered with since last year when it would. It cranks over and occasionally splutters but without help adding more fuel to pistons just cranks over and doesn't even seem to be trying to fire up.
If I manually lift the metering flap, fuel does come out of the injectors (albeit one seems temperamental in its spray pattern) so fuel is being delivered. If I manually lift the flap with the air hose housing off the metering head I can hear the screech of the k-jet injectors, if i then try starting with hose re attached it kind of splutters a little but wont fire up. It seems the manually added fuel helps but doesn't start it. :angry:
I am thinking it must be one of these:
- Intake hosing not air tight and loosing suction needed to lift metering flap correctly
- Metering head needs attention / calibrating as too much resistance to lift flap
- Injectors need replacing / not delivering fuel consistently/equally
- Coil needs replacing? (old)
My main reason for posting is firstly to see if I am on the right track, and also receive any advice on what I should be checking / replacing and in what order.
Any help much appreciated, Thanks :)
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try cranking it as you manually lift them metering head flap, if you're good you can get it to run for a bit like that :grin:
this will rule out fuel delivery, and then you would move onto issues with the intake system and 5th injector. does the 5th injector spray fuel when it cranks over for a few seconds when stone cold?
next check the flap in the meterin head is flush with the narrowest part of the code at the front edge (i.e. edge closest to the fuel metering part).
Oh and other thing, is the metering head 100% level,?
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Hey Rub thanks for replying.
I have not actually tested the 5th injector yet but will do when I get the van to my new place next week.
I have a few questions if it's ok to run by anyone.
Firstly my K Jet DX engine has what looks like custom (DIY) fuel lines going from the metering head to the injectors. It feels rigid/solid like a brake pipe, could these be replaced easily with braided ones?
Am I right in thinking that I could replace the injectors if faulty with Mercedes Bosch Injectors like this [url]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360271404659&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT[url]
Secondly to test my K Jet system I am assuming I would need a fuel pressure tester. Can anyone point me in the right direction of a cheap option that will work with my setup?
For reference this is what engine looks like. Sorry state I know :(
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/bossman187uk/DSC_0218.jpg)
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if you can get lines the right length then yep you can use flexi braided ones. trouble with yours id the metering head is miles away! 16v might work the early ones come with braided lines and the later 16v have hard metal lines which with careful bending may be adaptable to your bay?
the mercedes injectors will only work if you have the coarse thread injectors on there, the later 8v and 2.0 16v had a finer thread pitch. mk2 16v likes are all coarse thread though, another reason to possibly go for them if they'll reach
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OK so my van is now at my new place so more time to sort problems with this non staring engine.
Today I did the following:
- Checked inlet hose for any cracks allowing un-metered air in
- Swapped metering head with another I had laying about
- Removed injectors to test spraying
- Removed 5th injector to test spraying
I swapped the metering head first of all as the cylinders looked stone dry when cranking. There is definitely pressure their, fuel in eye to prove it lol!
With the other metering head on It still would not start, however lifting the flap manually and cranking would cause injectors to spray a pretty healthy amount (flap 95% open).
See Vid>>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blyxMN28bow (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blyxMN28bow)
I will check them for volume and cone etc soon but at least they are delivering some fuel. However with the inlet hosing attached the natural suction pressure of the engine on crank is not causing them to deliver at all. Is this normal?
I checked the 5th injector. Not spraying on crank. Fuel is being delivered, high pressure when undoing fuel line to it.
Bridged the terminals on the Thermotime switch. Still not spraying on crank.
Now my problem is that someone who had the motor previously has done a very DIY job on the wiring. As a result the wiring does not use the fixings on the loom and instead he has added his own with spades. Why, I do not know. However when I last had an auto sparky do some work he rewired a little so it needed a fuel pump relay as whoever had it before had wired it to a switch (guessing couldn't be arsed / afford a relay) that manually turned the pump on and off.
This is how the cold start injector is wired in my motor:
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/bossman187uk/ColdStart.jpg)
I have no idea if it's right, but bridging the terminals going to the thermotimer is meant to make the cold start spray on crank but it is not. I am going to buy a mulimeter and learn how to test the current to see if its the injector, but my guess is it's the shoddy electrics.
Sorry for long post. So questions:
- Should the main injectors spray with the engines natural suction on crank?
- If so would a faulty cold start injector cause them to not spray under natural pressure of crank as it needs that little fireup the 5th causes?
- Is the wiring in my diagram wrong?
- Any advice on what to test next?
Thankyou for all your help
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get a plug on thecold start injectors and give it 12v direct from battery when crancking, that'll get it going if not it's spark
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I am completly new to electrics. How would I get 12V? 2 terminals on one of those rectangle batteries that go in toys etc?lol
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I am completly new to electrics. How would I get 12V? 2 terminals on one of those rectangle batteries that go in toys etc?lol
You just need to bypass the Thermotime switch as this is interupting the feed... another small point, currently my 5th injector is out of action and although the car may take slightly longer to start when cold, it still starts fine, even in minus temps it starts without it. I don't think the 5th injector is your main problem.
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I did bypass the thermotime switch and nothing, I am checking if the DIY wiring is correct. I'll eleminate teh cold start valve then go from there. I swapped the metering head and if I manually lift the flap it does deliver fuel (see video above). I am not sure why the engines crank suction pressure is not enough to life the metering head to give even a little fuel.
Not sure where do go from here :(
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I did bypass the thermotime switch and nothing, I am checking if the DIY wiring is correct. I'll eleminate teh cold start valve then go from there. I swapped the metering head and if I manually lift the flap it does deliver fuel (see video above). I am not sure why the engines crank suction pressure is not enough to life the metering head to give even a little fuel.
Not sure where do go from here :(
I would have looked at vid but cant at the mo as at work.... you've defo got a spark?
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Like Shaun said in your other thread about the core plug, I'd be testing compression just in case. Only takes a few mins and might end up saving you hours of fault finding in other areas.
I don't think the cooling system needs to be full of water to cause damage when it freezes.
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no you dont bypass the thermotime switch, that wont work. you need to take the wire from the 5th injector out of the plug and earth it, that will rule out the thermoswitch. basically its the path to ground for the 5th injector, it earths the wire thru itself to the block. the 2nd wire is a heater which is fed from the starter cranking live, so the path to ground is broken if it cranks over for ages, so as to not flood the engine.
apart from that your diagram above is correct, next step would be to test if the 2nd terminal on the starter actually goes live when cranking, use a test light if you dont ahve a starter motor. 1 terminal to the starter, the other to earth somewhere.
to bridge 5th injectro, put 1 wire to battery +ve, and the other to battery -ve. crank it over and it should spray fuel, if there isnt enough pressure in the lines already when you bridge it :)
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Hi rubjonny thankyou for the help.
I am al ittle confused, the diagram above is how the previous owner has wired my engine. Is it wrong?
Bridging the thermotimer wires was what the haynes manual said to do to test the 5th injector. Does it matter which way round the wires are on the 5th injector and thermotimer?
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the picture is fine :)
haynes has got the test wrong, you deffo dont bridge the pins as you would just end up with live to both sides of the 5th injector, you need to earth the wire from the 5th inj to the thermoswitch to bypas it :)
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Ok guys I had a go at a compression test with engine COLD (doesn't start). Now their may have been a little fuel in the cylinders but by the last one they looked dry when i shone torch in.
Results from year and half ago: 143 - 151 - 151 - 153
Results from today (may have had little fuel in cylinder): 154 - 192 - 170 - 180
2nd time: 130 - 160 - 140 - 172
3rd time: 150 - 154 - 140 - 170
I had the head skimmed and new gasket I think after the test a year and half ago.
Does this look like a problem? And could it be causing my non start? On another thread I posted about a core plug that seems to have come out, but as I have hardly any coolant (water) in the system I am surprised if it was ice so wondered if Head Gasket?
I also checked the 5th Injector by earthing the wire that would go into the thermotimer as in my diagram. But this again did not cause the cold start to spray on crank. Will test with multimeter when I have mine delivered.
Any ideas no what to do next? Are those compression tests worrying?
Thanks
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Ok so I checked a few things when home from work today (roll on longer summer days)
I firstly checked the timing was all ok and if it is causing low compression results and non start. All seemed ok following rj's timing guide.
My markings:
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/bossman187uk/MtTimingMarks.jpg)
Now as this is in a T25 camper I think the gear box is the original diesel one, but I know very little about it etc. But looking through the service catch I can not see 6Degree BTDC marking. I am also not entirely sure the tippex mark is the TDC as I may have marked that last year just to ensure it is all the same when refitting head.
When looking at my crank pulley marks it didn't seem to match up at all with the one on the plastic casing:
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/bossman187uk/DSC04939-1.jpg)
I also checked one of my spark clubs to see if it has a strong spark. (tested on crank):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjZirpmw0VY
I realised after that I was meant to have it touching the block. Does this make this test useless? If not does that spark look to be working correctly. I thought it seemed a little weak and irregular. I have ordered some new HT leads as need replacing anyway and will to Rotor Arm, Dizzy cap and possibly coil if you think its needed?
So questions :
Is my timing correct?
How will I set to 6 Degree BTDC without the marking on flywheel?
Matter that my crank pulley is not lined up with the mark?
Does the spark from spark plug look fine?
I know this is a bit of a long thread but I am really great full for all your help so far.
Thanks :smiley:
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Compressions seem low :undecided:
You might be better to lift the head and have a look.
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Hi Wayne,
Lift the head and look for what? I had it removed last year to have exhaust stud removed and had head skimmed. It has only run a little in idle over a year ago just after refitting it. For the past year and half it has sat still. I am a little reluctant to remove it at this stage as that's another gasket, head bolts (£50) and at moment I cannot even get it started. Once I get it going I will consider removing head if after doing compression test at running temp they are still low.
Any idea regarding questions above?
Cheers
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remove plug number one and poke a rod down the hole and rock the cranck back and forth see if the rod drops ether side of what you currently think is TDC,
if it dosent use the rod to roughtly find whitch TDC mark is colsest and then use that, the worry is that as the timeing marks on the frount pully and and the flywheel don't agree so in such situations it's best to physicaly check where the pistons are
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Hi Danny,
Sorry I should have said that I did that and it feels like it is at TDC. What I might do tomorrow is turn the crank so the crank pulley mark lines up with the arrow and look to see if any marks are showing on the flywheel.
However what can I do about not being able to set engine at 6d BTDC ? Is there any other way without using the flywheel markings for it?
Does the video I posted show a good spark?
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Hi Danny,
Sorry I should have said that I did that and it feels like it is at TDC. What I might do tomorrow is turn the crank so the crank pulley mark lines up with the arrow and look to see if any marks are showing on the flywheel.
However what can I do about not being able to set engine at 6d BTDC ? Is there any other way without using the flywheel markings for it?
Does the video I posted show a good spark?
Yes looks ok :smiley:
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spark looks fine to me.
reason i' don't like the fact that the timeing makks on flywheel and frount pully don't like up is that they allways should iirc on a T25 the mark is in the flywheel itself and it can only go round one way so the frount v belt pully is prob on in the wrong place not a magor issue but anoying. so just worth a check can save headbanging
if there ok, you have spark, you have enough compression, fire easy start at it if it dosent go spark timeing is out.
sometimes i find the easyest way to get these engines going well enough to time them up is just to remove plug number 1, set the engine to tdc and just wiggel the dizzt back and forth so plug number sparks,
then put the plug back in and gently move the dizzy about while cranking, if the engine coughs and pauses when cranking it's to advance if it fires but won't self sustain or very reluctnt to rev it's to retarded
to set it to 6 btdc you'll be needing an addjustable timeing gun set it to 6 deg adavnce and when the tdc marks line up in the strobe it's 6 degrees advanced
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Typical, I ordered a cheap (£17) timing light2 days ago, non adjustable :(
I will be cleaning the fuel system, tank etc soon and filling it with some fresh fuel due to time it has been sitting.
Even with the not great compression it should at leasat try to fire up hopefully. I'' update when progress made.
Thanks guys
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http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=179338.0
:lipsrsealed:
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http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=179338.0
:lipsrsealed:
My engine is a DX so parts wise wont work? I have asked about the injectors. Would they fit?
I am in dorset. If I was ever to need a new engine would a swap from a DX to a PB be easy?
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the PB block is the same as the DX one, but nothing else in the list will be any good for you :)
if you can get some kind of TDC mark on the flywheel you can make your own BTDC mark using a bit of maths, though you need to know the diameter of the flywheel. if its similarsize to a 210mm mk2 flywheel then you can use the MK2 EV measurements in the haynes manual.
but tbh with these once the static timing is sorted you can tune em by ear, give em more advance then drive, repeat till it starts to pink then back off.
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ah thats good news rj!
I will try and find out more about the gearbox from the T25 forums and the original vehical documents.
I was also wondering if I could use piston travell instead of degree on flywheel. I.e measure when piston 1 drops the specific distance and use that. All irrelevent at moment until I get it running anyway so will report back.
This weekend I am going to:
- Flush fuel tank with ample fresh fuel
- Remove the grotty small inline filter (btw is it ok to do this? I read that Kjet has a small in-line filter before the pump but many people on forums said rid of it???)
- Adjust the CO screw on the metering head to make it a little richer / hopefully deliver fuel on crank.
- If mulitmeter is here in time I will check electrics for 5th injector, thermotimer, WURand the extra air valve thingy
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mk2s dont use an inline filter, but they do have a little mesh thingy on the end of the in-tank pump. this could well be the cause of all your problems if there is no lifter pump in the tank, the main pump might be struggling to suck fuel thru the filter?
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The tank is the original T25 one with the outlet at the bottom. I will tear the old gammy filter off:
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/bossman187uk/DSC04904.jpg)
I was guessing that because fuel was being delivered when manually lifting the air meter flap that the pump must be fine but I guess it can still pump it with less pressure, just needs the flap lifted higher.
I'll get that little filter off, was just worried that 7 years of fuel tank nearly empty might have a lot of crap I want to stay away from the pump and metering head! But I guess the main filter will do a good job of stopping anything too nasty.
Thanks
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Ok a productive day...
I replaced the HT leads as they were a little scabby, distrbutor cap and rotor arm.
At GSF they gave me a different rotor arm. I asked them to double check, DX enging K jet etc etc and they said it was right part.
The one on when I got the van is the fatter one. Will this make a difference? I am thinking might just keep old one on.
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/bossman187uk/DSC04969.jpg)
Anyway after a bloody age getting the injectors back into there collets ( angle of engine in T25 is not pleasing for this) I adjusted the CO2 screw on the metering head progressively and.... She bloody started :):)
A very rough idle and had a little white smoke which smelt of petrol.
I wanted to remove the crap mini in-line filter but the 8mm fuel hose I ordered wont work as the filter to tank is 8mm but the inlet on the pump is much bigger. I am assuming a 12mm ?
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/bossman187uk/DSC04961.jpg)
So new Questions:
Should I use the larger rotor arm of the smaller one from GSF?
When setting the CO2 on a K Jet, do I simply keep making the mix leaner until it wont start then a very small amount richer untill it does? (obviously needs co2 meter but for time being)
How would I install a fuel hose from the 12mm pump inlet to the 8mm fuel tank fixing?
Thank you All :)
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The difference in the rotor arms is that the larger one is a rev cutting version, smaller one should be fine but if your looking for a rev limit then fit the bigger one.
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as above, on the smaller rotor arm cars the rev limiter is built into the fuel pump relay
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any advice regarding the 8mm tank outlet to the larger 12mm pump inlet? and the co2 adjustment?
Thanks